So on another thread I told the guys I'd tell the story of how my best friend saved another guy from serious injury by taking out a knife wielding belligerent with a sling.

Let's start out with some Chracter build up.  :) I have pretty much known my friend, whom I will refer to as John (althought that is not his real name), since I was born (from church nursery, though sunday school and, now to Youth Group) and we have been great friends for many years now. I started slinging probably around 3-4 years ago and I gave him a sling a few months after I started. Since then every time he comes over we usualy do some slinging. He is also also around 6ft and stocky and usualy wears BDU's but he's generaly pretty meek and humble (he is also a Christian, like me :) ).

So he carries his sling and some safety ammo with him every where he goes, including school. That morning he had made a new safty ammo by wrapping an old battery in duct tape untill it was a little smaller than a golf ball. He goes to school and before one of the classes 2 guys start getting aggressive. Guy one was reprimanding Guy 2 for being disrespectfull to one of the females in the school(Guy one kinda being like an non related older brother). So the argument got heated and they started shoving and 'John' saw what was happening and was about 10 yards away and put his hand on his sling (with the ammo already being in the pouch). And then Guy 2 pulled a Knife.
 The moment John saw the knife he pulled out his sling, stood up and slung the wad of duct tape directly at guy 2 (greek overhand). From the movement and snap of the sling guy number 2 turned just in time to catch the wad right in the temple, and was promptly knocked out. While this was happening the security guard was rushing over with his tazer but was still out of range. So he walks up to the guy on the ground, takes the knife, then picks up the saftey ammo, looks at 'John', looks back at the ammo, and gives the ammo back to John and said "We need to talk later."  
 So the security guard (whom John knows well) pulls him into his office and tells him that He appreaciated the help from the sling because he wouldn't have been able to get ther before something happeded anyway and that if anything happens legally, he'll vouch for John.
Thankfully this whole thing happened in seconds and very few people saw what had really happened and therefore there was no action taken against John.

John now tells the story quite humbly from time to time admitting that if he tried the shot agian he probably couldn't have hit the guy at all and thanks God for the way it turned out. I am immensly proud of him and greatfull to God.

The End.

Now back to discussion. I wouldn't really suggest using a sling as your main self defence tool. Instead learn a Martial Art like Krav Maga or Kenpo, or if you are Old enough, Buy a gun. But under occasional circumstances the sling can and has been used for self defence, under the hand of a mighty God.

That is an incredible story, Dan. Thanks for sharing!

Without some type of divine intervention I guarantee I would have knocked out the wrong guy... Whatever happened to Rambo? Did he get suspended for bringing a knife to school?

Thats a cool story. And a battery wrapped in duct tape ? I bet that hurt a bunch ! Your friend deserves more credit then he gives him self. Keeping a cool head in a "situation" is tough.

basically your friend is very lucky the guy wasn't killed.
Temple shots are the most dangerous you can get.

Had the kid been killed then it's probable that anti-sling legislation would have been passed quite quickly.

So while I'm with anyone helping someone out in need - I have to come down against slinging lethal ammo at a human being.

IF you absolutely have to sling at someone - aim for the body. At the very least it'll distract them from whatever they're doing without risking killing someone.
Headshots are always going to be extremely dodgy at the very best.

Oh yeah:
Quote:

but he's generaly pretty meek and humble (he is also a Christian, like me Smiley ).

Meek and humble are neither words I'd have used to describe you dan - what on earth does being a christian have to do with it ? lol

Didn't you hear CA? The meek are the ones who will inherit the earth. LOL ;)

This is an excellent opportunity for people to list what they use as LTL (Less Than Lethal) ammo.  I always liked the idea.  My son in law and I used to run a second hand store in a nasty section of town and we always had a shotgun loaded with bean-bag rounds.  I sometimes fill T-Balls with sand for LTL use.  A little foam and duct tape around a rock would work as well.  Any ideas Slingers?

I am interested in what semi-safe less than lethal ammo people sling too, other than tennis balls. I use footbags (aka hacky-sacks), old produce, avocado pits, and I have a black walnut tree that grows ammo. I like the weighted ducktape idea and was thinking about wrapping a lead sinker in foam. I would love to find an ideal ammo for practicing in my back yard... something with mass and air-drag to visualize trajectory without going the distance (kinda like practicing golf swing with a wiffle golfball.

Cool story !
+1 with Morphy (I'd have hit the wrong guy too)
+2 with Aardvark (lucky he didn't kill him ! + What's the link with being a Christian ???)


fletch_man wrote on Mar 27^th, 2012 at 12:19pm:

This is an excellent opportunity for people to list what they use as LTL (Less Than Lethal) ammo.?

What about a little bouncing ball for kids ? They're dense & heavy, though kinda soft too... and if you miss on first shot, you'd have a 2nd chance on the rebound !
;D

I like the the idea of a big bouncy ball. Not just as a LTL but just sheer fun. Empty warehouse + sling/bouncy balls sounds like a good time to me.

I think Jaegoor's rusty balls would fit the bill. They would be very painful but not as lethal as a stone. That's the thing with LTL stuff like a bean bag round from a shotgun. Still potentially lethal, just not nearly as much as the real thing. So I think rusty balls might fit that definition.

The same idea came as i read. Probably the best LTL ammo would be the Rusty Ball.

What exactly is this rusty ball everyone keeps
mentioning?

Try looking here: http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1309040514/0
And using the search ;)

yes ! those are perfect. basically you fill a ballon with damp sand and cut the rolled over end off. Then cut the end off anbother baloon and pull that over the first.

Not sure why they are rusty balls - but they are certainly excellent sling ammunition.  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Now these are much better than a duct taped wrapped battery because they deform on impact. So that the energy of the impact is spread over a wider area. They could still easily knock you out, but they lack the hard point non-deformation of something like a wrapped battery.

What you have to bear in mind that should a battery impact on someone's temple small or sharp end on - all the energy of that missile is transmitted through that single impact point which could easily kill.
With a deforming missile like the rusty ball, you have the same energy in the missile but it's spread over a much wider impact point so is much less likely to apply lethal force.

I still wouldn't recommend slinging at people - but if you have to, then jaegoors ammo is definitely preferable to most things and would still have enough impact to make a difference in  a dangerous situation.

Curious Aardvark wrote on Mar 27^th, 2012 at 3:06pm:

Not sure why they are rusty balls

I guess we can only blame online translators on the name ;)

Great story, Dan.  John is very lucky he didn't get into legal trouble.  Anytime you use a weapon to defend yourself, even if you're 100% in the right, you generally have to go through a world of crap.  Take it from someone who defended himself from an attacking prowler with a baseball bat.  
 An excellent non lethan ammo is a horse chestnut.  It's big and heavy enough to travel a good distance and hit with some authority, yet it's got some give in that big, green husk.  Good stuff...

---

right.

rusty stands for rustic ;)

Caldou wrote on Mar 27^th, 2012 at 2:52pm:

And using the search ;)

Ah, clever!

got to pop into town tomorrow  - couple of bags of balloons are on my shopping list :-)
Pretty sure I've still got a bucket of sand in my workshop.

I have stuck together the last three situations balloons with a rubber glue. Thus the balls still hold much longer. Since one finds glue in Reperatur set for bicycles.

