Hallo there people!
I've been to the Archaeological Superintendance this morning, and asked the kind librarian to help me in finding anything related to the sling, used by ancient Romans.
She find a paper in which glandes inscriptions are described; at page 5 there's a picture of a lead glans improved with a couple of bronze "wings".
Here's a small and bad quality picture taken from the pdf I have:

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc428/MauroFiorentini/ghiandaCipro.jpg

The bullet has been found in Cyprus, and I personally believe that it's quite ancient, perhaps IVth Century b.C.?

Sources are:

"S(hort) M(essage) S(ervice) ante litteram - antichi proiettili iscritti e insulti di guerra", A. Naspi and E. Radaelli, inside "FORMA VRBIS" #2, Feb. 2011, Editorial Service System;

"Lead 'slingshot' (glandes)", T. Rhill, inside "Journal of Roman archaeology 22", 2009, pages 146 - 169.
Hope it helps our project Goliath  :)

Greetings,
Mauro.

Those have got to be armour piercing blades!  :o

I've never seen anything like it. It's photographs like this that keep me wanting to do more research into slinging.

How many fins were there? I'm not sure but I would assume that most arrows and darts use 3 fins because it's more stable. If it has only two fins than maybe it was some other purpose? Armor piercing blades would be pretty cool though  ;D

I wonder what kind of sound it will make when you throw it?

:o that's something i never thought i'd see on ancient glans. Thanks Mauro!
i bet they would make a buzzing sound,probably not too much as they seem to be just a tad wider than the gland itself. Quite an effort to make..probably deadlier than the usual and more armor piercing than usual.

I also think it's not so difficult to make.... just wait until the storm we've here in my town passes away, and I'm going to make a couple of these bullets... will show you pictures  :D
Greetings,
Mauro.

they're not fins. Definitely armour piercing - hell even extra deep flesh piercing would be worth the effort.

They look kinda like some of the creations lobohunter comes up with.  

I'd also say it's more likely to be an anti-armor round. The increased complexity of the shape just adds more area for air resistance to muck things up, so I think it would be pretty unstable unless thrown in a spiral.

I've actually been wondering about the potential for armor piercing rounds myself, or at least increased penetration rounds. I've been making clay glans for a while now, and I've thought about setting a chipped stone point into the clay at each end. Has anyone tried something like this?

To quote Rihll:

"Two specimens in the database, both from Cyprus, have lead cores and bronze ‘wings’ from the mid casting line, making them resemble the classic sci-fi-style UFO. These wings would have improved the aerodynamic performance of the glans (acting like an arrow’s feathers, to stabilize the missile in flight) and much improved its ability to penetrate the target, offering cutting edges as well as weight."

To tell the truth, my opinion is that such wings improve the penetration's power, but also the damage: a winged arrowhead causes a wound as large as its wing's length, so I believe such a glans would act the same way, given that it reaches its target with an angle of 90° or so.
Greetings,
Mauro.

And another question: how strong are these wings?
Defering to the fact that the impact of such a bullet would be powerful in any case, would these wings resist to the impact?
I believe that perforated wings would allow lead to act as a rivet, thus improving the bullet's overall resistance to impacts.
But since these bullets were to be thrown just once, as I wrote above, their sturdiness was secondary to the damage they caused at the first impact, so I don't believe that casters lose time in piercing bronze wings, not even if this would not be a hard work, due to the poor thickness of the bronze.
It would be interesting to have X-ray studies and metallographic analysis of both the whole glans and the different metals used there!
Greetings,
Mauro.

I'd think the wings would cause drag, making the glans hit with the other end forward. The wings might be there to increase the amount of damage the glans caused to soft targets.

Here is one picture of the winged glan, taken in a museum in Cyprus (not by me) :
http://www.webarcherie.com/forum/uploads/post-70-125630134507.jpg

Nice find Caldou!!
So it's different - and much easier to make - than what I thought at first: a piece of copper alloy with (probably) a hole in the middle that will allow lead to spread on both sides!
I've got to make it!!!!!
A Thousand Thanks!!
Mauro.

