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Message started by Dan on Jan 16th, 2013 at 11:30am

Title: Distances...
Post by Dan on Jan 16th, 2013 at 11:30am
So, I'll utilize this new section. What do yall think the best distances would be for a slinging competition?

IMO, I wouldn't go out too far as some people don't have the room to practice at greater distances so we should keep it sub 50 yards (or 46 meters for you conformers  ;) )

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by Steven on Jan 16th, 2013 at 1:40pm
I would be inclined to use effective bow hunting ranges for most shots; 20 yards or less.

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by LightSlinger on Jan 16th, 2013 at 2:07pm

Dan wrote on Jan 16th, 2013 at 11:30am:
So, I'll utilize this new section. What do yall think the best distances would be for a slinging competition?

IMO, I wouldn't go out too far as some people don't have the room to practice at greater distances so we should keep it sub 50 yards (or 46 meters for you conformers  ;) )


Stay posted for the upcoming standards (see the new sticky topic "ranking and merit award system upcoming" for details).

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by curious_aardvark on Jan 17th, 2013 at 7:39am
20 - 30 yards maximum.

For small scale targets (ie: smaller than an elephant/mammoth) that's  a pretty decent distance.
And one where the power versus accuracy escalation starts to really kick in.  

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by LightSlinger on Jan 17th, 2013 at 8:17am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Jan 17th, 2013 at 7:39am:
20 - 30 yards maximum.

For small scale targets (ie: smaller than an elephant/mammoth) that's  a pretty decent distance.
And one where the power versus accuracy escalation starts to really kick in.  


Ain't that the truth?  I have a feeling I'm going to give out very few awards for accuracy level 4.  I won't ever see it anyway, I'm pretty sure!

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by Dan on Jan 17th, 2013 at 8:46am
I was just stating 50 yards as a definite Baseline.

I'd prefer 10-20 yards now. Maybe 25 in a few years.  :)

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by Brett on Jan 17th, 2013 at 9:58am

         # of Shots             Distance           White Zone         Black Zone          Score Needed
Level 1:       20                   15 Meters              1                     2                  1-19
Level 2:       20                   20 Meters              2                     4                  20-29
Level 3:       20                   25 Meters             2.5                   5                 30-39
Level 4:       20                   30 Meters              3                     6                  40+      
(Master)


Why do you get more points for hits at longer range?  Clearly because they are harder to achieve.  OK... So essentially a hit at 30 meters is three times as hard/valuable as a hit at 15 meters.  Sounds about right.  Well done.

Question - if the above is a fairly adjusted grading system, why not allow any range or combination of ranges to qualify for each rank.  In other words, if you can land 20/20 shots on black at 15 meters, that should be a score of 40, and count the same as 10 blacks at 20.

Right?  In simple terms we should dis-attach the scores required from the ranges - 1-19 is always level 1, 40+ is always level 4 plus, etc...

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by curious_aardvark on Jan 17th, 2013 at 2:03pm

Brett wrote on Jan 17th, 2013 at 9:58am:
         # of Shots             Distance           White Zone         Black Zone          Score Needed
Level 1:       20                   15 Meters              1                     2                  1-19
Level 2:       20                   20 Meters              2                     4                  20-29
Level 3:       20                   25 Meters             2.5                   5                 30-39
Level 4:       20                   30 Meters              3                     6                  40+      
(Master)


Why do you get more points for hits at longer range?  Clearly because they are harder to achieve.  OK... So essentially a hit at 30 meters is three times as hard/valuable as a hit at 15 meters.  Sounds about right.  Well done.

Question - if the above is a fairly adjusted grading system, why not allow any range or combination of ranges to qualify for each rank.  In other words, if you can land 20/20 shots on black at 15 meters, that should be a score of 40, and count the same as 10 blacks at 20.

Right?  In simple terms we should dis-attach the scores required from the ranges - 1-19 is always level 1, 40+ is always level 4 plus, etc...


Good point. If we are using a points system - then points is points.
Works for me :-)

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by Dan on Jan 17th, 2013 at 2:58pm
Would it be easier if we just used two distances?

