I have been working on using the helicopter method for sling throwing, what I end up with is the ammo launching itself from the pouch prematurely, despite my GF telling me premature ejection like that is normal  ;D I am confused as to what is happening. Anyone have any idea what I might be doing wrong?

Perhaps start with a non-rotations style, or the "Byzantine" style ?

Good luck

cuallaidh wrote on Sep 9^th, 2011 at 8:54am:

I have been working on using the helicopter method for sling throwing, what I end up with is the ammo launching itself from the pouch prematurely, despite my GF telling me premature ejection like that is normal  ;D I am confused as to what is happening. Anyone have any idea what I might be doing wrong?

You just need to get a better 'feel' for the rotation.
It comes with practice, but maybe a shorter style would be safer for the moment?
I didn't touch 'helicopter' for quite some time for similar reasons.

Thanks, may have to study up on some of the other methods, really hellicopter was the only one I tried.

What does ouir sling look like? It might be more the reault of the pouch than your style.

Dan wrote on Sep 9^th, 2011 at 10:36am:

What does ouir sling look like? It might be more the reault of the pouch than your style.

I was thinking the same thing. Might try a leather pouch just to see if it's you or the sling. Just make sure the leather isn't too thick otherwise it will let the stone slip out as it doesn't grip around the stone well enough.

three possible reasons.

1) ammo does not sit in pouch securely
2) your grip on the cords is too narrow
3) (most likely) just before you throw you stop or slow the rotations, the sling goes slack for a brief moment and the ammo slips out when you jerk forward for the throw.
If you maintain tension in the sling cords there is no jerk and the ammo really ought to stay seated in the pouch.
I've seen this so often it's the most likely.

Never managed to duplicate it myself - but for some reason it is a common problem.

Dan wrote on Sep 9^th, 2011 at 10:36am:

What does ouir sling look like? It might be more the reault of the pouch than your style.

The blue black and yellow (though it looks white) one shown in this thread:
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1315319659

Curious Aardvark wrote on Sep 9^th, 2011 at 11:04am:

three possible reasons. 1) ammo does not sit in pouch securely 2) your grip on the cords is too narrow 3) (most likely) just before you throw you stop or slow the rotations, the sling goes slack for a brief moment and the ammo slips out when you jerk forward for the throw. If you maintain tension in the sling cords there is no jerk and the ammo really ought to stay seated in the pouch. I've seen this so often it's the most likely. Never managed to duplicate it myself - but for some reason it is a common problem.

Don't think its my grip, but I could try fiddling with it a bit... I think you could be right about #3, not sure, will have to go and test it at some point this weekend see if I am doing that.

Here's something you can try that I believe will really help.  Though there is absolutely nothing wrong with your sling design, many find a closed pouch easier to use and much less apt to drop ammo prematurely.  Try weaving the pouch.  Use West Country Whipping, which is just a series of overhand knots, one after the other on alternate sides of the cord, to secure the loose ends of the weaving cord.  In that you're new I believe that you'll find this type of pouch much easier to use.  Once you're comfortable with that you can go back to the open style pouch if you prefer.  
  Is there any way that you can post a video of you slinging?  That would be immensely helpful in analysing your problem.  

cuallaidh wrote on Sep 9^th, 2011 at 11:17am:

... Don't think its my grip, but I could try fiddling with it a bit... I think you could be right about #3, not sure, will have to go and test it at some point this weekend see if I am doing that.

I would agree with that. If you insist ( ;D) on staying with the helicopter there's initially a tendency to bring the hand back in preparation for the throw too late. You have to 'rewire' yourself from bare handed throwing to a certain extent.

However, there is a certain art even in placing the ammunition in the pouch, as Ratman says.

Rat Man wrote on Sep 9^th, 2011 at 11:32am:

Here's something you can try that I believe will really help.  Though there is absolutely nothing wrong with your sling design, many find a closed pouch easier to use and much less apt to drop ammo prematurely.  Try weaving the pouch.  Use West Country Whipping, which is just a series of overhand knots, one after the other on alternate sides of the cord, to secure the loose ends of the weaving cord.  In that you're new I believe that you'll find this type of pouch much easier to use.  Once you're comfortable with that you can go back to the open style pouch if you prefer.     Is there any way that you can post a video of you slinging?  That would be immensely helpful in analysing your problem.

That was a possibility I was considering, that the pouch was just opening up and the ammo flying out. I may try making the pouch a more woven design as opposed to the open pouch.

As for a video, probably can't do one anytime soon, I don't trust myself not to hit the person filming as the shots are really that wild ;)

I agree with RM. Weave it and that should help.