In Sóller I have discussed with some Slingern this ammunition. It is a good ammunition for the training. But they are not safty. For a person they would be deadly and would lead to heavy internal injuries.

I wonder which would do more damage, the tape wrapped battery or the horse chestnut.  I wonder how much a water chestnut would hurt.  Has anyone slung a green walnut?  I found out that if you sling a hardboiled egg at a brick wall, it just vaporizes....

CA, I ment he is Christian like me, we usualy just repremand each other if we are getting to pridefull. (BTW feel free to do the same to me as well). Listing the fact he was a Christian was just more Chracter background to get the idea of what kind of guy he is, around here it means a lot, and also how I know him. I dearly apologize if I appear arrogant online as that is not at all my intentions, In real life I'm usualy pretty laconinc and laid back, same with 'John'.

The situation ended up the best way it could with the entire thing being swept under the rug. It's a vocational school so small knives are still really frowned upon but moderately common. The whole encounter was only a few seconds and the sling was just the first thing he thought of, and he wasn't really aiming for the head, just trying to stop the guy by throwing at him and getting his attention and stopping the initial attack. And It's not like he was in a coma for a while, he just blacked out for a sec, long enough for the situation to cool down though.
 Ask anyone who's been in a serious fist fight or fire fight, You don't "think" in a situation like that, you just act or in his case, react. Your morals, tactics, and motives are decided before and after, not during. And John and I are not the kind of guys that wouldn't act in the case of a guy getting stabbed.

I haven't used them but I would think the general concept of the Rusty Ball is where your best LTL ammo is going to be. Some kind of casing with sand inside that deforems impact.

Paper and duct tape is just a quick easy ammo we used a lot as kids and he felt like making another that morning. Having been hit with one and having also hit 'John' with one (Sling Duels 8-) ) just paper and duct tape is like getting hit by a cheap paintball gun. Though if you increased the size up to large egg size it'd probably be more like a high end paintball gun.

fletch_man wrote on Mar 27^th, 2012 at 4:33pm:

I wonder which would do more damage, the tape wrapped battery or the horse chestnut.  I wonder how much a water chestnut would hurt.  Has anyone slung a green walnut?  I found out that if you sling a hardboiled egg at a brick wall, it just vaporizes....

I have slung a Green Walnut and been hit with one too. They'd probably be pretty similar depending on how much duct tape and what size battery you used. I imagine slinging a D battery would probably be quite leathal  ;). Walnuts would really really hurt if slung full force, but they'd probably be just in the LTL catagory unless you crushed the trachea or something. I got hit with one when I was slinging to the left of 'John' and his sling cords got tangled and released way late (sidearm throw), and hit the back of my hand. It really hurt and my hand was numb for a little while and smelled wierd from the walnut but there wasn't anything broken. and I preceded slinging a little while after. This was far after the apex of the throw however the reasults would have been different if it had been straight on from the apex.
It reminded my of getting hit hard in the hand with a stick or plastic light saber in the winter as often happens when mock sword fighting as kids. So If a rock out of a sling is like getting hit full force with a war hammer/mace, getting hit with LTL ammo would be like getting with a smallish stick, like a large switch.

benkolmer wrote on Mar 27^th, 2012 at 2:45pm:

What exactly is this rusty ball everyone keeps mentioning?

I'm with you Ben. I'm still confused by the 'rusty balls'. I mean intellectually I know what rusty balls are but I'm lost in translation here somewhere and admittedly struggling with not sliding into the gutter a bit.

Wow, a sling, a knife and a tazer involved - and we're talking about a school!
I wonder what happens in really dangerous places??  ;D

Seriously, things like these makes me reconsider how lucky I am to live "on the other side of the pond"  ;) but we already talked about this, I don't want to begin another discussion on this matter; I'm just kidding a bit.

What I am curious about is, what was the guard doing? I mean, if John understood "kid 2" intentions, and he's not a guard, what was the guard looking at??
Well done anyway; but next time, aim to the body  ;)
Greetings,
Mauro.

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Mar 27^th, 2012 at 8:01pm:

What I am curious about is, what was the guard doing? I mean, if John understood "kid 2" intentions, and he's not a guard, what was the guard looking at??

Some girl half his age?

Perhaps  >:(

In this case, I'm so proud to be half the age of the women I usually look at  ;D
Greetings,
Mauro.

Jaegoor wrote on Mar 27^th, 2012 at 4:30pm:

In Sóller I have discussed with some Slingern this ammunition. It is a good ammunition for the training. But they are not safty. For a person they would be deadly and would lead to heavy internal injuries.

This is a good point. I really don't see the deforming as eating up too much of the energy that is being transferred into the target. And an insulated battery I would say is probably similar, or not really that much worse. But given that a knife was brandished, legally and morally, use of lethal force is acceptable. Luckily that wasn't the case. As Ratman pointed out using a weapon usually entails consequences and shouldn't be used lightly or shirked entirely.

perpetualstudent wrote on Mar 27^th, 2012 at 9:44pm:

This is a good point. I really don't see the deforming as eating up too much of the energy that is being transferred into the target.

If you take a rusty ball in your hand and squeeze it,you'll be surprised how much force it takes to flatten it.You could put it on a table and suddenly push on it with your whole body weight and still it might not be totally flattened.
Also at an impact, it increases it's surface area by a LOT,almost like the surface of a palm. Of course a rusty ball can be made bigger and smaller. Besides a headshot all of them would be LTL and probably as painful as a beanbag fired from a shotgun,but a powerful headshot with a bigger rustyball could easily knock someone in a coma or even worse,me thinks. If a tiny blood vessel blows in the brain you know what it means..And as we know it, a sling is not a shotgun with a premeasured amount of powder charge.

I thinks that the rusty ball is quite powerful ammo. Like jlasud  said it takes great amount of force to change its shape(especially when it's filled with very fine sand) . Though they could be considered a LTL weaposn(for me they are ltl when they weight no more than a 60-80 grams) it is still dangerous to use them against one's head...Aim for the body...As for the story, Dan your friend did something good, despite of the head shot that he gave the guy...

rusty balls = rustic balls :-)

And I've also got plenty rubber glue  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Curious Aardvark wrote on Mar 27^th, 2012 at 4:18pm:

got to pop into town tomorrow  - couple of bags of balloons are on my shopping list :-) Pretty sure I've still got a bucket of sand in my workshop.

Ahh. sand in the balloon ? I dont think my kiddies will want to play if I lob those in to the air underhanded .

jlasud wrote on Mar 28^th, 2012 at 2:23am:

If you take a rusty ball in your hand and squeeze it,you'll be surprised how much force it takes to flatten it.You could put it on a table and suddenly push on it with your whole body weight and still it might not be totally flattened.

Right, but the question is how much of the force is eaten up? The only way I could think of to test that would be to push as hard as you can on a scale and see how much force you can exert. Then push down on a rusty ball on that same scale and see what the difference is. My guess, which admittedly is something of a SWAG, is that you won't see that much of a reduction.

