Slinging.org Forum
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl
General >> General Slinging Discussion >> The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at once
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1341076163

Message started by jlasud on Jun 30th, 2012 at 1:09pm

Title: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at once
Post by jlasud on Jun 30th, 2012 at 1:09pm
So mostly Jaegoor and others are convinced that 30g lead glans might have been used as multiple shot.I find this idea plausible,mostly because those weights are less than ideal for slinging them one at a time. And ancient slingers might have been generally smaller than today's average,still not THAT small to sling 30g glans at once.Another guy thinks they were shot from double roped,pouched ballistas,as shot from a shotgun.In the name of experimental archeology,as it seems that no one really tried this,made this,i had to do it.It was too interesting to me,to let this mystery keep floating around.So here's a gang mould that's supposed to yield 9 lead glans per cast tree ,each in around 30g,of relatively uniform weight. IF all goes well.So far here's the progress:
Olom_006.jpg (36 KB | )

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jun 30th, 2012 at 1:11pm
Made like this: With the beeswax positive pushed into a block of clay,then sifted charcoal powder over,as parting powder,then another block of clay with sand mixed in it is pushed over it.
Olom_001.jpg (49 KB | )

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jun 30th, 2012 at 1:13pm
Just like a couple thousand years ago...here's the archeological find,after i've modelled mine
lead_shot-trees.jpg (31 KB | )

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jun 30th, 2012 at 3:04pm
Here's a sling with 3x 50g incriptioned glans Multishots remain to be tested tommorow.
Olom_003_001.jpg (44 KB | )

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by perpetualstudent on Jun 30th, 2012 at 3:09pm
That's really cool!

Edit: are you going to try to use a gourd or bottle sling with them as well?

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by David Morningstar on Jun 30th, 2012 at 3:19pm

Damn, those look good! I suppose you fired the clay moulds before pouring the lead... did you melt out the wax first, lost-wax style?

I do not doubt that 30g glandes were used singly. Any attempt to use multiple projectiles always results in wide sprays that would be uselessly dispersed at 50 yards never mind 500.

My hypothesis is that the light ammo weight was to allow each peltast to carry more shots for a given weight. These guys were all about mobility and would have had to run full pelt for hundreds of yards to get into and out of their shooting positions as the battle developed.


Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jun 30th, 2012 at 3:38pm
The molds are just drying clay with sand temper.Tomorrow i'll try to get them fired,and if i succeed,ill cast some lead in it. The wax is pushed between to blocks,and the 2 part mould is taken apart,the wax taken out.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Yurek on Jun 30th, 2012 at 3:42pm
Very nice bonsai tree, Jlasud! I am also sure that your little nice glandes could be sent pretty far one by one. Your sling on the picture seems to be able to do it. I am sure you will try them singly too.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jun 30th, 2012 at 3:51pm
One by one too..

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Dan on Jun 30th, 2012 at 3:57pm
That's Beast! I think another reason they were small is if your enemy is relatively spread out, three out of four 1 oz glands that hit are going to hurt a lot more than one 4 oz gland that misses.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jun 30th, 2012 at 4:03pm
Yep..I wonder how much kilo lead would they have given per slinger,in different battles 2-3 kilogramms is what i would imagine.Cast in 30g that would mean 66 shot in 2 kilogramms ,that sounds very economic.Yet still does hurt..but if you can slung them 2-3 at a time?

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Thearos on Jul 1st, 2012 at 7:50am
Three remarks

1. Very nice, first time I've seen a modern version of a "tree" mould. The alignment bosses are particularly well done.

2. I find the idea of multiple projectiles not believable. Two reasons:
a. the result will be, as DM writes, a spray of projectiles
b. the various projectiles will hit at different distances
c. You lose the great advantage of lead: super-fast projectiles going at super-long distances— this is explicitly attested, by the famous Xenophon passage, as the point of lead (you outrange stone shooters).

