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General >> Other Primitive Weapons >> Oak warbow? https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1315544981 Message started by Thunder Chief on Sep 9th, 2011 at 1:09am |
Title: Oak warbow? Post by Thunder Chief on Sep 9th, 2011 at 1:09am
Okay, hyper-experienced slinger though I am ::), I'm still a rather amateur bowyer, and have a question that may or may not elicit facepalms from you more experienced bowyers. If I had two 1.5x.75 (I think that's called a 1x2, but I don't really remember) pieces of wood, namely harware store red oak, could I glue them together, essentially making a 2x2 and carve a D profile warbow from that? Obviously, I'm not suggesting a full weight 100 plus pound bow, but rather a scaled down model. Would the oak be resilient enough to take the pressure of the D profile, or is it more suited to a flatter profile? Would it behoove me at all to put a less dense piece as the back with the denser piece as the belly, or perhaps use poplar as the back?
If that didn't make a whole lot of sense, it's because I injured my finger the other day, and it hurts a little to type so my train of thought was a little disjointed. |
Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by Morphy on Sep 9th, 2011 at 1:36am
Should work with proper gluing techniques. Modern day glues are pretty darn tough. Obviously the glue line needs to be along the neutral plane. And your gluing techniques should be flawless.
As far as will it actually make a decently fast bow? What are the specs? How long a bow are we talking about? How long is the intended draw length? What poundage? Etc... There is not enough info. Will it take a D profile or is it more suited for a flatter profile? Well if it won't take a D profile it definitely can't take a flatter, stiffer handled tiller. A D profile spreads the stress out over the entire bow except for the very tips so it's essentially the least stressful profile. Put the denser piece as the belly, or better yet just use the denser piece with a hickory backing slat. And don't use poplar as the back. www.rudderbowsarchery.com/shopping/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6_7&sort=20a&page=2&zenid=rc8mbddrjulvtmp0bujfve5bj4 You can get linen, silk or fiberglass backing strips here for dirt cheap. Or a tapered or untapered hickory backing slat for not too much considering how long a well made bow will last. Good luck. Peace. |
Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by Thunder Chief on Sep 9th, 2011 at 3:00am
Thanks for the response.
My draw length is 34 to 36 inches. The Mary Rose bows were around 78", so that'd be the length, but I could make it longer without a problem. Poundage? Maybe 50-70 pounds. I meant a D shaped cross section, not profile. I have heard that woods such as elm are more suited a cross section resembling a rounded off rectagle rather than the deep D shape. What do you mean by the neutral plane? Flat on flat? Where does one go about obtaining a hickory slat without resorting to the internet? The stores around here don't seem to sell it. How thick should said slat be? |
Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Sep 9th, 2011 at 8:04am
I'm not a bowmaker, but one once told me that, when he make compound bows, the gluing phase is the most difficult of all, and requires a high temperature kiln to be done successfully.
More than this, I don't know, my loyal bow is simply made out of rattan :) (and I'm making another out of yew, but it's a single piece so I can't help). Greetings and good luck! Mauro. |
Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by Dan on Sep 9th, 2011 at 9:46am
Look how to properly use the glue first. secondly assuming you back it with silk, canvas, burlap, or more traditionaly rawhide, it is concievable.
However I would really suggest using those as arrows or tomato poles and get a different piece of wood. Even sucessful board bows tend to be kinda slow, espicialy if you are a new bowyer. Look for a local park or make a friend with someone with a lot of woods and cut a hardwood sappling from there 3-12in thick. With this you will have a much higher chance of a good working bow. |
Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by Dan on Sep 9th, 2011 at 9:48am
Also if you are new to bowing a war bow might not be the best thing and somthing around the 40-50lbd range would be a better first bow, that way you can shoot it for longer and get more accurate over a shorter time period.