Say 20 for levels 1 and 2

and 25 for levels 3 and 4

I've done a ton of target throwing at 15 yards and some at 20 and I know my hit count is way lower than it is closer ranges when I back up to twenty. That and not every might have access to 38 yards of land to see if they qualify for master.

Or just have the points count as the same for this distances. And your level is dertermined by how well you keep that score at a greater distance....

Tough decisions, I see why this hasn't really taken off before.  :)

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by LightSlinger on Jan 17th, 2013 at 4:36pm

Brett wrote on Jan 17th, 2013 at 9:58am:
         # of Shots             Distance           White Zone         Black Zone          Score Needed
Level 1:       20                   15 Meters              1                     2                  1-19
Level 2:       20                   20 Meters              2                     4                  20-29
Level 3:       20                   25 Meters             2.5                   5                 30-39
Level 4:       20                   30 Meters              3                     6                  40+      
(Master)


Why do you get more points for hits at longer range?  Clearly because they are harder to achieve.  OK... So essentially a hit at 30 meters is three times as hard/valuable as a hit at 15 meters.  Sounds about right.  Well done.

Question - if the above is a fairly adjusted grading system, why not allow any range or combination of ranges to qualify for each rank.  In other words, if you can land 20/20 shots on black at 15 meters, that should be a score of 40, and count the same as 10 blacks at 20.

Right?  In simple terms we should dis-attach the scores required from the ranges - 1-19 is always level 1, 40+ is always level 4 plus, etc...


Well, the problem is that I'm not entirely certain what the formula is for increased distance and difficulty.  I was "eyeballing" it.  I have a feeling that its not just twice as difficult at 30 meters than at 15.  It maybe much more difficult..  Course that only justifies the "points are points" concept..  I'll have to noodle that one a bit.

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by squirrelslinger on Jan 17th, 2013 at 5:10pm
I like this system....
But one problem.
some of us are not allowed to post vids of themselves....
Could i just set the camera so it records... the target?
and/or just set it up so it does not get me into the video?
Despite the new camera.....
I cannot post videos.....

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by LightSlinger on Jan 17th, 2013 at 5:26pm

squirrelslinger wrote on Jan 17th, 2013 at 5:10pm:
I like this system....
But one problem.
some of us are not allowed to post vids of themselves....
Could i just set the camera so it records... the target?
and/or just set it up so it does not get me into the video?
Despite the new camera.....
I cannot post videos.....


Any or all of the above are okay.  This whole system is based on the honor system ultimately so, worst case scenario = you tell me you did something and I assume you are telling the truth.  It's that simple.  

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by squirrelslinger on Jan 17th, 2013 at 6:09pm
I will definitly at least provide pics.
If i can, I will set up a wooden target so you all can see the impacts on the target as they hit.
Are we allowed to use shotgun slings?

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by LightSlinger on Jan 17th, 2013 at 8:27pm

squirrelslinger wrote on Jan 17th, 2013 at 6:09pm:
I will definitly at least provide pics.
If i can, I will set up a wooden target so you all can see the impacts on the target as they hit.
Are we allowed to use shotgun slings?


Nope.  No shotgun slings! Lol.  Check out the "hand sling" definition in the requirements for accuracy.  Maybe I need to specify that only one projectile should be thrown at a time.  Good question Squirrel!  Thanks!

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by squirrelslinger on Jan 18th, 2013 at 5:45pm
I think you should...
I am already working on accuracy....

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by Brett on Jan 18th, 2013 at 7:31pm
Suggestion for standardization of point values at different ranges:
 
1) get a number of people (at least 10) to throw 20 stones from each distance.  
2) have them report their scores (e.g. Bob: 15:12, 20:11, 25:6, 30:3).  For this trial, I'd score as bullseye=2, other hit=1 at all ranges.
3) sum the scores and determine the ratio of point values for each range.  For example, if the average was 20 points at 15 yards and 10 points at 30 yards, then you need to double the 30 yard valuesrelative to the 20 yard point values.