3. I am one of those who on this forum has mentioned "catapults", which is, of course, the correct Greek word to refer to what the Romans later called the ballista. There is one explicit attestation, in Appian's account of the siege of Athens, of the use of multiple lead proj. by catapults. So this is not speculation (like Jaegoor), but a specific ancient text.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Bill Skinner on Jul 1st, 2012 at 8:31am
There was a thread, which I can't find, about the odd shaped leather pouches used by the Greeks.  It was rectangular with lobed corners.  Would that have helped throw multiple projectiles?  

Outstanding work, I ment to compliment the mold but I got caught up in the dicussion about throwing many projectiles at once.  I would think that the mold will be rather fragile in an unfired state, how is it standing up to casting?  

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 1st, 2012 at 10:49am

Thearos wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 7:50am:
Three remarks

1. Very nice, first time I've seen a modern version of a "tree" mould. The alignment bosses are particularly well done.

2. I find the idea of multiple projectiles not believable. Two reasons:
a. the result will be, as DM writes, a spray of projectiles
b. the various projectiles will hit at different distances
c. You lose the great advantage of lead: super-fast projectiles going at super-long distances— this is explicitly attested, by the famous Xenophon passage, as the point of lead (you outrange stone shooters).

3. I am one of those who on this forum has mentioned "catapults", which is, of course, the correct Greek word to refer to what the Romans later called the ballista. There is one explicit attestation, in Appian's account of the siege of Athens, of the use of multiple lead proj. by catapults. So this is not speculation (like Jaegoor), but a specific ancient text.

I just came back after testing 3x 50g lead glans.These were my smallest ones yet.Hence the new mould.
They spread out to a triangular shape,flew about 160m (150g total weight,too heavy) and two of the 3 glans that flew horizontally went less than 40 meters apart at that distance.Slinging at an advancing army they would have had a good coverage.The distances covered by the two horizontal must have been very close,the third one on top probably hit a bit further ~20 meters. I think such a spray would have been useful on many ancient battlefields.
About point c. i agree, slinging 3 at once might give less distance,although 30g is less than ideal for most modern slingers,even with thin,light cords it puts very little tension on the cords.3x30g=90g is way more ideal. I bet 3 would travel at least that far as 1 ,if not a bit further.
3.I was thinking of another guy very into ballistas,i've seen his experiments with shooting 14 lead glans at once with 100+ m\s. It might have been done..but slinging lead is something that's known for sure,me thinks.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Rat Man on Jul 1st, 2012 at 5:58pm
Excellent work, jlasud, really.  If I were an ancient slinger using lead glandes I would probably use 30 gram ammo.  I agree that having lots of ammo would be a good thing and 30 grams slung well would certainly do serious damage to my enemies.  Think of how small a .22 bullet is.  It's much smaller than a 30 gram gland yet it can kill.  

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 2nd, 2012 at 1:32am
After a short research, .22 LR bullets are around 2 gramms and travel 330-530m\s having 141 -277 J of KE
Thats about the KE you get with a sling. That's with the common weights and decent speed.
With 30g glans and 70 m\s launch the KE is just 73.5 J.That's half of the lowest powered .22LR. Not too bright.. I prefer my standard 57g glans..at 75 m\s which is a good shot,i can get,yields 160 J. That's an average .22's KE. So small weights are fine, you just have to send them with ridiculous speeds.Humans are better at moving heavier weights slower.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by David Morningstar on Jul 2nd, 2012 at 3:42am

KE is pretty meaningless for calculating lethality. Would you want to be under a 30g bullet when it lands? Try breaking a few planks with one.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by curious_aardvark on Jul 2nd, 2012 at 7:02am
multiple glandes won't work.

You just do not get the spin necessary to self orient. you bullets would not impact end on - which is 90% of the benefit of glande shaped bullets.
It's the small, drilling impact point with the weight of the rest of the bullet behind it that causes the damage.

You just can't get that from a multiple launch (possibly with one of jaegoors multipouched slings - but can't be done with a single pouch sling).
Now if you used spherical ammo you'd get better distance for multiple shots plus better impact plus more accurate flight path.

Glandes have to be slung singly to work properly. IT's part of the design.

Got to admit though - those are some great looking glandes :thumb:

What have you got written on them ?  