Don't get me wrong I'd rather be hit with a rusty ball than a stone  ::) but my point overall is that it would still be dangerous and not that much of an improvement over an insulated battery (especially since the mass would actually be greater I'd think). For comparison's sake I would also much rather get hit with a rusty ball than a bean bag round from a shotgun. Honestly we've had real trouble in making LTL ammunition for guns. Especially early on beanbag rounds and rubber bullets punctured and killed.  Humans are both incredibly resilient and incredibly fragile, temporary incapacitation with no lasting effects is a tall order. Any weapon used against a human brings a risk of lasting damage and death and so ought to be weighed carefully.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nQQk8meHXE

:o :o :o

A bad choice for non lethal ammo is a raw egg.  When You see someone throw an egg in a cartoon it just explodes comically on someone's face with no actual damage.  In real life an egg is just as bad as a smooth stone.  It is heavy, dense, and hits hard. Once, when we were teens, I threw an egg by hand at a friend who had made some wise arsed comment about me.  I expected the cartoon reaction but it looked like I'd punched him in the jaw.  His face was very swollen and red where the egg hit.  I felt terrible.  Don't sling eggs at anything unless you intend to damage it.

That and carrying an egg could get messy.  :P

Perpetual student was right on, finding something that is LTL that can still stop a person without killing them is quite difficult. In fact I believe almost every ltl weapon can and has been used leathaly if it has seen much use in the field, tasers are used thousands of times and occasionaly they stop someones heart, riot batons which are supposed to be used to hit the legs of rioters and hippies can easily be used to kill someone if you hit them in the head, and beanbag rounds aren't supposed to be at pointblank for a reason. So from these endevors we can find that an LTL ammo that doesn't have the capacity to kill and stop the attacker is going to be incredibly hard to find.  At least with BFT, when you get into irritants like pepper spray or any kind of capsasum tech (http://www.pepperball.com/products.html   8-) ), you have a much lower chance of lethatlity (probably 0%). So if you had some kind of kind of large harder pepper ball for sling ammo, That's about the best LTL ammo I can think of that doesn't have a chance of death.

As to where the guard was I do not know as I wasn't there. But it's not like prison that guards are constantly patroling the place I think they have one maybe 2 guards for the whole school so he easily could have been on the other side of the school and the situation could have ended not nearly as favorably. Or it could have been as you said, IDK. Either way it's in the past now and it ended the best possible way.

Rat Man wrote on Mar 28^th, 2012 at 8:34am:

A bad choice for non lethal ammo is a raw egg.  When You see someone throw an egg in a cartoon it just explodes comically on someone's face with no actual damage.  In real life an egg is just as bad as a smooth stone.  It is heavy, dense, and hits hard. Once, when we were teens, I threw an egg by hand at a friend who had made some wise arsed comment about me.  I expected the cartoon reaction but it looked like I'd punched him in the jaw.  His face was very swollen and red where the egg hit.  I felt terrible.  Don't sling eggs at anything unless you intend to damage it.

No doubt. When I first started slinging I slung a few eggs at a wooden fence. The noise was no different than a stone hitting it.

I may be missing something here, but why the concern for non-lethal ammo? Did that guy pull a non-lethal knife??I would have hit him with anything I had and had I been there I am pretty sure when I saw the knife I would have draw my gun and ordered him to drop the knife! When somebody pulls a knife in a fight it changes everything. It has gone from just an altercation to a possible life and death struggle. :-/

What bigkahuna said about the situation.  

I think a rusty ball to the temple will be fatal, it has mass.  There is going to be a fine line between light enough to be non lethal and heavy enough to break bones or rupture something.  Maybe a hacky sack in duct tape?

Well if you're going for non lethal self defense then just don't use a sling at all. While Dan's friend was ready in this scenario, in a surprise situation you would probably be better off with using your ammo as a fist weight.

If you had to, then I recall that instead of a rusty ball, Jaegor first proposed a water balloon filled with gel (water and agarose) and covered in duct tape. Question is, will it land with a light splat or will it easy knock someone out could? What if you hit them in the torso. Will it be enough to stop them?

BTW: kudos to your friend Dan.

As  we know it,the LTL to lethal line is very thin and moves from person to person and situation to situation.
For raw eggs..we've tried to slung a few with my buddy and discovered that with a long sling and a fast acceleration they tend to break due to the G forces. With a gentle lob they're fine though.
For a viable LTL ammo what Dan suggested,a pepper ball is something i could see as a good option. Maybe powdered pepper loaded in a single small baloon. I highly doubt that could be fatal in any case if it's packed in a single ballon and not bigger than a chicken egg.

you're all missing the point of deformable ammo.

It's not the total amount of energy in the missile that matters, it's how it's imparted to the target.

Classic example take a bb gun that also fires lead pellets.
Fire both a bb and a lead pellet at a pane of fairly tough glass.

The lead pellet will hit a pane of glass and deform, not breaking the glass. The energy is applied relatively slowly over a spreading area. This not only lowers energy at point of impact, but allows the energy to be transfererred over a period of time and a variable surface area.

The steel bb  - same weight as the pellet and fired with the same velocity - will hit the glass. Because it cannot deform to spread the energy - all the energy is concentrated in a very narrow area and the energy is transmitted very very quickly to the narrow point - so it will almost always break the glass.  

So of course if you push on a rusty ball on  a scale you won't see any difference - because all you are measuring is downward force. You are not measuring area over which the force is imparted or the time it takes to transmit the energy from your hand to the scale.

Of course you could still kill someone if you hit them hard enough in the right place.
But this is considerably less likely than with non-deformable ammunition.

BK I am concerned with non-lethal ammo for 2 very good reasons.

1) killing people with slings will bring the sling to the notice of knee-jerk authorities, which is always a bad thing.
2) hurting or injuring with greatly reduced chance of killing someone is preferable in the vast majority of situations.  

Curious Aardvark wrote on Mar 29^th, 2012 at 7:15am:

you're all missing the point of deformable ammo. It's not the total amount of energy in the missile that matters, it's how it's imparted to the target. Classic example take a bb gun that also fires lead pellets. Fire both a bb and a lead pellet at a pane of fairly tough glass. The lead pellet will hit a pane of glass and deform, not breaking the glass. The energy is applied relatively slowly over a spreading area. This not only lowers energy at point of impact, but allows the energy to be transfererred over a period of time and a variable surface area. The steel bb  - same weight as the pellet and fired with the same velocity - will hit the glass. Because it cannot deform to spread the energy - all the energy is concentrated in a very narrow area and the energy is transmitted very very quickly to the narrow point - so it will almost always break the glass.   So of course if you push on a rusty ball on  a scale you won't see any difference - because all you are measuring is downward force. You are not measuring area over which the force is imparted or the time it takes to transmit the energy from your hand to the scale. Of course you could still kill someone if you hit them hard enough in the right place. But this is considerably less likely than with non-deformable ammunition.

Yes. And no. Measuring how much force it takes to deform is a useful measure because it does decrease the amount of energy transferred to the target. You're absolutely right about how that energy gets transferred, but you are missing the fact that the total amount of energy transferred matters too. To take your argument to the extreme, getting shot with a full metal jacket round should be less preferable than getting shot with soft pointed rounds when in reality the opposite is true. The dynamics are complex. Yes, if we wanted to measure perfectly you'd need pressure pads hooked up to a computer to measure changes in area and time preferably down to the nanosecond. In this type of situation though, I'm more concerned about the total energy being transferred than having a dynamic area of impact. Your example of glass is fine, except we are concerned with more than penetration if we are talking about a head injury.