I am kind of a statistics person, so if enough people could submit scores I could figure out a "fair" point value at each range based on actual hits and misses rather than estimation.

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by woodssj on Jan 18th, 2013 at 9:11pm
Why not say 'x hits, minimum y in the black?' For score keeping, use two columns, s in 7/10?  Scored as black/total hits of twenty shots?  Then you're not worried about making point values match possible scores with a minimum bullseye requirement, and it's very clear.  In that case, it could even be from all one range, set by the Singer, who simply has to state same. Or, a set interval such as twenty meters, which we all seem to think is decent. Or fifty. Or seventeen.

Another approach would be to have one score as above, set at, say, 5/10.
But, the backboard stays steady, as does range, while the bull shriks by 10 cm per level?

If we're all throwing around solutions to a problem someone poured their time and effort into for us as a set of universal standards and regulations to play by, then I thought I would throw my tuppence in the ring.
However, as I respect the work that was done in forming these, I gladly support Lightslinger's original plan, and think you should have volunteered to assist if you thought so strongly on the subject.
By the by, as soon as I can get at the stones here in NH, I will put myself to the test, lightslinger. I really like the way you set it up.

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by LightSlinger on Jan 18th, 2013 at 10:22pm
Thank you woodssj.  I look forward to the results of your testing!

  All these are Good ideas of course..

  However, While I was working up the accuracy standards C_A made it clear that he would like a scoring system that was at least comparable to either the Balaeric system or the German system or both so that we had a reasonable amount of commutability between the slinging groups.  I would agree with him.  That's why the accuracy requirements were written as they were.  
   Now, understand that I'm not adverse to change and don't mind making said changes, but I think that for now, I will be mostly focused on getting the system into an immediately functional shape.  We can tweak and adjust as necessary if it seems that it might work better to do so.  
   I would be more than interested to see someone use all the above systems (including the current one), and draw some concrete scientific conclusions from the experiment.  Try to use multiple people if possible and see which one seems to work best, and post your findings!  (Good way to earn a level or two in the "Physicist" merit by the way...)

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by LightSlinger on Jan 20th, 2013 at 4:22am

LightSlinger wrote on Jan 17th, 2013 at 8:27pm:

squirrelslinger wrote on Jan 17th, 2013 at 6:09pm:
I will definitly at least provide pics.
If i can, I will set up a wooden target so you all can see the impacts on the target as they hit.
Are we allowed to use shotgun slings?


Nope.  No shotgun slings! Lol.  Check out the "hand sling" definition in the requirements for accuracy.  Maybe I need to specify that only one projectile should be thrown at a time.  Good question Squirrel!  Thanks!



Okay, Accuracy Requirements have been updated to reflect one projectile at a time..

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by curious_aardvark on Jan 20th, 2013 at 12:54pm
basically the idea is to eventually establish a true international standard for slinging as a sport. Until that happens we can't be recognised as an international sport, can't hold truly international ratifiable competitions and can't be recognised by the wider world and other sporting organisations as an official worldwide sport.

We can't ignore the balearic slinging federation, nor do i want to. Likewise jaegoor has set up a pretty sensible slinging group in germany. We're a marginal enough group that the only way we're ever going to get any kind of accreditation is to all pull together.

I'm probably too old to make a future olympic slinging team - but for some of you young whipper snappers,  hey what we're doing here might give you a shot at an olympic games 20 or 30 years down the line.

I can dream :-)

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by LightSlinger on Jan 20th, 2013 at 4:48pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Jan 20th, 2013 at 12:54pm:
basically the idea is to eventually establish a true international standard for slinging as a sport. Until that happens we can't be recognised as an international sport, can't hold truly international ratifiable competitions and can't be recognised by the wider world and other sporting organisations as an official worldwide sport.

We can't ignore the balearic slinging federation, nor do i want to. Likewise jaegoor has set up a pretty sensible slinging group in germany. We're a marginal enough group that the only way we're ever going to get any kind of accreditation is to all pull together.