As for how many you'd carry.
well given that 8-10 shots a minute is easily acheivable by even a moderately skilled slinger and battles can last hours.
You'd carry as many as you could.
several pouches slung round your body could easily accomodate 15-30kg say 500-1000 bullets per slinger.  There would probably be ammunition carts for transporting the bullets to the battlefield.
That many bullets would give you 1 - 1.5 hours sustained slinging.
Plus a 30gm glande can be slung 250 metres plus. So as the enemy advances the slinger can just back up and keep slinging over his own army.

Personally If I were going into battle - I'd carry as much ammo as I could.
Plus you only have to pick it up when moving position.

But given that they generally did not wear armour - 15-30 kg is not a lot of weight if correctly distributed (for me anyway).

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Dan on Jul 2nd, 2012 at 8:48am
Okay, I converted it so I would no what you guys are talking about, 30 grams is only about 1 oz.
I think I would prefer 2-4 oz ammo and assuming we are in the roman era here, I might just take some lead from the extensivie plumbing supply to get some more ammo.

I was just reading in Black Hawk Down (great book) how one of the Delta guys was very dissapointed with the 223 round and the concept that you want the enemy to go down when you hit them. You don't want to have to wonder 4 hours later when you are proceeding forward that he can still shoot you.

For me, it'd be the same way with glands, I want the guy to go down on the first shot.

Now I think some balistics test are really necessary. If a one ounce glande can kill easily in several locations on the body, than I'd take those, but I'd feel more conficant using something at least twice the weight.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Thearos on Jul 2nd, 2012 at 9:31am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Jul 2nd, 2012 at 7:02am:
(possibly with one of jaegoors multipouched slings - but can't be done with a single pouch sling).
 



Fundibularius' Red Baron, surely ?

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by nemo on Jul 2nd, 2012 at 10:38am
Im not sure on this, but what is the standard weight for a war arrow used? Always seems to be measured in grains, which wiki says is roughly 15.6 grains in a gram. So a 450 grain arrow is roughly 30g?


I am under the impression that a single 30g lead shot is sufficient on its own. Lead was expensive and so the army would have tried to get the most efficient weight to damage ratio they could. There is no point throwing 150g of lead if you could kill a man with 30g.
Also we come to a point, the Romans did not always intend to kill people in battle. It is known that if you injure a man instead of kill him, that puts two out of battle, the man who is hurt, and someone to bring him back and look after him. Also, an injured man is no threat to you, just slows the enemy down. The point of battle isnt to kill the enemy, just stop them resisting you.

I do understand what Dan means by wanting to know the enemy is dead and not going to harm you, but that is modern day where anyone has a gun and is dangerous so long as they can pull the trigger. If you are able to take down a spearman from 100 yards away, it doesnt matter if he is dead or dying, you are still safe.

Nemo

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Rat Man on Jul 2nd, 2012 at 11:36am
We can speculate until perdition freezes over but the fact is that ancient slingers who used lead ammo did very often, apparently more times than not, use small ammo somewhere around 30 grams.  To these people slinging wasn't a sport.  It was life and death.  They had countless thousands of years to perfect their craft so we can assume that they knew what they were doing.  If small lead glandes were good enough for them then I'm convinced.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Thearos on Jul 2nd, 2012 at 1:30pm
I agree with C-A and RM