I'd be willing to bet that an duct tape insulated battery has less mass than a rusty ball. And that is the most important measure in this situation. Using a rusty ball would likely have been worse.

xxkid123 wrote on Mar 28^th, 2012 at 11:22pm:

Well if you're going for non lethal self defense then just don't use a sling at all. While Dan's friend was ready in this scenario, in a surprise situation you would probably be better off with using your ammo as a fist weight. If you had to, then I recall that instead of a rusty ball, Jaegor first proposed a water balloon filled with gel (water and agarose) and covered in duct tape. Question is, will it land with a light splat or will it easy knock someone out could? What if you hit them in the torso. Will it be enough to stop them?

Non-lethal for self defense is assessing the situation long before hand, avoiding danger and using your head and your cell phone to summon help when help is needed. If you're jumped or in some other way bodily attacked then the game is changed, lethal force should be a first option and a sling is one of the last things I would use for defense. My luck some guy would choke me to death with it. If you're far enough away to sling, you're far enough away to run. If you're in a confrontation you almost always have the choice to stand down and walk away. If defending someone else you should try and call first because if the situation gets out of your control and someone is injured or killed you're going to have to answer the question of why you didn't first call police. If you're far enough away to pull out your sling, load ammo, wind up, gauge your target one may argue that calling police should have been one of your first moves. Outside of that, self defense if attacked unexpectedly should result in a lethal response.

The police may arrive in 10 minutes as to load a sling and the ammo to reach it's target may take 5-10 sec. The difference can mean life and death.
But i highly agree that detecting,avoiding trouble is the #1
Also your personality will get you in certain places..for some in those places violence is common..for some it's unknown,so this is how it all starts,what you draw around you. Seeing the physical manifestation of violence is not where it starts.

jlasud wrote on Mar 29^th, 2012 at 2:29pm:

The police may arrive in 10 minutes as to load a sling and the ammo to reach it's target may take 5-10 sec. The difference can mean life and death. But i highly agree that detecting,avoiding trouble is the #1 Also your personality will get you in certain places..for some in those places violence is common..for some it's unknown,so this is how it all starts,what you draw around you. Seeing the physical manifestation of violence is not where it starts.

When seconds count, police are minutes away. Another reason to go heeled (to carry a gun). I carry my sling nearly everywhere. Flew to CA last night with two slings, lead and stones with no problem but if it comes to getting down, I'm not reaching into my sling pocket.

Many years ago during a canoeing rally I got an occasion to use the sling for self defence. One night when we were siting around the fire, some bad guys started to lob stones, quite big stones over our heads. The stones were landing badly close to us hitting the ground, trunks and a few canoes. It wasn't funny at all. We immediately took shelter behind the tries.

After a moment I noticed that they are were using slings as they were able to toss big stones so far and high. To me it was a kind of gentle lobbing. I recalled that I had a sling in my backpack (I hadn't used this before there and no one knew about it). I grabbed my backpack, a few poor shaped stones and a big potato that were around of the fire and went a few dozen meters along the bank in order to hide myself in the dark.

When I found a good place between tries I started slinging in the direction where I heard noises they were making. I was slinging hard and straight but aiming high under the rascals' heads - not directly against them. The bad shaped stones were making scary noises and loud crackles and ricochets among the treetops. There was only three or four shots - I had no more stones. The potato was too huge for my sling so I hurled it by hand with full power directly into the place where I detected them. Just after the throw we heard something like "o... f**k!" :D And it was finish of their bad action. We quickly launched some canoes in order to catch the hooligans but there was nobody on the other bank when we got there.

After the adventure I was asked asked by my fellows what I had done. My only answer was - "secret of Shaolin" :D It was funny to keep them curious. Just a little story.

In this case the sling was effective because of a psychological effect. But I think the sling isn't a good tool of self defense in close attacks. Sometimes in stress even handgun can't help. Some years ago they showed a real movie where a bank robber wasn't able to hit a bank guard which was struggling on the floor just 2 meters away. The robber run out whole magazine and didn't hit the guard. I agree, the best way is to avoid direct confrontations as long as possible. Self defense is an extremity.

Good story Yurek. Fight fire with fire I guess.  :D

You are Shaolin Yurek. Cool experience.

One of the best self defence techniques.... smile  :)

That's a good one shaolin Yurek! :D I think in that case i wouldn't minded to sling directly at them.If i hit them,it's god's will ;D
In such a case an H-1 or H2 projectile would be very useful.If you jusst sling one or two by them,they would crap their pants.

Phenomenal story!!! I wish I could have seen this in person.

Thanks guys. I am glad you liked my little story :) It was an exciting adventure and fortunately no one wasn't injured or killed on the both sides. I believe the bad guys had got a chance to grow more reasonable. And yes, it's a great pity that H1 and H2 hadn't been invented in that time but remember it was stone age ;)

Great story indeed !
What's H1 and H2 ?
Guessing it has nothing to do with Hummers ?  :D

It must have been a strange experience, not only to be randomly attacked like that, but by slings of all things. Most of us have never met (or very rarely meet) any other slingers, and really most of us who do are just people passing by mentioning they know how :P

I think you definately did the right thing, scare the crap out of them but dont hit them. Even if they where out of order and a danger to you and your friends, the damage a well thrown sling stone can do is horrific and it would really have to be a last resort to do that to any person. Well done for keeping a good head and knowing how to react.

Always cool to hear stories like these though ;)

Nemo

That was 'John's' original statagy was to just scare the crap out of the guy (which the sling has a reputation for doing, even to ancient trained soldiers) and give the cop time to get there. The head shot was just a byproduct

I remember when CA was standing in the landing zone when we were distance shooting at a slinging meet a few years back.  He said it was pretty un-nerving to be there.  I can well imagine what it must have been like to have Yurek "screaming" sharp edged missles over those guys and having the missles banging off the trees.  When I am out in the woods doing such stuff, about every third (or so) rock will knock a branch off and you can hear that falling down after the initial impact.  You'd have to be pretty "smashed" to not take off running away as fast as you could with that going on...

I recommend anyone who "carries" (handgun) also arm themselves with a small can of "above 10%" concentration pepper spray.  If you present a lethal response to a non-lethal threat, in most states in the US you can be charged with "assault with a deadly weapon"... and that's even if there was ten of the thugs to just you and your sweetheart.

NL ammo for slings... there are several different densities and durometers of small rubber balls available throughout the world...  might be worth experimenting with a few...

GOW

Just for the record, I don't consider a knife a non-lethal threat. If you pull a knife on me or if I see someone pull a knife and threaten someone else, I will respond accordingly. That includes a call to 911.

Yup... knives are considered "lethal" by most states and even if they're not, a jury would likely agree they are.

Most police officers are allowed to use lethal force if a suspect is brandashing a knife, and it is generally protocol to draw their firearm because to a surprising distance they could close the distance and knife the cop before he could draw his firearm in response.  So x2 to Bigkahuna's point. If I see a knife and no probable way to escape I would use any and everything at my disposal including any lethal options available.

Ahaw wrote on Mar 30^th, 2012 at 2:49pm:

Great story indeed ! What's H1 and H2 ? Guessing it has nothing to do with Hummers ?  :D

No,it's Hondero's sling whistling projectiles(search YT and the forum) the first being the H-1,the second,which is made out of a golf ball,H-2.