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Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by Morphy on Sep 9th, 2011 at 10:52am Thunder Chief wrote on Sep 9th, 2011 at 3:00am:
If you can find a decent hardwood lumberyard in your area than you can probably find a hickory board. Make sure it's real hickory, not Pecan labeled as Hickory. Either have them cut it there into 3/16th inch thick slats or find a local cabinet maker or carpenter that has the tools to do the job. It's simple for a professional. It will take them all of 5 minutes to do, though they might charge you for it. ;) I would go with 3/16th thick , 2 inches wide and as long as the length of the board. Don't worry about the neutral plane comment just make sure that the boards are positioned one on top of the other like a sandwich and have at it. IMHO you would be much better off simply getting your hickory slat as the back and using your denser red oak board as the belly. The two red oak boards together seems really overkill to me but then again I don't build English style warbows nor any bow that draws 36 inches. Remember the basic rule. Double the intended draw length and add 10% for most straight wood bows. You can make it using a D cross section just understand that Red Oak is not as suited for such a cross section. It does not have the elasticity of yew therefore there will be a lot more string follow in the finished bow. It is not the type of bow I would try to make from Red Oak if I was relatively new to bow making. In fact it is just not the type of bow I would try to make from Red Oak, period. But it's up to you. It will be a learning experience if nothing else. :) Don't let that deter you though. Make what you like. |
Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by Bill Skinner on Sep 9th, 2011 at 8:46pm
You need to go to Primitive Archer and re ask that question. You will get diagrams for the bow. Incedentally, that 2X2 oak board will pull around 300 pounds. For a 50 pound bow, you will have to narrow and thin ONE of your boards. Rule of thumbs for bowyers is "Twice as wide is twice the poundage, twice as thick is EIGHT times the poundage." "Minimum bow length should be twice your draw length plus the width of your hand ."
Morphy, pecan is in the hickory family, it can make a great bow. The problem is the pecan with the pretty grain, that has actually started to rot, so the wood tends to be brittle. Hickories tend to soak up water, if you live in some place with high humidity, hickories are not a very good wood. The final shape of the bow limbs should dictate what type of wood you use. If the limbs will have a round or oval cross section, yew is the best followed by ash. If the cross section is rectangular, osage is the best, then elm or hop hornbeam. How tall are you? The English longbowmen and some of the thumbring shooters draw to the corner of their jaw, their drawlength is 30-32 inches. Mark Stretton, the man who drew the 200 pound longbow, is well over 6 feet, his draw length is 32 inches at the corner of his jaw. Are you doing the Japenese style and drawing past your head? Bill |
Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by Morphy on Sep 9th, 2011 at 11:17pm
I like Pecan for a bow wood, just not for a backing slat. If you go through the trouble to find a proper grained pecan board to cut backing slats from you might as well just make a pecan bow IMO. Although it is in the same family of hickory, not all in that family have the same properties. Kind of like Mulberry is a good bow wood, but most experienced bowyers I know would take Osage over it any day.
Maybe I'm not looking at this the right way but as far as I can tell it's pretty much impossible to do a proper D cross section (English longbow) with a 1x2. Gluing them together then cutting them down to a more manageable width/thickness will give a proper weight bow and still give the D cross section. Definitely not the best design for red oak but sometimes your not looking for a rocket launcher of a bow, just a fun project to make. Either way I think his best bet is to slap on a hickory backing and leave off the other board. It's not going to be an English Longbow style but it will make a good bow. No harm in getting second and third (and many more) opinions though. Primitive Archer is a good place as is the Leatherwall. |
Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by Bill Skinner on Sep 10th, 2011 at 10:05pm
Sorry Morphy, I misunderstood. I have had a lot of people tell me that pecan is not good bow wood. When I ask a few questions, it seems they used spalted pecan, the stuff the cabinet makers love because of the beautiful figure in the wood. Spalting is a form of rot, it can look good in a non bending riser ar as a lamination under glass but making the whole bow out of it usually ends in a bow that breaks fairly quickly.