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 8th, 2012 at 4:14am
I agree that probably they used about that weight most often,by multiple armies,in a longer stretch of time,and multiple places on earth,because it was good enough,and that lead was expensive,and they wanted more shot for the buck.
I've found my ideal lead glande weight..i also have to preserve lead,want to sling it as far as possible,and have it to do serious damage(i'm not using this,it's just the nature of the glans) For me that weight is 57g that's 2 oz.
I've also stated before,not in this topic,than the ancient glans about the same weight as arrows,and travelled probably at least that fast,but most probably faster.I assume that glans retain their velocity better than arrows,so at impact,having bigger surface area,than an arrowhead,but compensated with more velocity which raises power by square,i would dare to say,that they were probably about as effective as an arrow.Having more range,and the ammo cast MUCH more quickly than how much labor and time is needed to make an arrow,you get some big advantage.  Also i suspect that lead with it's melting point of 320 degrees C ,and 900-1000 degrees C that's needed to forge iron arrowheads or cast bronze ones,plus the feathers,shaft,glue,and or thread,glans would have been MUCH cheaper than an arrow.And counting them by the 1000 or 10.000 it would have made a BIG difference on their war budget.
C_A ,i highly doubt an any ancient slinger was given or produced for himself 500-1000 glans for a battle. I could image up to 100.but,that's it.True ,that you could sling those in 10 minutes in a hurry,but 1000 slingers ,each with 100 bullets showering the enemy with a HAIL of 100.000 glans for 15 minutes, in the beginning of the battle would probably do something..That would be 3 tonnes of lead in 15 min. falling on the enemy in form of 30g glans with spearheads,thunderbolts,snakes and scorpions on them :o 3 tonnes of lead for an ancient army must had been quite an expense..Today it would cost 5700 $..not that much

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 8th, 2012 at 4:36am
Back to my experiment..My mould was quite a failure..this is why i didn't adventure to make such big gang molds,because clay as it dries,usually dries not so evenly..so large flat pieces tend to get curved.That's why i've turned mine either side,and added a lot of sand to it,to try to keep it in original shape.Keep in mind that 1-2mm twist in the mold seriously affects the precision of mold,even can cause the lead to leak between the two halves,and it's bad..you can burry it sand,but it will have a lot of flashing,and that's work to do,to cut of..I don't like to handle and cut lead..it stains your fingers and it's bad for ya.
So my mold got slightly curved..like 3-4mm distorsion.I've run some water over it,and put it back in a plastic bag to remoisten it,without having to reform the mold.The moistening process made one of the halfs to crack in 4 pieces  :'( Anyways,i've dried them again,and fired it..I've put together the now 5 piece mold,instead of 2 :) and poured some lead in it.I buried it in sand first,but the weight of the lead still made the pieces move,and lead was leaking,so i had to try 3 times before i could finally cast a glans tree.I never messed so much with a mold..But i've managed to reproduce the original to some degree of accuracy..originally i made the mold to cast about 30g glandes,but with the distorsion,and that the two halfs weren't close fitting,the glans got thicker and so heavier.They are between 40-45g.. that's what 2-3mm of lead in thickness does add..Here's a pic with the gang mold open and the glans tree with a LOT of  thick flashing.I sometimes wondered,how's that the ancients had so much flashing..while mine are much more precise..well the ancient probably used gang mold,which are much harder to get precise than my small single molds..
Olom_fa_001.jpg (66 KB | )

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 8th, 2012 at 4:39am
2 glans have the DEXAI inscription on them,on mirrored :D,seems like i forget to inscribe one of them mirrored. This is the tree out of the mold,still with flashing.Similar like this have been found..
Olom_fa_004.jpg (44 KB | )

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 8th, 2012 at 4:42am
After a LOT of cutting the flashing is cleaned.Mine had thick flashing so it was quite hard to cut.Also my lead wasn't pure it has very small percentage of zinc in it, but this makes it considerably harder,contributing to the difficulty of cutting the flash.
Olom_fa_008.jpg (57 KB | )

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 8th, 2012 at 4:43am
Finally here are the 9 cut,hammered,ready glans,weighting 40-45g
Olom_fa_013.jpg (37 KB | )

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Rat Man on Jul 8th, 2012 at 10:45am
Excellent.  Great work!