Military police training allows you to use your pistol in response to a knife threat but only after other less lethal options have been attempted, if possible.  The big thing is distance.  If you can get some space between you and the attacker then you'd be expected to try mace (pepper spray).  If the attacker is someone you're obviously physically superior to then you'd be expected to try your night stick first.  These things happen rather quickly though so a non lethal response isn't always possible.  If all else failed or was impractical you'd still be expected to shoot to wound, not kill.  We carried old Colt 45s, so if you were to hit someone anywhere chances are you'd stop them dead in their tracks.  We've discussed this before.   A 45 shoots a fat, slow slug that has a lot of stopping power.  It's a great gun for close range work.  We were always taught to use the minimum force necessary.

perpetualstudent wrote on Mar 30^th, 2012 at 10:02pm:

Most police officers are allowed to use lethal force if a suspect is brandashing a knife, and it is generally protocol to draw their firearm because to a surprising distance they could close the distance and knife the cop before he could draw his firearm in response.  So x2 to Bigkahuna's point. If I see a knife and no probable way to escape I would use any and everything at my disposal including any lethal options available.

                                It has been show in various live drills that if a person is within 21ft of you, he can get you with a knife before you can draw your gun and fire. 21feet!!! :-?

I've done some study into that rule, the knife fighter stands a reasonable chance at 21ft if the gun is in the holster. They usualy teach cops this rule but as anyone who is a gun guy knows, cops are generaly not the best shooters and certainitaly not tactical marksman.

I teach self defence (Kenpo Karate) 4-5 hours a week and one thing that you will consistently find is how much faster action is than reaction. Not to mention, it's easy to run at somebody and throw a few slashes out. It actually takes a pretty good amount of training to shoot well and be able to pull the trigger when the time comes. It's not liket the movies where you can just point the gun and it goes exactly where you point it, at least not without an intence amount of training (which I suggest most people get). a slight jerk of the trigger can take your shot off 2ft of your target and mearly turning your gun a little bit sideways will do the same. Trigger control and proper grip seem like simple things but it takes a few hundred to a few thousand rounds to really hone in your accuracy.

I don't think this guard had a gun anyway and he probably woulodn't have pulled the trigger either. Shooting a kid is a big decision.

I wasn't suggesting that he shoot the kid, but the display of a firearm by a person in authority might have prevented him from using the knife. Shooting was only plan B or C at best.

bigkahuna wrote on Apr 1^st, 2012 at 8:06am:

I wasn't suggesting that he shoot the kid, but the display of a firearm by a person in authority might have prevented him from using the knife. Shooting was only plan B or C at best.

Aye, I agree. If he had a gun, he most definitely would be justified in brandishing it.

bigkahuna wrote on Mar 31^st, 2012 at 6:13pm:

perpetualstudent wrote on Mar 30th, 2012 at 10:02pm: Most police officers are allowed to use lethal force if a suspect is brandashing a knife, and it is generally protocol to draw their firearm because to a surprising distance they could close the distance and knife the cop before he could draw his firearm in response.  So x2 to Bigkahuna's point. If I see a knife and no probable way to escape I would use any and everything at my disposal including any lethal options available.                                 It has been show in various live drills that if a person is within 21ft of you, he can get you with a knife before you can draw your gun and fire. 21feet!!! :-?

 That I can believe, especially with the old military holsters we had.  They had a huge flap on top over the weapon.  In theory it was supposed to take four seconds to draw, lock and load, aim, and fire.  I could do it in less than one but that's the theory.  The thing is that every threat and situation is different.  They wanted you to read the situation and not necessarily shoot first every time you saw a knife.  It's possible to disarm someone without any violence at all sometimes just by talking them down.  

most likely under the pressure I would have accidentally knocked out the security guard...

The guard could have blinded them with his super flashlight. Does anyone have any idea if armed security guards are common on school campuses? Yes you have some urban areas, yes you have police colaboration with districts but an on the payroll security guard of a school, how common? The schools I am most familiar with don't have armed guards, at least not visible ones.

They are more like Mall Cops than "armed guards" and I do beliece most schools around here have at least 1 guard. Just kinda keeps things under control and attempts to cut down on any shanangans.

Dan wrote on Mar 31^st, 2012 at 9:35pm:

They usualy teach cops this rule but as anyone who is a gun guy knows, cops are generaly not the best shooters and certainitaly not tactical marksman. .

Dan, I don't agree with this at all.  Many policemen are former military members and cops have to constantly requalify with their weapons.  All of the cops I've ever known have been at least good shots and many have been excellent.

wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 10:56am:

The guard could have blinded them with his super flashlight. Does anyone have any idea if armed security guards are common on school campuses? Yes you have some urban areas, yes you have police colaboration with districts but an on the payroll security guard of a school, how common? The schools I am most familiar with don't have armed guards, at least not visible ones.

In China all schools in cities have SWAT teams. Basically a year or two ago there were a bunch of school shootings by pressured students in Beijing, so they've upped the security. If you've seen the new Karate Kid, with the fatass police guard who drinks tea and reads newspapers, well he's been replaced with a decently trained team. It's funny, because in China the standard guard will do nothing but drink tea and read newspapers (common phrase in Shanghai  ;D) will do next to nothing. I've seen some nasty stuff happen in China close to a security guard or cop, and they won't do anything. Then there are more professional guards that nearly overdo things. E.G. I was in a subway station once, and another time at a grocery store. Both times a bunch of security guards in bullet proof vests, helmets and armed with shotguns/m16's were covering each corner and aisle while someone refilled an ATM machine.

Rat Man wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 4:43pm:

Dan wrote on Mar 31st, 2012 at 9:35pm: They usualy teach cops this rule but as anyone who is a gun guy knows, cops are generaly not the best shooters and certainitaly not tactical marksman. . Dan, I don't agree with this at all.  Many policemen are former military members and cops have to constantly requalify with their weapons.  All of the cops I've ever known have been at least good shots and many have been excellent.

They are certainatly more profecient than the average person, and maybe the way I worded it was a bit harsh, but usualy the ones that I know of just train at very close tactical ranges (3-10 yards) and can get most shots in the upper mass. My dad and I shoot very often and I am just used to seeing him shoot (keeping head size groups with a 45. at 25 yards) that comparing the previous standard training seems miniscule. It's kinda like deadliest warrior where they are all profecient and some out standing but there is a huge variety and you can't really compare them as a whole, as I have. (My bad)

Kid my Dad went to singapore recently for buisness and was also suprised at the amount of swat type officers patroling the streets with asault rifles. (British L851s)

It might just come down to the fact that we know or have known different cops.  Most of the one's I've known were very into shooting.  It was more than just something they had to do for their job.. it was a hobby.. they were into it.  I'd just like to add that if someone has a knife, unless they're extremely well trained and skilled I like my chances of disarming them with a night stick, or better yet a Kel Lite.  A Kel Lite is an excellent weapon.  We all carried them.  I'll bet Bikewer has one or something like it.  That extra reach with either the night stick or the Kel Lite is a big advantage.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kel-Lite

and that's part of it too. Having a no BS assessment of your skills. Because of your training/experience you probably could disarm him with minimal risk. I could not. I don't have those skills so I would more readily use more lethal attacks (assuming I couldn't get away).