I have a 50# red oak flatbow, the handle area is 1 inch thick, it drops to 3/4 in the fades and is 1/4 at the tips. It is slightly whip ended but it doesn't have any handshock. The limbs are 1 1/4 wide at the fades evenly tapering to 1/4 at the top, 3/8s at the bottom. The bow is 68 inches. It easily handles my 30 in draw. Gluing the two boards together will give him a very strong bow and he will have to remove a lot of wood. If he can find it, ash or elm would be better woods for what he wants, backed with somthing to make the bow less likely to break. |
Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by Morphy on Sep 10th, 2011 at 10:24pm
Yea and one thing I should mention is it is really hard for me to visualize new dimensions just based on numbers. I don't make English longbows so this is just based on an understanding of how other bows are made. My best guess is that to get the cross section he will have to take quite a bit of that second board off in thickness (as well as take off quite a bit of width on the overall bow) and still leave it quite long, or otherwise you are right, it will be a beast of a bow.
I don't necessarily think it's a great idea, especially for a beginner to try, but when I see questions like this I immediately start trying to puzzle out how to make it work, even if it won't be great by any means. I like ash but I really like elm. I think elm and hickory are fantastic beginner bow woods because of their tensile strength, but hey they are great for the more experienced as well. |
Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by Thunder Chief on Sep 11th, 2011 at 2:29am
Thanks for all of the help, guys. About draw length, it's actually about 33". I was measuring at a funky angle. I went to a lumber yard yesterday, and they had some nice woods, but 1) there really weren't any with good grain, 2) they were waaay out of my price range, and 3) the pieces weren't the right size, either they were really huge or just a little too small. I'll have to continue my hunt.
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Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by HurlinThom on Sep 11th, 2011 at 12:46pm Thunder Chief wrote on Sep 11th, 2011 at 2:29am:
Things come in two sizes, "two" large or "two" small. |
Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by Thunder Chief on Sep 12th, 2011 at 2:48pm
Changing tack slightly, I went over the Home Depot on a whim and found that they now sell maple and birch as well as oak. From what I've read maple is a decent bow wood, but I really don't know much about birch. Are either of those worth making a bow from? How do they compare to red oak? And if anybody could put them in order of density, I'd appreaciate it. Thanks.
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Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by Morphy on Sep 14th, 2011 at 10:35am
Sometimes it's not easy to do a straight comparison. In general Maple is considered better than Red Oak. But every tree is going to produce wood of a different specific gravity. You might come upon a really dense piece of red oak that may be better than your piece of maple. That's just how it works. Most Birches are also considered slightly better than red oak.
A lot of it is just up to the skill of the bowyer. Some woods, like Osage or Ipe are so far better than red oak that even an average piece of those will better than almost any red oak you find. But that's not to say they are automatically going to make an amazing bow. There is a lot of skill involved in a making an amazing bow that only comes with experience. And a masterfully made red oak bow is going to be a thing of beauty in itself. So I wouldn't get too caught up in different woods just yet. Sure, mess around with the different woods if you like. Some are more forgiving of mistakes than others, and on top of that it's just fun using different woods that have different attributes... But don't get the idea that some newer bowyers get that a slightly "better" wood is going to some how make an amazing bow. Your bowmaking skills are what make an amazing bow. The wood is just the canvas you work on. |
Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by Thunder Chief on Sep 14th, 2011 at 4:45pm
Today I finished, mostly, the bow that I've been working on. It's a single piece of red oak backed with drywall tape, which is none too attractive, but is quite effective (although the yellow grid pattern does grow on you). It bends through the handle and draws 45# at 32". It's a little lighter than I would have liked, but it works and that's all I can ask for at this early stage. I'll see about getting a picture up once I put some finish on it.
On a side topic, if you're drawing to the corner of the jaw, what do you use as an anchor point? There's nothing quite as prominent as the corner of the mouth in that area. |
Title: Re: Oak warbow? Post by leadrocks on Sep 14th, 2011 at 6:56pm
i'd get a good piece of bamboo backing for it. these can be found many places but i would personally recommend rudderbows. with a bamboo back a red oak warbow of those dementions could pretty much be made as heavy as you want up to 120 lbs or so. Just make sure it's long enough and wide enough for the weight. as far as cross sections i wouldn't recommend a D cross section with red oak. make it a bit more of a flattened D.
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