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 8th, 2012 at 1:57pm
I just got home from the outskirts and i've tried the multiple glans...3 of them,and they were easily falling during windup.Tried it with 2 ,again easily falling from the pouch.Before this,i've succesfully launched two salvos with longer,more symmetrical 50g ones,three at a time,from the same sling,that's made for long distance lead slinging,and i've posted pics about it a while ago.  
After the failed attempts at slinging 3 and 2 glans at once,i've slung 8 glans one by one far into a forest starting from 150m,and on a hill.I could hit high and deep in the forest,about 180m away(googleearth).2 of them hit a pine tree dead on it's trunk,and it was a solid TUNKK,that was heard very good from such distance.
With a shorter sling,as this one was 110cm,and requires heavier ammo to be efficient,a 80cm one ,would be probably much more suitable,and it would be probably closer to what the ancients might have used in slinger units,formations.I would say 250m-300m on a flat terrain is possible to achieve with the glans the ancient used,weighting around 30g. After this experiment,i would dare to say that the myth of multiple lead glans,slung at once is busted.It was a very representative experiment for me at least,and convinced me that 30-40g glans were very effective and slung one by one.Also loading three of them in the pouch,is time consuming and even if they stay there in the pouch is not so effective,than slinging rapidly one after the other.
Remember:3 tonnes of lead hail is possible from 1000 slingers,in 10 minutes,with 30g glandes.And they would hit hard. These were 40g and hit very seriously at 180-200m..30g would be slightly weaker,but still they would be nasty.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Morphy on Jul 8th, 2012 at 2:29pm
Whenever I sling at steel coffee type cans with little 1 oz stones it's not unusual to have the can almost wrapped around the stones. Now granted that's only from 20 meters or so but mine is a short hunting sling and lead is much denser than stones and also aerodynamic which these stones are not.  I imagine getting hit with a 30 gram pointed lead slug from a guy whose been training long distance slinging from a young age would be devastating.  I can only imagine 5000 of those things falling all around you.  What a crap way to die.  ;D

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 8th, 2012 at 3:35pm
Most likely hits would have probably been on the upper body,and head due to crowded formations,and impact angle. Shoulders,chest,neck,head; In the shoulders,it would render one arm useless in  battle..In the chest,it could puncture your lungs,internal bleeding,slow death.In the neck...probably mortal wound.In the head,most likely mortal,but out of fight for sure. Getting killed by tiny lead bullet slung from a guy at 300m in a ancient battle..crappy way to die indeed
Glad your back Morphy,you've been off for a while..

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Morphy on Jul 8th, 2012 at 4:00pm
Thank you my friend, unfortunately my time is up for today, and likely this week. lol... :'( Peace.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 12th, 2012 at 10:53am
I've made another mold for 3 different historical lead gland reproductions. One of them has DEXAI written on it and a thunderbolt? on the other side.It weights 40g. Another one has a spearhead on it and weights 32grams. The last,without any inscription or symbol,weights 35g.
Soon they will be tested.I also made a 70cm thin,hemp sling with small,thin leather pouch for these light glans.That sling is probably more suited than the 110cm one i was using for lead.
Tortenelmi_olom_001.jpg (41 KB | )

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 12th, 2012 at 10:54am
Excess pinced off.. I'm also curious if the flat gland,the one with the thunderbolt and dexai,which is not a direct reproduction of the bullet found with such inscription,will make any buzzing noise.It has similar aerodynamic properties as a bullroarer and it should spin like it..
Tortenelmi_olom_003_001.jpg (23 KB | )

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Bill Skinner on Jul 12th, 2012 at 11:32am
Just wondering, after the flash is roughly cleaned off, can you hammer the remaining flash flat against the gland?  

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Thearos on Jul 12th, 2012 at 11:41am

jlasud wrote on Jul 12th, 2012 at 10:54am:
Excess pinced off.. I'm also curious if the flat gland,the one with the thunderbolt and dexai,which is not a direct reproduction of the bullet found with such inscription,will make any buzzing noise.It has similar aerodynamic properties as a bullroarer and it should spin like it..


Such flat bullets are attested. I don't think a bullroarer effect to be expected: the bullroarer meets air sideways on, your slab-bullet will propeller its way forward.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 12th, 2012 at 1:06pm

Bill Skinner wrote on Jul 12th, 2012 at 11:32am:
Just wondering, after the flash is roughly cleaned off, can you hammer the remaining flash flat against the gland?  

Yep,that's what i did,and the ancients did it,also.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 12th, 2012 at 1:09pm

Thearos wrote on Jul 12th, 2012 at 11:41am:

jlasud wrote on Jul 12th, 2012 at 10:54am:
Excess pinced off.. I'm also curious if the flat gland,the one with the thunderbolt and dexai,which is not a direct reproduction of the bullet found with such inscription,will make any buzzing noise.It has similar aerodynamic properties as a bullroarer and it should spin like it..