Yeah, having a some kind of expandle baton is a great idea. It would have to be an amazing knife fighter not to get hit or a really good/tough knife fighter to get hit a few times while closing distance and finish the job. Now if you hit the weapon hand with a hard blow, he's pretty much done.

Yeah, there is about as much variety in cop shooters as there is in civilians where you can have the girl hitting herself in the face with a desert eagle or hickok45 dang near driving pins at 50yards. Either way, having a gun doesn't make you invinciable and impervious to attack, so necessary caution should be used to face any belligerent no matter what weapon they may or may not have.

Finally!
So we came to the conclusion that is better to avoid any accident rather than to risk your and others safety by getting into fights?
Greetings,
Mauro.

 Trying to talk your way out of it is always a great option. I probably could fight really well if I needed to, however every time a confrontation occurs I stay really calm and collected and the situation diffueses itself fairly rapidly.
I think we always had that conclusion, it was more of a matter for being prepared for those times you might need to fight that was in question. As the saying here in the U.S. goes
"Pray for Peace, Prepare for War."

Julius Caesar also used to say "Vis pacem, para bellum", that is pretty much the same thing.
I wonder if this passion for guns that some of you Americans have could be one of the reason why some people in the world hates you.
I mean, it may be natural to dislike a culture which sounds always ready to use a gun to solve problems, if any diplomatic option fails.
What do you think about it?
Greetings,
Mauro.

Interesting viewpoint, Mauro. I can definitely see what you're coming from. As an American, I often wonder what other parts of thing world think of us. That's not something I had ever really considered before..

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 9:12am:

Julius Caesar also used to say "Vis pacem, para bellum", that is pretty much the same thing. I wonder if this passion for guns that some of you Americans have could be one of the reason why some people in the world hates you. I mean, it may be natural to dislike a culture which sounds always ready to use a gun to solve problems, if any diplomatic option fails. What do you think about it? Greetings, Mauro.

To me this is funny. I live in Washington state on the west coast of the U.S. I hunt with my dad and have a gun for self defense. The funny thing to me is that at least %75 of Americans don't own, are against, or don't care about guns. Very few people actually have guns and I am amazed that other countries have this view of us. Also, all the people I know who own guns use them for duck or deer hunting.

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 9:12am:

Julius Caesar also used to say "Vis pacem, para bellum", that is pretty much the same thing. I wonder if this passion for guns that some of you Americans have could be one of the reason why some people in the world hates you. I mean, it may be natural to dislike a culture which sounds always ready to use a gun to solve problems, if any diplomatic option fails. What do you think about it? Greetings, Mauro.

Maybe i'm stupid but i see the USA as the modern Rome,same principles,different tools,evolved tactics

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 9:12am:

Julius Caesar also used to say "Vis pacem, para bellum", that is pretty much the same thing. I wonder if this passion for guns that some of you Americans have could be one of the reason why some people in the world hates you. I mean, it may be natural to dislike a culture which sounds always ready to use a gun to solve problems, if any diplomatic option fails. What do you think about it? Greetings, Mauro.

I see it a little like lawyers. Nobody likes them until they need them. You joke about them, hate them but when your back is against a wall, you welcome the help. Much of the world may not like us but there's still no one better to have in your corner when the ship hits the sand.

jlasud wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 11:01am:

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Apr 6th, 2012 at 9:12am: Julius Caesar also used to say "Vis pacem, para bellum", that is pretty much the same thing. I wonder if this passion for guns that some of you Americans have could be one of the reason why some people in the world hates you. I mean, it may be natural to dislike a culture which sounds always ready to use a gun to solve problems, if any diplomatic option fails. What do you think about it? Greetings, Mauro. Maybe i'm stupid but i see the USA as the modern Rome,same principles,different tools,evolved tactics

Well said. But to our forefathers credit I think we were at least built on better principles to begin with. If for no other reason than they had all the other cultures mistakes to help guide them as they were setting things up. But Rome is a very fitting analogy.

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 9:12am:

Julius Caesar also used to say "Vis pacem, para bellum", that is pretty much the same thing. I wonder if this passion for guns that some of you Americans have could be one of the reason why some people in the world hates you. I mean, it may be natural to dislike a culture which sounds always ready to use a gun to solve problems, if any diplomatic option fails. What do you think about it? Greetings, Mauro.

I feel very conflicted about that. One the one hand I can see how that attitude could be inferred. On the other hand I think this is mixing up citizens and nations (which granted a term like "culture" necessarily does). For other countries, they are generally dealing with the US as a state, and at that level almost all nations keep military forces, that is they reserve that option of force in case diplomacy fails.

It might be American arrogance on my part, but I think it also has to do with the US still being at least among the top 3 military forces in the world (Russia, China, and the US), while the rest of the world significantly lags behind those three. That I think combines with the fact that there is widespread civilian weapon ownership to give the impression that we are a bellicose nation. When we aren't (or ought not be ::) )

Very interesting replies guys, thank you all.
I throw the stone, and now await to see what's your thougth about it.
Since there're some new users here, let me say I'm not being polemical at all, nor do I hate Americans or the US, for I like everyone independently from his Nationality or background culture.
But some months ago there has been a discussion here on who hates the US and why, and it just came to my mind when I was reflecting about the passion for guns some Americans show.

Another reflection: we all know Dan's a good person, but this's a public forum.
He once wrote he carry a knife mainly for fighting: of course it was a misunderstanding due to the fact that he wrote fast, and he explained his intentions later.
But what if some anti-US read his first writing? It would have given him a reason to say that ALL the Americans are mad, psychopaths warmongers.
Which would have been a very big misunderstanding, but a misunderstanding that others could use to strengthen and legitimize their hate for the US.
What I think about this, is that perhaps it would be better to go back to the times were we didn't talk about firearms at all in this forum, and return talking about the Most Beautiful Sport Humans Ever Invented (aka slinging).
Greetings,
Mauro.

benkolmer wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 10:46am:

Interesting viewpoint, Mauro. I can definitely see what you're coming from. As an American, I often wonder what other parts of thing world think of us. That's not something I had ever really considered before..

I agree that sometimes it's nice to know, but then again, do I really care.  :-/

I know that Americans do have kind of a Cowboy aspect to them kind of like John Mclain in Die Hard, and I would think that a lot of public opions on americans comes from Hollywood.

Also, it is pretty much impossible to carachterize an entire country's people. There are some 'Americans' that I would hate to be associated with, example; Bill Clinton.    

Yes and no with Clinton.  On the negative side he was a lying adulterer.  On the positive side he's a brilliant man who led his country through eight years of relative peace and record breaking prosperity.  In spite of his morals or lack of them he was a very effective president.  It's a shame he wasn't a better husband and man.  
  In Korea in the '70s many of the locals  thought that we were all John Wayne.  There was no telling some of them that I've never rode the range or even been on a horse.  

Dan wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 4:27pm:

benkolmer wrote on Apr 6th, 2012 at 10:46am: As an American, I often wonder what other parts of thing world think of us. That's not something I had ever really considered before.. I agree that sometimes it's nice to know, but then again, do I really care.  :-/

Don't take me wrong, Dan, but I think you should: your Nation has been attacked by terrorists who had been taught to hate the US.
So, I think every good American should ask himself why, or thousands of civilians died in vain in the Towers.
Greetings,
Mauro.