Thanks Caldou! great find

As I wrote: I've got to make it!
And here it is:

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc428/MauroFiorentini/Winged.jpg
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc428/MauroFiorentini/Winged1.jpg
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc428/MauroFiorentini/Winged2.jpg

Ok, the wing is made of copper and not bronze, and it does not look so similar to the original, but the purpose was to find a way to fix the wing to the glans.
And I've found it!
Once you make the wing by properly cutting a copper sheet, practice 2 holes in the middle of it: the lead will pour through them and will strongly fix it  :)
Greetings,
Mauro.

Cool replica! I was also thinking that the lead is a single piece connected via a hole (or holes) in the bronze.

Has anyone ever slung a projectile of this type? How does it perform?

Mauro,you did it in a hurry :D Yep,i'm also curious how does it fly..i bet it would make a buzzing sound,and not fly so far as a smooth one.

Just let the rain go away and I'm going to sling it.
As for the holes, you need 2: with just one the copper (bronze) wing would rotate on the internal pivot, with 2 it will remain stable.
Thank you guys,
Mauro.

Did the rain went away? :)

Yes but I spent time forging - the Balkanic short sword is on the way!
And I made some other lead glans so that I can run the risk of losing some, while having a reserve of others for the incoming event  ;)
Just stay tuned, it's a matter of days  :D
Greetings,
Mauro.

If you let the lead halves join on the side of the wing, one hole should be enough, no ?
Is it normal that the lead is so far away from the copper blade in the side view ?

Yes, perhaps just one hole would work as well, but having 2 is not bad, adds sureness  ;)
It was my first try and the copper wing was too wide, the next ones are far better!
Nope, it is not normal that the lead is so far away; this is something that happens with a certain regularity (let's say once every 3 or 4 bullets) and I really can't understand why...  :-?
Greetings,
Mauro.

Maybe not cold enough when unmolded, they slighty stuck to the mold ?

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Feb 1^st, 2012 at 8:19pm:

To tell the truth, my opinion is that such wings improve the penetration's power, but also the damage: a winged arrowhead causes a wound as large as its wing's length, so I believe such a glans would act the same way, given that it reaches its target with an angle of 90° or so. Greetings, Mauro.

I agree with this.  The wings would not only improve the projectiles penetration but they'd also make a larger wound.  

What was the result of this endeavor?

Can't sling this bullet now, all the fields are covered by grain, I'd miss it (and the farmer would kill me for wasting his grain)  :)
We'll have to wait until late July/early August, when they'll plow my training field  ;)
Greetings,
Mauro.

I never search for lead glans,as they're next to impossible to find,if you sling them at long distances,grain or not,mowed grass or desert.Especially in a plowed field,they'd go into the earth,quite deep.Maybe with a metal detector and a few hours of detecting you could find it..or you can just sling it,make others ;)

here's one i made with a little effort.It's with a steel wing,cause bronze that shape is something i don't have currently.BUT it's MEAN! if i'd push it hard with two fingers,it would pierce my finger,and it's not even sharpened.It would slip into a body like knife into butter.It has 3x 6mm holes drilled into the cutter sheet.

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here's one i made with a little effort.It's with a steel wing,cause bronze that shape is something i don't have currently.BUT it's MEAN! if i'd push it hard with two fingers,it would pierce my finger,and it's not even sharpened.It would slip into a body like knife into butter.It has 3x 6mm holes drilled into the cutter sheet. Legio XIII brings bad luck,around it lead hail falls uppon the enemy.

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Nice try jlasud! I'm glad you made another, too!
It would be amazing to have the original gland's dimension and weight!
Greetings,
Mauro.

I've used a mold that was already made,put the steel between ,tied the whole mold,and dug it in sand because the plate distanced the two halves and lead would have poured out.This weights about 50g. Not a historical reproduction,just a funny one of mine,also deadly.

How thick is the metal sheet??
Greetings,
Mauro.

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Jul 1^st, 2012 at 3:14am:

How thick is the metal sheet?? Greetings, Mauro.

Exactly 1mm.

The very point (Hee hee, I make punny) of most armor is to render bladed pointy things ineffective. I highly doubt the blades would've helped with piercing through armor and such. :P

The majority of combatants on any battlefield wore little in the way of rigid, metal armor because of how expensive it is. Those blades on the glandes would do VERY nasty things to those unlucky folks :o Even in the late Renaissance when plate/mail armor was more-accessible than ever, the majority on the battlefield wore little to no armor aside from a simple helmet or so.