Such flat bullets are attested. I don't think a bullroarer effect to be expected: the bullroarer meets air sideways on, your slab-bullet will propeller its way forward.

Do you say that it was tested?I'm curious about any info about it .
I Agree that a bullroarer meets air sideways,and the bullet from the front. Also if there wasn't spin,this shape like a bipointed flying disk should be of superior aerodynamic properties,than a rugby shaped.Maybe the spin even helps it..my imagination started wondering...soon i'll get a chance to try it so,stay tuned..

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Donnerschlag on Jul 12th, 2012 at 2:42pm
You mentioned a problem with molds warping and such. Perhaps you could make the cavity of the next mold a few millimeters thicker, and grind/file down the flat faces where the two halves meet? However if you have bosses for alignment, it may complicate things though.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Thearos on Jul 12th, 2012 at 3:10pm

jlasud wrote on Jul 12th, 2012 at 1:06pm:

Bill Skinner wrote on Jul 12th, 2012 at 11:32am:
Just wondering, after the flash is roughly cleaned off, can you hammer the remaining flash flat against the gland?  

Yep,that's what i did,and the ancients did it,also.


You must be right about this-- explains some of the really perfect shapes on Greek bullets. Some of the moulds also have file marks at the point of the bullet, to try to make then very pointy indeed.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 12th, 2012 at 3:11pm

Donnerschlag wrote on Jul 12th, 2012 at 2:42pm:
You mentioned a problem with molds warping and such. Perhaps you could make the cavity of the next mold a few millimeters thicker, and grind/file down the flat faces where the two halves meet? However if you have bosses for alignment, it may complicate things though.

For the small molds i used to make,most were sanded to fit perfectly..those didn't had alignment bosses.With a gang mold ,and especially that this one was a reproduction,alignment bosses are a must. Maybe if the wet mold would be hung up or held on two sticks in the air,it would dry more evenly and not bend.Or putting the two halfs together and wrapped in textile,they would dry much slower,and perhaps more uniformly.The ancients sure had the solution...

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Jul 12th, 2012 at 5:13pm
Hey jla it's too cool to see your progresses in lead casting!
About the multiple glans tree, be warned that we've found one in Southern Italy, it was a votive offering for a Greek santuary, but I have to find the pictures... the tree was oblique! It dates back to the IVth century b.C.
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Bill Skinner on Jul 13th, 2012 at 10:49am
You need to find the picture!

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 16th, 2012 at 12:27pm
Mauro! i'm curious about that mold!
I arrived home from testing the glans cast in the 3 glans mold. I also made a 70cm,thin cord,tiny,thin pouch lead chucker for them. And i can tell you that these also go very far.Can't tell for sure,but from my experience in distances checked in google earth,i would say they went 200-250m.The best,maximum 300m,and those were the 50g LEG XIII bullet,my 57g perfectly symmetrical,and the 40g historical reproduction,the one that is the pointiest on the last picture. The 32g one with spearhead,although very light also travelled quite far. It should also be noted that i was about 30m higher than the plain i was slinging on,and i was just experimenting for the first time with such small glans and a 70cm sling. I think with more practice,and a bit longer sling around 80-90cm long 300m is very possible to attain with such light glans weighting 32-40g. So this brings me closer to say for sure that such light glans were used one by one and possibly had 300m range. My body height and structure is close to the ancient people's i think.Archaeologists could probably correct or prove this. I'm 168cm(66") and 60kg(132 lb) relatively fit,the ancients were more fit probably. These small experiments gave me quite an insight of what the ancient slingers were capable of,when slinging such small glans. Also the fact that 1000 slingers can sling 3 tonnes of lead in 15 minutes in the form of 30 gram glans explains why they were making economy with lead ;)