But, will I change my Morals and rights becaues a bunch of Islamist are ticked becuase they aren't the best nation on the planet, NO.

RM, Clinton was just the first thing that came to mind mind, throw in any serial killer, rapist, or flaming liberal and I would hate to be assciated with any of them, dispite the fact that we were born on the same soil.

I am pretty sure even today many oppressed people view americans as kind of a John Wayne that will clean up the streets with a gun.

To quote President Snow: "The only emotion more powerfull than fear is hope"
It doesn't really apply to everything, but in those circumstances it fits perfectly.

I hope you don't really think that Islamists hate the US because they envy you in some way?
Because this argument is much more complicated, and it is not true that the US have always been on the right side (read: who gave weapons to the Talibans when they were at war with the Russians? - the first example that comes to my mind).
This is not a personal attack to you or any other American here, but I think that since you born there, you should be the first to know the worst aspects of your history, and to work actively so that these aspects remain history.
Greetings,
Mauro.

Pretty sure the extremist really don't like us and part of their life goals is to 'slay the infidel'. Their religion also has a lot to do with it. So whatever the reason, it's nothing I am ever going to change about myself.

I totaly agree about knowing the good history as well as the things that were derrigetory as history is incredibly usefull for learning from and as it is said:
"Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it."

Dan wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 7:44pm:

I totaly agree about knowing the good history as well as the things that were derrigetory as history is incredibly usefull for learning from and as it is said: "Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it."

Especially if it's a required course for graduation.

If I recall correctly, John McLaine started out unarmed and took the weapons from the terrorists as he dealt with them. For all the hoopla about Americans and guns, how often do you see groups of Americans running around with AK47s, or hear about embassies being attacked or police headquarters being attacked. We have alot of firearms in the U.S. but for the most part, it is alot more closely regulated than most folks overseas think.

Personally, I know this very well, but it's good that you keep repeating this, I'm sure it gives our occasional readers a better idea of you Americans  ;)
Greetings,
Mauro.

wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 8:11pm:

Dan wrote on Apr 6th, 2012 at 7:44pm: I totaly agree about knowing the good history as well as the things that were derrigetory as history is incredibly usefull for learning from and as it is said: "Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it." Especially if it's a required course for graduation.

;D
Luckily, it's no longer my problem (I repeated Roman History 3 times. I hate the Roman Empire).
Greetings,
Mauro.

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 9:43pm:

Personally, I know this very well, but it's good that you keep repeating this, I'm sure it gives our occasional readers a better idea of you Americans  ;) Greetings, Mauro.

Maybe I'm just an American cowboy, but I carry a weapon wherever I go - a sling.  I like to wear them as bracelets, as they're quite colorful, though some of the peruvian ones get a little bulky and alpaca wool can itch.

Don't tell the Italian police or the gun nuts we have here (joking!), but I do carry that lethal, mass destruction weapon too.
The fact is, that I'm still completely harmless until I manage to begin hitting something...
Mauro.


EDIT:
and on a side: how does your wrist look like with a sling wrapped aroung it? It's not the usual jewel, but I bet it still looks great  ;)

A New slinger is truely the most dangerous.  ;D

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 9:50pm:

Don't tell the Italian police or the gun nuts we have here (joking!), but I do carry that lethal, mass destruction weapon too. The fact is, that I'm still completely harmless until I manage to begin hitting something... Mauro. EDIT: and on a side: how does your wrist look like with a sling wrapped aroung it? It's not the usual jewel, but I bet it still looks great  ;)

It looks, uh, slim, especially with a 34 inch Peruvian alpaca wool sling wrapped like ten times around.

Pheeew, I'm glad to hear that  ;D
Greetings,
Mauro.

I used a rough baleric sisal sling as an armgaurd when I was shooing one of my bows and I forgot my guard. It helped a lot with the wrist slapped, but after I removed the sling my arm looked like I had been wrapped up and dragged behind a horse.  ;D

34in is probably long enough to wear like a bandolier too. I usualy just tuck mine through a side belt loop or throw it in my pocket.

Dan wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 9:59pm:

34in is probably long enough to wear like a bandolier too. I usualy just tuck mine through a side belt loop or throw it in my pocket.

I'm short/small enough to use a 25' as a bandolier with plenty of space left over  ;D

Actually, I usually bet my friends to see who can fit my bracelet (paracord, my slings are a bit big). So far only a handful of people can squeeze it on.  

Gun Nuts??????? :-? First I was chastised for my drawers full of knives. Now this??????? :'(

I've worn an Aussie style sling on my wrist for over 2 years now. It's a 28' sling, chain linked to shorten it, makes an X pattern over the seatbelt material on my wrist. Two lock loops unlocked and a quick tug and it's ready for action. Not self defensive, mostly to combat boredom and for a little exercise on my lunch break. I love the crack of a good heavy stone against the many power poles in the area.

Me too. That's a great sound.

Well, I live in a very rural part of the UK, and I like to go slinging in a field with an old railway line running through it, the line was abandoned in the 1800s I think, and nothing remains other than the embankment. On the embankment there are many perfect rocks for slinging, and it gives me a perfect view of where I'm slinging so I can be sure I won't accidentally hit anything I don't want to. Now, when I go out slinging for two hours, it is very rare that I will see anyone at all, even in the distance. However, last year some people who were walking their dogs were beaten up and had their dogs stolen near to where I sling. I always carry a small pocket knife anyway, just because its incredibly useful, and also for self defence, but if I'm slinging I will have my sling as well. It is useful for taking down one person. I know the David and Goliath story, and I know that slings are lethal to humans, but is it realistically possible to use a sling as a self defence weapon against a person? And if there were 2, would the second one be put off attacking if their friend had just been taken down with a sling? I'm a police officer, and people around here know that, so none of the locals would attack me, but someone who isn't from here might.

It's a great weapon... But you need time and space to use it. I also think its going to take some serious skill to get the job done.  I think a person would have to be within grabbing distance for them to be a threat and the only use for a sling at that point would be a garrote. So it might work or it might not at all.

Only use the sling for self-defense if he other person is obviously using a projectile weapon to attack you.

It's a distance weapon, so it won't work all that well if they are close.  If you have a solid pouch, you can put a stone in it and use it as a poor club, the stone will probably come out if you hit someone or even if you let slack get in the cords.  If you are worried about attacks, I would carry a walking stick, it will also become one of those tools that are just so handy to have when out in the woods.  And if you really want a handy, useful tool, go to Paleoplanet and look up the thread on crookneck or shepards' staffs.  They are fairly easy to make and unbelievieably useful.

A staff is a better self defense option, less lethal than a knife and gives you more space between you and the attacker. Which is a good thing.

One possibly use of the sling for self defense is if you were running away and they were following. Taking a second to throw a stone might encourage them to NOT follow you further helping you get away, which is the ultimate goal. 

I'm not really worried about getting attacked, but these are all good suggestions. Thanks for writing these. I think if I was attacked, I would either get my pocket knife out, or pick up the heaviest stick I can find and use it as a club/staff.