I'm probably too old to make a future olympic slinging team - but for some of you young whipper snappers,  hey what we're doing here might give you a shot at an olympic games 20 or 30 years down the line.

I can dream :-)


Yep I'm right there with ya.  I would love to see the art flourish again and really, I think it's just a matter of time.  

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by Pikåru on Jan 24th, 2013 at 12:53am
Ditto.

No matter what is deemed as the final rules, we should stick to the time tested system of K.I.S.S. Keep It Sane & Simple.

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by squirrelslinger on Feb 11th, 2013 at 12:54am
What? I thought it was Keep It Super Simple!
Anyway, I would like to say i think 15, 20 and 25 yards. I know I cannot nail ANY target at 25 yards... my slinging area barely is 25 yards wide!
it is about 50-60 yards long. If I sling from the trail, it is closer to 80.
I cannot sling length, houses and a road on the side. one mess up is all it takes!
-Squirrel
oh, and I might be able to post vids!

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by LightSlinger on Feb 11th, 2013 at 3:15am

squirrelslinger wrote on Feb 11th, 2013 at 12:54am:
What? I thought it was Keep It Super Simple!
Anyway, I would like to say i think 15, 20 and 25 yards. I know I cannot nail ANY target at 25 yards... my slinging area barely is 25 yards wide!
it is about 50-60 yards long. If I sling from the trail, it is closer to 80.
I cannot sling length, houses and a road on the side. one mess up is all it takes!
-Squirrel
oh, and I might be able to post vids!


   For purposes of testing your accuracy, there's a consideration many might not realize here.  There is no restriction on the type of ammunition you use.  I primarily sling Tennis balls because I live in the city and can't afford to replace broken windows, walls, heads, etc.  Plus I have limited range because of my environment.  So the tennis ball is perfect ammo for me to play with.  And there's no reason that I couldn't try for accuracy merits using them.  I can quite easily sling a tennis ball 30 meters without much drift.  But, if you're used to something heavier, like stones and the like, you can use the Rusty Sling Balls as an awesome alternative type of safety ammo.  


Title: Re: Distances...
Post by curious_aardvark on Feb 11th, 2013 at 9:31am
nah it's: keep it simple, stupid

Although I prefer: keep it sane and simple :thumb:

Yep any sling, though you will find shorter slings are more accurate, any ammo, any Style.

The main difference between us and the balearics is that we aren't going to tell you how to sling, just what to sling at :-)

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by squirrelslinger on Feb 12th, 2013 at 3:17pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Feb 11th, 2013 at 9:31am:
nah it's: keep it simple, stupid

Although I prefer: keep it sane and simple :thumb:

Yep any sling, though you will find shorter slings are more accurate, any ammo, any Style.

The main difference between us and the balearics is that we aren't going to tell you how to sling, just what to sling at :-)

hm... I could mention a few members...

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by Pikåru on Feb 13th, 2013 at 10:32pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Feb 11th, 2013 at 9:31am:
nah it's: keep it simple, stupid

Although I prefer: keep it sane and simple :thumb:

Yep any sling, though you will find shorter slings are more accurate, any ammo, any Style.

The main difference between us and the balearics is that we aren't going to tell you how to sling, just what to sling at :-)


Always hated the "stupid". Stupid is as stupid does. Now 'sane and simple', there's something I could get behind.  :)

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by vonuberoydawg on Mar 29th, 2013 at 4:57pm
I know I am BRAND NEW to this forum, but I was interested in throwing my input in anyway, and seeing how it went...  I am on the USBA blowgun forum, and they have an interesting system of scoring that I think could be applied to slinging.  Traditionally they use a target, 3 rings, with points, etc... but they also have another system for distance accuracy competition that I think could apply here, but modified.  For this distance accuracy competition, they have a set size target with no markings, just a simple circle, and each contestant has 3 shots to hit the target at 10m, if they hit it even once, they move on to the next round, for the next round, they get another 3 shots, but the distance is increased by 1m.  Each successful round is an additional 1m back, till all contestants miss 3 times.  I don't know how a tie would work, maybe a sudden death elimination after that, but, just thought it might be something to consider.  