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 16th, 2012 at 12:39pm
Forgot to write,that the one that had DEXAI written on it and had the form similar to a prune seed,weighting 40grams,as i was suspecting that it will buzz it did. It made a very similar sound to the buzzing glans posted by Hondero on youtube. ZZWWWMMM It didn't go as far as most glans did,which i also expected.The shape,the writing increases air resistance. I think they could be slung,having them put lengthwise in the pouch ,and not across as we usually do with elongated ammo,but i highly doubt they would perform better.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Bill Skinner on Jul 16th, 2012 at 10:18pm
You have got to test them against some thing, such as heavy cloth of some type such as a cotton drop cloth such as painters use, some thin wood like a shield and if you can find it, a piece of thick leather.  If the glandes punch through, it will shed a new light on the effectivness of the sling in war.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 17th, 2012 at 5:05am
A few days ago i've slung some 57g glans with my long lead chucker into planks. One hit on a plank,sideways.So most probably the cords were somewhat twisted,and as i was slinging from about 15m the gland didn't had time to self orient.With it's much bigger surface area it still made about 1.5cm deep hole in the pine plank. Another one hit a vertical log,just after the plank,and about the same depth hole,and it also hit sideways.
Two more glans hit close to the vertical log,were rectangular straw bales were put on each other like bricks in the wall. I found one of the holes and took the bale apart ,as i couldn't get my hand in there so deep to get it out. I pushed a stick into the hole and it went in without effort to about 30-35cm were it stopped.After i took the bale apart exactly were the hole was,i found the gland about 3\4 the way it's width,about 30-35cm deep.And those familiar with such bales know that those are very compacted.  
I would like to test some glans against some shields,but those are a quite small target for my crappy accuracy. Also the reenactment groups shields are not made using the exact materials and procedures as the ancients did. Many of them would perform very similar to original ones though.
And i'm not sure if any of the members would want a hole in their shields :D
I'm looking forward to try this for some time now, so i might do it one day.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Jul 17th, 2012 at 7:28am
Scroll down the pages here and you'll find Gravisca's lead glans tree
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1266869336;start=all

Which was not oblique  :-[ But it dates back to the 5th Century b.C.  :D
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Thearos on Jul 17th, 2012 at 6:36pm

jlasud wrote on Jul 16th, 2012 at 12:27pm:
Mauro! i'm curious about that mold!
I arrived home from testing the glans cast in the 3 glans mold. I also made a 70cm,thin cord,tiny,thin pouch lead chucker for them. And i can tell you that these also go very far.Can't tell for sure,but from my experience in distances checked in google earth,i would say they went 200-250m.The best,maximum 300m,and those were the 50g LEG XIII bullet,my 57g perfectly symmetrical,and the 40g historical reproduction,the one that is the pointiest on the last picture. The 32g one with spearhead,although very light also travelled quite far. It should also be noted that i was about 30m higher than the plain i was slinging on,and i was just experimenting for the first time with such small glans and a 70cm sling. I think with more practice,and a bit longer sling around 80-90cm long 300m is very possible to attain with such light glans weighting 32-40g. So this brings me closer to say for sure that such light glans were used one by one and possibly had 300m range. My body height and structure is close to the ancient people's i think.Archaeologists could probably correct or prove this. I'm 168cm(66") and 60kg(132 lb) relatively fit,the ancients were more fit probably. These small experiments gave me quite an insight of what the ancient slingers were capable of,when slinging such small glans. Also the fact that 1000 slingers can sling 3 tonnes of lead in 15 minutes in the form of 30 gram glans explains why they were making economy with lead ;)


This is fantastic

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by Thearos on Jul 17th, 2012 at 6:39pm
Can we see a photograph of the "lead-chucker" ?

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 18th, 2012 at 1:45pm

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Jul 17th, 2012 at 7:28am:
Scroll down the pages here and you'll find Gravisca's lead glans tree
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1266869336;start=all

Which was not oblique  :-[ But it dates back to the 5th Century b.C.  :D
Greetings,
Mauro.

Oh yes,i've seen that one ;)

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Jul 18th, 2012 at 1:49pm

Thearos wrote on Jul 17th, 2012 at 6:39pm:
Can we see a photograph of the "lead-chucker" ?