If your shots are really as wild as your last post seems to indicate it says to me the stones are slipping through the pouch at completely random times during the wind up.

It would be lighter if one a video would have.


A very frequent mistake is a wrong position of the hand.

The thumb should turn with point down

You may be trying to get too much force into the throw, that is what is causing the different speeds in the rotation.  Look at some of Jaegoors' videos, he looks like he is slinging in slow motion, notice the rocks shattering when they hit the target.  He is very smooth, with no wasted motion or energy.  When you start the heliocopter, the tendancy is to jerk the throw forward, that causes the pause CA was talking about.  Slow your rotation down and just try to lob the shot, power and accuracy will come.  Bill

I agree with lack of tension. Many people try to put power into their shot by spreading up the windup. In reality all this does is to screw up your tension and windup. Put your back into it and sway your hips with it. You'll feel the difference, feel more power, and maintain better control for the increase in power.

Try a temporary weave across your pouch strands and see if that cures it. Spin gently using only the wrist holding it as far back as you can, then drive straight forward as the sling crosses in front of you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GXkmT7eJFo

Bill Skinner wrote on Sep 9^th, 2011 at 7:54pm:

You may be trying to get too much force into the throw, that is what is causing the different speeds in the rotation.  Look at some of Jaegoors' videos, he looks like he is slinging in slow motion, notice the rocks shattering when they hit the target.  He is very smooth, with no wasted motion or energy.  When you start the heliocopter, the tendancy is to jerk the throw forward, that causes the pause CA was talking about.  Slow your rotation down and just try to lob the shot, power and accuracy will come.  Bill

This is very good advice.  Also it's important to do as David says and spin using just your wrist, not your arm.

Rat Man wrote on Sep 10^th, 2011 at 12:03pm:

Bill Skinner wrote on Sep 9th, 2011 at 7:54pm: You may be trying to get too much force into the throw, that is what is causing the different speeds in the rotation.  Look at some of Jaegoors' videos, he looks like he is slinging in slow motion, notice the rocks shattering when they hit the target.  He is very smooth, with no wasted motion or energy.  When you start the heliocopter, the tendancy is to jerk the throw forward, that causes the pause CA was talking about.  Slow your rotation down and just try to lob the shot, power and accuracy will come.  Bill This is very good advice.  Also it's important to do as David says and spin using just your wrist, not your arm.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree there.  In my experience, the arm is crucial for helicopter, without it you get no power, but if you rotate too much with the arm, or it's not smooth and consistent, the throw will fall apart.  Also, you have to get the number of rotations correct.  People differ on how many is right, so you have to figure it out for yourself.  I use two.  One rotation always makes my throws sloppy and weak and if I do more than two, I feel like I'm wasting energy.

Multiple rotations don't necessarily build up energy (though Yurek clearly does that), but they allow you to get a feel for the stone's weight and how it handles-- very important for accuracy (is this is "whoomph" stone or a "whiiissh" stone, if you see what I mean).

Thearos wrote on Sep 11^th, 2011 at 7:03am:

Multiple rotations don't necessarily build up energy (though Yurek clearly does that), but they allow you to get a feel for the stone's weight and how it handles-- very important for accuracy (is this is "whoomph" stone or a "whiiissh" stone, if you see what I mean).

Multiple rotations definitely do not build up energy unless there is an increase in the pouch/stone speed. It's not like winding up some big clockwork device; slings are not energy storage devices the way bows and even slingshots are. For any given projectile the only variable is speed. The faster you get it going the more energy it has.

Yes, Yurek (and also Beduin shepherds) spin faster and faster, until a burst of speed leading to release-- very recognizable, yet difficult to imitate.

Thearos wrote on Sep 12^th, 2011 at 5:45am:

Yes, Yurek (and also Beduin shepherds) spin faster and faster, until a burst of speed leading to release-- very recognizable, yet difficult to imitate.

I remember seeing a YT video of some Bedouin boys slinging a couple of years or so ago. Have you seen this or other vids? Perhaps you have seensuch slingers in person during your trips to the Middle East?

We're talking about the same vid-- which is now been taken down. I travelled a bit around Turkey, but never had the chance of seeing a shepherd sling (though I did meet a few shepherds-- pretty hardbitten types !)

A quicker one rotate does not give any more power.

At least not with a Classic Overhand.

However, the rotor determines then shot corner of the stone.

And by rotating the shot becomes softer.

Jaegoor wrote on Sep 12^th, 2011 at 6:42am:

A quicker one rotate does not give any more power. At least not with a Classic Overhand. However, the rotor determines then shot corner of the stone. And by rotating the shot becomes softer.