The other thing I would like to mention, is if the ammunition size is not regulated, I could technically sling a beachball sized object and have  MUCH greater chance of hitting a target, even on a bounce and get points.  I feel as mentioned before, there should be some limitations, i.e. between 1g and 500g  between .5" and 5" even if they are wide ranges, just so that people don't try to take advantage of the system, and come up with ridiculous things that are still "within the rules" because there are no limitations at all.

Again, just my 2 cents, and sorry if some of this was already covered, I am new and have not had time to read many of the great threads that could already have covered my seemingly new information.

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by LightSlinger on Mar 31st, 2013 at 7:29am
   Actually, that type of scoring/accuracy system was considered.  There was a point where the system called for making a certain number of shots, then moving back a certain number of paces, etc.  

   With a blowgun, that's a great system for a number of reasons.  

   Once you've got your aim right, and the power right, you could create pretty tight groupings pretty easily.  The blowgun, by it's nature, does a lot of the physics work for accuracy for you.  It has an aiming reference point, a straight tube that makes your projectile fly straight and exactly where you aim it, and the projectiles fly very straight once leaving the barrel because they are darts.  So, moving back a bit after a hit makes sense.  By doing so you are changing some variables (Angle neccessary to shoot on and breath strength to use to counter the increased distance) that add to the difficulty of the task, thereby making it more of a challenge.

   Now, I dont know how long you've been slinging for, but if you've thrown for even a week or so, then you probably know what a high learning curve there is.  There is a Slinger out there who likes to say "A Sling is a dependant weapon, relying on you for basically everything but mechanical advantage"

   I've been slinging for a little under a year (and pretty regularly) and still sometimes have a hard time hitting targets at 10 meters.  If you could chart the number of hits scored following a system like you mentioned on a line graph, I think that after the first move back, you would see a pretty drastic drop in accuracy.  Even if it was only 5 meters!   This is because the Sling's is, by it's very nature, very difficult to master.

   There are so many variables in play with a Sling that the added difficulty is just not necessary.  So, for competitions, we just use two distances and that’s enough to keep you challenged for a lifetime!

   And as far as someone taking advantage of the rules for personal gain…  “Dishonest Artists only Dishonor Themselves…”   Let someone get high accuracy scores with their beach ball.  They’re the only ones looking stupid in the end!  Also, I’m the Slinger who awards the merits.  If I feel that a Slinger has violated the Spirit of the system, I simply will not grant the award…

   I hope that puts your mind at ease!  And welcome to the Community.  It's always awesome when new members get involved!


Title: Re: Distances...
Post by vonuberoydawg on Apr 1st, 2013 at 1:40pm
That pretty much took care of most of my concerns, yeah :) I guess I either missed that part of the discussion or I didn't understand what I had read that it had already been considered, so sorry for the duplicate response.  Also, if you are awarding the merits in the spirit of the art then it eliminates most of the problem with what I had mentioned.  I am not normally one to take advantage of such things, however, I do enjoy doing the mental exercise sometimes and thinking outside the box, but inside the confines of the rules, just to see where it might lead me.  It helps me sometimes to figure out many possibilities and then narrow down what will work best for me, and there are bound to be people sooner or later who want to take advantage, and therefore just thought I would bring up the concern I had about it.  I am excited to be part of the community, and though I don't have much time right now, I am happy to be trying out new things, and experimenting with my slinging capabilities.  I will have to try more accuracy based slinging with some better projectiles, ie golf ball, or something more consistent than crushed bluestone (not very effective) and see what I come up with at those distances.

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by LightSlinger on Apr 2nd, 2013 at 1:03am
Ah, you only missed it because it was happening on a couple seperate threads over a space of years my friend!  You're not the only one to bring up already discussed topics, trust me..  I've been guilty myself!  LOL.  We just love that you're invested!  Keep em coming!

Title: Re: Distances...
Post by LightSlinger on Apr 2nd, 2013 at 1:59pm
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