However, crushing blows ARE rather effective (varies a bit depending on the armor's rigidity, of course) at sending shock through armor without actually penetrating it. So even if it hit someone wearing metal lamellar/plate/lorica segmentata, it would still rain on the wearer's parade, if you know what I mean. ;)


TL; DR Version:
These "winged" glandes would be devastating on light/unarmored targets, but they just wouldn't be any more effective against "heavy" armor than a standard biconical gland :P


BTW, hi guys! long time, no see :D

Agreed,a fist sized stone would perform much better against plate armor :D After the battle the looting soldiers would have a hard time getting off a helmet struck with a BIG stone,on a dead soldiers head :o

Hey welcome back Donnerschlag! Where have you been??
Do you like our replicas??
Greetings,
Mauro.

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Jul 12^th, 2012 at 3:13pm:

Hey welcome back Donnerschlag! Where have you been?? Do you like our replicas?? Greetings, Mauro.

Long time, no type!
Ah, I've just been distracted by my most recent obsession over Historical European Martial Arts (HEMA), lol.
Replicas? Me likey good replicas. Gimme. :D

Just slung one to the West, should land between Toronto and Miami soon  ;D
Greetings,
Mauro.

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Jul 16^th, 2012 at 3:12pm:

Just slung one to the West, should land between Toronto and Miami soon  ;D Greetings, Mauro.

I think I just heard a boom. :-?
Well that was weir--OMGIJUSTFELTTHEEARTHSHAKE.

I made a close-as-i-can-get-from-a-photo replica of one of the bronze "winged" lead glans from Cyprus. it's about 55g and 53mm long.Def. more dangerous than the usual glans.

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It has two holes in the 1.5mm bronze sheet, and the middle part is narrower than the points, so the lead flow around it.
Side view:

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Those are looking great !
Did you try one yet ?

I don't think I would be able to without a big creepy grin on my face ;D

Got hold of only a small piece of bronze sheet,enough for one replica. I plan to keep this one and,make one or two with iron "wings" and sling those at distance,to see how they fly,compared to regular ones. Also to hear if they make a buzzing sound as i suspect,they would.

You will need to make a dozen or so of those and test them against cloth, leather and some sort of light steel.  And you would have to use plain lead to compare them, to see if they can punch holes as well as the winged gland. 

The steel bands that are used to hold heavy stuff to wooden pallets would make decent armor plates for a lamellar or scale type armor.  A sample target would only need about 8 strips.

Someone just showed some interest and looks like he's willing to buy half a pig carcass and some copper sheet,so i'd make some bullets, and test it. with a backstop and put some linen clothes on piggy. Sounds like fun! hopefully he's willing to do this sponsoring all the way. im sure imma do my part.

Well, you know what we want.

Pictures of the pig's fashion parade !

seems like a waste of a good pig (says he with his charcuterie hat on).

why not use ballistic gellatin ?
Or just ordinary gelatin but made thick.

The wings would definitely cause a lot more damage to flesh as they would rip up more tissue with the drilling action.

My predictions are that winged glandes won't penetrate as much as unwinged, but would produce much larger, nastier  wounds. Much like dumdum bullets.   

Eat pig remains after test.  :eat:

If at all possible make a youtube video of the pig tests and results :D

We'll definitely got to get a good camera,slow mos,pics. Also testing of regular glans is on the list.
The fate of the pig corpse is up to the guy. Imma just do the shootin'  :D

When might this happen?

i would be interested to see what copper does sugical steel cuts straight through awe well as they say nothing new under the sun

The sponsor guy didn't send me the bronze sheet,nor is he willing to respond.. I could feel this happenin.   :-/

Lobo, i'm not sure i got you right,copper blade to cut trough steel?

I think he said surgical steel cut copper.
I can "whittle" alumnium... with my hunting knife.

I believe it has to be read this way :

lobohunter wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 8:23pm:

i would be interested to see what copper does. Surgical steel cuts straight through awe. Well as they say nothing new under the sun

Even if I'm not sure of the meaning of the second sentence...

Jlasud, let me check some price and I will send you a PM.

Surely surgical steel,does cut copper. under the right circumstances.

High carbon knife steel, properly heat treated, can whittle small shavings off of the softer metals- alumnium, magnesium, lithium, lead, PURE copper, and silver... havent tried gold.