In all multiple rotation styles the initial rotations give only a small percentage of the ultimate release velocity, the majority comes from the final forward thrust. However some people seem to be under the impression that many initial rotations somehow store extra energy. There's one video on YouTube where the slinger does 17 overhead rotations before discharging his sling - totally pointless.

Yep, I was recently teaching my nephew and brother in law how to sling.  They both wound it up like mad, believing that the more you wound it the harder and better the shot.  They actually did resemble helicopters.  I expected them to leave the ground at any time.  
   Slinging is a lot like bowling.  The power comes from proper form; using your entire body correctly, right down to your toes.  Arm strength has little to do with it.   Just as with bowling, using too much arm can cost you some power and a lot of accuracy.

To him I join.

The rotor moves then stone into movement.
Thereby he is lighter to shoot.

Like a heavy cupboard. If one tries to push this one needs at the beginning of a lot of strength. If he moves, however, one needs only very little strength around in to move further.

Try something like that guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0wt8nzocQ0&feature=related

    Thunder Chief, I find that rotating with my arm instead of my wrist causes me to be more apt to loose the projectile prematurely.  This is true with helicopter also.  This of course doesn't mean that one of us is right and the other wrong, only that we're different, which is how it goes with slinging.  
    As far as the number of rotations, I'm quite comfortable using Byzantine, which is just one rotation, or sometimes I'll rotate eight or nine times, not to build up power, but just to sort of get a feel for things and check things out. I'm feeling the weight of the stone in the pouch, aiming, going through the entire motion of the shot in my head, etc..  only the last rotation has any steam on it.  Apache, with no rotations, is always an option also.  
     It's necessary for me to shift between the different styles and variations of the different styles because I sling on the fly, with the Huskies in tow.  I'm always coming across different obstacles that force me to alter my shot to sling around, over, or under  them.  I believe that this is good for my overall slinging.

I used to believe that in a style like figure-8 you had to use consistent weight ammo because you don't have the extra rotations to help gauge the weight of the ammo and the speed it makes the sling rotate.

I've spent quite a bit of extra time this year studying every aspect of the figure-8 in an attempt to make a really comprehensive how-to accuracy video. I'm becoming more and more convinced that instead of using extra rotations to gauge the weight, or using same weight ammo, one can use certain principals to sling different weight ammos with consistent accuracy. More testing needs to be done, but that's the way it's looking.

It's amazing to me how many different ways there seems to be to accomplish the same thing. Probably one of the reasons I love slinging so much. It's so personal.

Usually a one initial rotation is sufficient. Only the last one before the final stroke is significant. I am sure it can add a lot of power to the throw, however the continuation have to be accordingly quick. If not, the power is lost indeed.


Quote:

It's amazing to me how many different ways there seems to be to accomplish the same thing. Probably one of the reasons I love slinging so much. It's so personal.

This is exactly what I think :)

Tons of helpful points here, will have to try out a few things and see what happens. Thanks all :D

An old favorite here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNimz7JCTiI&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLB6DB43407B178F29

for balearic sidearm. Warning: these guys have been slinging all their lives.

I especially like Pedro with his relaxed, precise style, starting at 1:30. He goes on to win the competition.

I believe the issue was more too small ammo and not consistent spin. I adjusted my style a bit and its more a greek style, used larger ammo and did not put much power into it so I could get better consistency, it seems to be working. I successfully hit a target the size of my head twice out of five shots, I thought that was pretty impressive. Out of twenty shots taken this morning on my walk to work I only misfired once. The shots don't go far yet, but I figure with practice power will come.

Oh the target was about ten yards away, I paced it out to see.

cuallaidh wrote on Sep 16^th, 2011 at 8:29am:

Oh the target was about ten yards away, I paced it out to see.

that's really good for someone who has just figured out how to not misfire. i probably couldn't hit anything smaller than a 5x5 piece of wood when i started, or for the year after that

Most people get power and distance first then accuracy.  That's how it was for me anyway.  You're very fortunate to be accurate early on.  

Agreed

Thanks it could have been a fluke, I'll have to do a bit more slinging to find out :D

I normally use a leather pouch and have never experienced a "misfire"/slipped stone while using it. On the other hand, whenever I tried to use a split braided pouch, it was like pulling teeth trying to get the stone to stay in place and I ended up applying some pine sap to make the works a little stickier. That seemed to solve the problem. Since I posted this idea a few weeks ago, I got received some really helpful tips and am waiting for this cold weather to break so I can go out and try some tests.