Here it is with 57g glandes. The pouch is about 4cm wide and the sling is 110cm long.Unfortunately i've lost this sling the very same day i've had that test :'(  The last one i made has the same thickness of cords 3-4mm,about the same pouch and 70cm cords.
Olom_posta_001.jpg (74 KB | )

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by farmerdave on Aug 10th, 2012 at 4:57pm
Great stuff! That picture proves you are a danger to your enemies, even if they are only planks and haybales! Has anyone considered sand only molds? I remember seeing a film in school, maybe 30 years ago, showing some colonial re-enactors making muskets. They had bronze models of the iron parts they were going to cast. They packed wet sand into a box and leveled the top carefully, then pushed the bronze pieces into the sand. Then they coated the surface with talc (I think), to keep the sand from sticking together along this plane and placed another frame on top of the box, also packed with wet sand. Then they tilted the whole thing on end and opened it to remove the bronze pieces and carve a sprue. Back together, in goes the molten iron, then just broke up the sand to retrieve the cast iron. It seems that with lead a similar process could be used, with multiple tree molds in each casting. It might survive for several casts, and the previous cast lead, with sprue attached and flashing cleaned, could be used to make the next mold. A little clay as a binder would help, but this setup should work even wet, so drying time is eliminated, and it should be easy to make one or more of these pretty quickly. The sand should be reuseable, at least a few times. Then, instead of saving and carrying a delicate and heavy (and eventually doomed), mold, your army just carries a set of comparitively durable and lightweight mold forms and uses local sand to make more or less disposeable molds as needed. Is there any evidence to suggest that this might work?

Another thought that could be explored is to mix the clay for the molds with sawdust, which burns away upon firing. This reinforces the clay as it dries, slows the drying time and creates relief space after firing, all of which should make for lighter, more crack and warp resistant molds (theoretically!). For lead, firing may not even be necessary, in which case the sawdust would still help absorb some of the forces of warpage. The ratio of sawdust to clay would matter, I suppose.

Title: Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Post by jlasud on Aug 12th, 2012 at 1:48am

farmerdave wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 4:57pm:
Great stuff! That picture proves you are a danger to your enemies, even if they are only planks and haybales! Has anyone considered sand only molds? I remember seeing a film in school, maybe 30 years ago, showing some colonial re-enactors making muskets. They had bronze models of the iron parts they were going to cast. They packed wet sand into a box and leveled the top carefully, then pushed the bronze pieces into the sand. Then they coated the surface with talc (I think), to keep the sand from sticking together along this plane and placed another frame on top of the box, also packed with wet sand. Then they tilted the whole thing on end and opened it to remove the bronze pieces and carve a sprue. Back together, in goes the molten iron, then just broke up the sand to retrieve the cast iron. It seems that with lead a similar process could be used, with multiple tree molds in each casting. It might survive for several casts, and the previous cast lead, with sprue attached and flashing cleaned, could be used to make the next mold. A little clay as a binder would help, but this setup should work even wet, so drying time is eliminated, and it should be easy to make one or more of these pretty quickly. The sand should be reuseable, at least a few times. Then, instead of saving and carrying a delicate and heavy (and eventually doomed), mold, your army just carries a set of comparitively durable and lightweight mold forms and uses local sand to make more or less disposeable molds as needed. Is there any evidence to suggest that this might work?

Another thought that could be explored is to mix the clay for the molds with sawdust, which burns away upon firing. This reinforces the clay as it dries, slows the drying time and creates relief space after firing, all of which should make for lighter, more crack and warp resistant molds (theoretically!). For lead, firing may not even be necessary, in which case the sawdust would still help absorb some of the forces of warpage. The ratio of sawdust to clay would matter, I suppose.

Yes,sand casting would work,and it's a good idea.If i ever get mass producing,i think this is what i would do.Although a good clay mold would cast in much quicker series,as you pour,wait ~10 seconds,take apart,the tree comes out easily,if the mold is good,put together the two pieces,cast again. The ancients used clay molds,mostly,if not always. Sand casting would leave an evidence on the glans,as you could see the relatively rough surface,caused by the grains of sand.
About the sawdust in clay..i have high doubts that it wouldn't be good..

Slinging.org Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.5.2!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2024. All Rights Reserved.