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General >> Other Primitive Weapons >> composite point https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1319899863 Message started by perpetualstudent on Oct 29th, 2011 at 10:51am |
Title: composite point Post by perpetualstudent on Oct 29th, 2011 at 10:51am
I was reading an anthropology article about points and it described one point where instead of a single piece of knappable material shaped into a triangle, they instead attached microblades to the sides of an antler point. So the antler did the puncturing and the blades just widened the wound channel. He notes that it's not known if they were used with bow and arrow.
I found this interesting because I had not heard of composite points before, I guess my question is would that be more effective than a solid point? Or equally so? Or do we pull out old faithful and say "it depends"? Bergman, C. (1993). The Development of the Bow in Western Europe: A Technological and Functional Perspective. Archeological Papers of the American Anthropological Association, 4 |
Title: Re: composite point Post by Bikewer on Oct 29th, 2011 at 10:57am
From all my reading on primitive archery (the whole 5-book Primitive Bowyer's Bible series, for one) it's obvious that our ancient ancestors used all manner of points and likely tried nearly anything they could think of.
The South American Indians, moth Maya and Aztek, used this construction for various of their striking weapons, and we know that there was some trade between these cultures and Native Americans. Likely some inventive tribesman saw similar weapons and thought he'd give it a try? |
Title: Re: composite point Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Oct 29th, 2011 at 1:10pm
It was a common kind of arrowhead during Italian Mesolithic, it was used so much that it gave name to the period: Gravettiano and, more recent, Epigravettiano.
Multiple micro blades attached to the sides and the top of an arrow. Greetings, Mauro. |
Title: Re: composite point Post by xxkid123 on Oct 29th, 2011 at 4:44pm
i saw something like it from ray mears before. he had an arrow with a flint tip, and another flint piece behind the tip on the shaft so that it looked looked like a fin coming off it and would widen the blade. the thing went into a leg of lamb, possibly frozen and stuck 6 inches down maybe. don't remember the exact video.
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Title: Re: composite point Post by Bill Skinner on Oct 29th, 2011 at 8:14pm
Instead of "it depends", how about, "it can be?" They were pretty effective on thin skinned game, a lot less so on the thicker skinned stuff. The best theory that I have heard was those points were made during extreme cold weather, knapping is very difficult, the rocks tend to shatter. They would take the chips and using a glue made of water and wood dust and freeze the points together, then go use them on thin skinned game like caribou or fallow deer. The point will stay together long enough to kill the animal or if it is a wounding shot, the point will come apart and each piece of rock will cut as the animal moves. Not quick or sporting but hunting wasn't a sport in any primitive culture.
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Title: Re: composite point Post by LukeWebb on Oct 30th, 2011 at 7:54pm
I think that was mainly used as a way to use your smaller flakes that you wouldn't make into arrowheads. You could take a bone, ivory or wood barbed harpoon point and give it a cutting edge like that of a stone point by inserting some of your waste flakes, ( or specially struck blades from a blade core,) I know they inuit often used ground slate blades on their bone, antler or wood harpoon points so that they would cause more blood loss.