If my enemies challenged me from a distance (10 meters or more) I could draw and have the stone ready quite fast.  Closer range I could use a sling stone as shuriken while I engaged my berserker rage.
I don`t tend to be in places where I`m in great danger, though.  And I don`t appear to be a good victim, either, I think  ;). 

Quote:

I think if I was attacked, I would either get my pocket knife out, or pick up the heaviest stick I can find and use it as a club/staff

Just curious, but what is the 'official' police view on these things in the U.K. nowadays? I was given to understand, some years ago I admit, that carrying anything for the intent or even consideration of use for self defence left one open to immediate arrest. I guess you couldn't really arrest yourself  ;D. Is this a matter of police discretion?

Some of the earlier pages brought up an interesting topic. I haven't really been looking around for less than lethal ammo, so much as "less damaging" to the trees and fences around my backstop than rocks and glandes. Tennis balls work, but their inherent low density really skews any work beyond 10-15m or so. (Not to mention the slightest gust easily affects their trajectory--not a good thing when you consistently get strong winds during your after-work sessions.)
So I've been considering getting a cheap lacrosse ball or two.

What's your take on lacrosse balls as LTL ammo? Those seem like they would not only be less-damaging to solid stuff, but they would also hurt like hell  8-)

The downside is lacrosse balls may be too dense. However, lacrosse players wear fairly slim padding, so it's probably dancing close to that Goldilocks line

if the use of the sling in palistine and ireland didnt bring action then i doubt much else will

that aside i have used a sling in self defence at night sparking shaker mill ball bearing across a concrete basket ball court when some young tuffs were brandishing a small firerm granted the distance was over fifty yards and a chain link fence was in between us. so i had little worrys but the sparks did scatter the would be gansters

I've been using doggy micro-tennis balls filled with BB's.  They deform on impact but have the same mass as the stone I usually use (flint-type stone).

1) go to big pet store (petsmart, petco)
2) buy sixpack of small balls ($6)
3) get some bb gun ammo
4) cut a small slit in ball just barely big enough to force thru BB's using box cutter.
5) fill ball with bb's.  They will not fall out if the slit is small.
6) optoinal:  Get a similar-sized rock to the ball and weigh rock on scale.  the weigh your ball.  Make sure your ball filled with bbs is same weight (60-65g).  For me this happens when the ball is almost totally full.
7) better yet, get 20 or so "competition" rocks you might use in a competition and  then "tune" the mini-tennis balls to be as identical as possible.

I haven't tried this, but it might be worthwhile to burn off or otherwise de-fuzz the tennis balls.  They aren't too fuzzy, but it has to impact their flight.

Oh, and the best thing about deforming ammo- you can shoot at walls (cinderblock) and they don't "bounce", they sort of just drop - keeps them together - no shagging balls.

Any time you use any sort of weapon for self defense or anything else make sure your butt is covered.  Even if you are completely in the right you will get dragged through the legal system.  I was attacked by a prowler in my own front yard.  Because I used a weapon to defend myself, a small, child's bat,  I was arrested, cuffed, and charged with aggravated assault.  Though the charges were eventually dropped I had to hire a lawyer at a cost of $1500.00 and was tortured by the system for six months. As Dan says, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six but MAKE SURE THAT YOU HAVE NO OTHER OPTIONS before you use a weapon.  Otherwise you'll be in a world of poop. 

+1 to what RatMan said. Also try and be the first one to call the police, and make it clear to them that you are not the aggressor.

wanderer wrote on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 4:44pm:

Quote: I think if I was attacked, I would either get my pocket knife out, or pick up the heaviest stick I can find and use it as a club/staff Just curious, but what is the 'official' police view on these things in the U.K. nowadays? I was given to understand, some years ago I admit, that carrying anything for the intent or even consideration of use for self defence left one open to immediate arrest. I guess you couldn't really arrest yourself  ;D. Is this a matter of police discretion?

There are times when it can be illegal, but it is only usually if you carry a large knife or other offensive weapon. I only carry a penknife, Swiss army style with a blade length of 2.4 inches. It is legal to have a penknife or multitude on you, although it may not be in certain areas of Northern Ireland and restricted areas like airports and Buckingham palace etc. They fall into the same category of self defence weapons as defence spray, which women sometimes carry on their way through cities late at night. It is basically a less powerful version of the pepper spray the police use. Obviously some discretion is used, for instance if someone walked past and told you to give them your hat, it likely wouldn't be considered reasonable to then stab the hat thief. It would be better to try and talk him out of it, if you believe yourself to be able to stand up to him then do so. But it also may be better to give him the hat and then immediately ring the police and give all the details you can of where he is, what he looks like, his age etc. If you ring us as soon as he is out of earshot, we can probably find him pretty quickly if we know what area he's been in very recently. Even if you think you can stand up to him, it is probably better just to give him the hat because it's impossible to tell what weapon her might have concealed or if he has some friends with him that you can't see. One point though, if someone tries to kidnap you, put up as much a fight as you can. Make a lot of noise, fight for your life. There have been a lot of cases in America where someone has been kidnapped, and then the kidnapper has kept them alive, locked in their house and tortured them. When this happens, there is no real way the police can know, unless someone sees the kidnapper doing it. One man in America was kidnapped and then tied up in a basement and tortured for 3 months before he died of malnutrition. Obviously only fight for your life if you are sure your getting kidnapped. And remember, in the UK, if it's an emergency, dial 999. If it's not an emergency, or you want to report a less urgent crime that isn't happening anymore, dial 101.

Rat Man wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 11:06am:

Any time you use any sort of weapon for self defense or anything else make sure your butt is covered.  Even if you are completely in the right you will get dragged through the legal system.  I was attacked by a prowler in my own front yard.  Because I used a weapon to defend myself, a small, child's bat,  I was arrested, cuffed, and charged with aggravated assault.  Though the charges were eventually dropped I had to hire a lawyer at a cost of $1500.00 and was tortured by the system for six months. As Dan says, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six but MAKE SURE THAT YOU HAVE NO OTHER OPTIONS before you use a weapon.  Otherwise you'll be in a world of poop.

Its slightly different in the UK though. If there are witnesses to say that it was in self defence, and you can prove it yourself, you should be OK. Especially if its on your front garden. Although I am not a lawyer or a judge, so don't take this as fact.

Nominally it's the Anerican position, too. But that doesn't keep you from going through lengthy, costly, and stressful court proceedings where that proof and witness testimony is verified and/or refuted.

Yes. It can be hard to prove that you only used a weapon for self defence and it was reasonable force. Especially if there are no witnesses or other solid evidence such as video. If possible, its better to use your bare hands or a weapon you found while being attacked in order to defend yourself, because then it's easier to prove that you didn't go out with the intention of injuring someone and you were acting out of self defence.

Quote:

What's your take on lacrosse balls as LTL ammo? Those seem like they would not only be less-damaging to solid stuff, but they would also hurt like hell

They're really solid and dense.  I think they would do as much damage as a rock of comparable weight.

I've never slung one, but I have a bunch to juggle with, and we took them to a softball field to do some batting and fielding practice.

Wow!  They really travel, and they REALLY bounce.  A normal softball slows down on each bounce, but these seemed to speed up.  Everybody ended up scared of them, and we lost a few that bounced out of the field into the woods.