I would think that they wouldn't last as long as a knapped or ground stone point as a flake like that has a fragile edge seeing as it is so thin and narrow and would likely get broken up going through bone. For another example of this type of thing google Macuahuitl, it is an Aztec sword made with blade inserts. |
Title: Re: composite point Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Oct 30th, 2011 at 8:26pm
I had written a reply, but somehow Internet deleted it >:(
By the way, here in Central and Northern Italy, those micro blades were knapped that way for a purpose, to serve as arrow points and blades. The proof is the fact that those micro blades were purposely knapped on their tips, so that their shape is very geometrical: (those are from Northern Italy) (those are from my Region, Central Italy). The shape of these micro blades gave the name to a Mesolithic period, the Geometrico, divided into Gravettiano (most ancient) and Epigravettiano (more recent). During Italian Mesolithic (from about 12-10'000 b.C. to ca 6'000), other common flint blades had these shapes: You can now see how Mesolithic hunters knapped some micro blades with the purpose of using them as parts of an arrow; the geometrical shape was necessary because it allowed the longer edge to be inserted into the wood, and fixed with glue and cordage (a blade with equal edges couldn't be fixed with cordage). Greetings, Mauro. |
Title: Re: composite point Post by Paleoarts on Nov 1st, 2011 at 11:08am
microblade technology, as it's called, goes waaaay back! much farther than the mesolithic, to the Paleolithic and possibly beyond. almost all the spear points found in western and central asia are composites of antler and microliths and were probably employed by the first settlers of the Americas. there is even evidence that Neanderthal used this technology. when you think about it, it just makes sense. an antler point is both easier to make and more robust than an all stone point, and with the addition of microblades it becomes a more efficient one as well. it is also more economical. with the right technique, you can strike off hundreds of microliths from just one modest stone core whereas you might only get two or three full stone points. this becomes especially important in areas where knappable stone is rare, like the Artic regions. the Meso American cultures, like the Aztec and Maya, employed it for both points and striking weapons because of the extreme sharpness of the untouched edges of microblades, and because they are easily replaced when broken. the Natufian cultures (predecessors of the earliest farmers) made microlith sickles to harvest wild grain and tipped their hunting points with them as well.
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Title: Re: composite point Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Nov 1st, 2011 at 11:27am
Well said, and as soon as my camera will get to work again, I'll show you the differences between some normal lenght blades cores, and a micro blade core, as well as comparing normal blades to micro ones.
Unfortunately, I don't have geometrical ones :( Greetings, Mauro. |
Title: Re: composite point Post by perpetualstudent on Nov 3rd, 2011 at 10:22am
paleoarts, thanks for the pics I think I see a bit better how it could be used for a piercing weapon. I see that you've "sloped" the first micro blade so it easily widens the cut started by the antler puncturing the skin. That was one of my main questions as it seemed to me that the microblades should snap off rather than widen the cut. I knew that they were used for a striking weapon by the aztecs, but I couldn't see how it would work for piercing. Thanks!
Have you used any of your composite points on targets to get an idea of how well they function? |
Title: Re: composite point Post by Rat Man on Nov 7th, 2011 at 2:41pm
I had an answer but Paleoarts stole my thunder and then some. Great post, Paleoarts!
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Title: Re: composite point Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Nov 7th, 2011 at 3:15pm
My camera is still refusing to shoot pictures! >:(
By the way, while writing my thesis I found a very interesting book, written by 2 Italian experimental archaeologists that have experimented some Bronze Age bows found in Northern Italy (a site called Fiavé Carrera). Of course they made and shoot some composite points; it seems that this kind of point was still used in Northern Italy well after the Neolithic and Copper Age, toghether with more modern flint arrowheads. This's the book: AUTHORS: P. Bellintani and F. Cavulli. TITLE: "Catene operative dell'arco preistorico - incontro di archeologia sperimentale" ("Building and using a prehistorical bow - experimental archaeology meeting"). PUBLISHED IN: Trento YEAR: 2006. There's not the Editor because they printed it at the university of Trento. I really hope you may find it; otherwise I may go to the Archaeological Superintendence and scan some pages! Let me know! Mauro. |
Title: Re: composite point Post by Paleoarts on Nov 7th, 2011 at 7:04pm
student, there have been numerous tests done with composite points (myself included) around the world and they all pretty much agree that this is about the most effective killing point around. almost all efficient game kills are due to blood loss as opposed to actually striking a critical organ such as the heart. in animals like deer, for instance, you can actually pierce the heart itself with an arrow and it can still run several miles before expiring. but, if you sever a major surrounding artery then you stand a good chance of dropping the animal in its tracks. microblade points do an excellent job of just that, and unlike many modern broadhead points, the lithic blades often detach inside the wound and continue to cut as the prey moves. oh, and don't just use my pics as an example, either. there are any number of varients to this technology that differ with geography, culture, usage, and of course time. the variety of forms is virtually endless.
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Title: Re: composite point Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Nov 7th, 2011 at 7:30pm
I knew I had this pic!
Here's what they found somewhere in Italy (can't remember where!): The caption says:"Bone harpoon with geometrical microliths". It's a Late Mesolithic (Epigravettian) tool ;) Greetings, Mauro. |
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