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General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> Bronze sling bullet
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Message started by David Morningstar on Mar 21st, 2011 at 2:44pm

Title: Bronze sling bullet
Post by David Morningstar on Mar 21st, 2011 at 2:44pm

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/weapons4.htm


Quote:
The sling bullets were also made of metal as attested by this bronze sling bullet (length 4.8 cm) from Maa-Palaeokastro Cyprus dated about 1200-1100 BC. in Cyprus amygdaloid sling bullets, mostly in lead but also in bronze, appear at several sites of the Late Cypriote Bronze Age, particularly at Enkomi.



otherweapon04.jpg (9 KB | )

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by HurlinThom on Mar 21st, 2011 at 8:24pm
Wow, an early form of armor-piercing ammo. With the expense of bronze I don't imagine too many of that type were made, so they must have been special-purpose. Thrown point-on with a good spin for stability they should have been really effective. (Pure conjecture on my part, of course.)

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by David Morningstar on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 6:35am

Another: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=760221&partid=1&searchText=bronze+bullet&fromADBC=ad&toADBC=ad&numpages=10&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database.aspx&currentPage=1

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by David Morningstar on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 7:17am

A hint of it here: http://www.oac.ie/site/content/manners-customs-ancient-irish

"Use of Sling-balls of Iron, and Bronze"

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Lycurgus on Mar 27th, 2011 at 4:22am

Quote:
The sling bullets were also made of metal as attested by this bronze sling bullet (length 4.8 cm) from Maa-Palaeokastro Cyprus dated about 1200-1100 BC. in Cyprus amygdaloid sling bullets, mostly in lead but also in bronze, appear at several sites of the Late Cypriote Bronze Age, particularly at Enkomi.


[/quote]


Want one. :)
Well want loads really ;D

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Mar 27th, 2011 at 6:42am
The context appears to be the Ellenisthic Middle Age; this's interesting, wish some will be found in Italy, too  :D
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Rockman on Mar 27th, 2011 at 12:59pm

HurlinThom wrote on Mar 21st, 2011 at 8:24pm:
Wow, an early form of armor-piercing ammo. With the expense of bronze I don't imagine too many of that type were made, so they must have been special-purpose. Thrown point-on with a good spin for stability they should have been really effective. (Pure conjecture on my part, of course.)


I guess they used the leftovers pieces of bronze, not the super quality type.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Thearos on Mar 27th, 2011 at 1:20pm
It may be worth noting that some archaeologists think these are weights and not sling bullets. But it is, of course, a guess.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by jlasud on Mar 27th, 2011 at 1:42pm
My favorite of all I've seen on the web,just ideal.Mixing some lead with copper would be a good alloy for sling bullets,I think.It would melt at quite high temperatures around 900 C ,would be a lot harder than lead,and less dense.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Aussie on Mar 27th, 2011 at 5:38pm

Thearos wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 1:20pm:
It may be worth noting that some archaeologists think these are weights and not sling bullets. But it is, of course, a guess.


Are they as well acquainted with slings as you? What is your opinion?

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Thearos on Mar 27th, 2011 at 8:08pm
There's a problem because there's no mention of lead (or just metal) bullets before Xenophon, which takes us to 400 BC. So maybe the sling bullets were invented ca. 1200 in Cyprus, but stayed localized or forgotten.

My own opinion ? I 've wavered. Lately I thought they were small weights (I seem to remember a few were found on a shipwreck, trading ship), but the one DM shows is pretty sharp for that. So I'm not sure.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Aussie on Mar 27th, 2011 at 8:25pm
The absence of documentation doesn't necessarily mean they did not exist(?) An odd shape for weights, but perfect for slinging. Those little beauties would have no problem penetrating flesh I venture.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by David Morningstar on Mar 28th, 2011 at 4:28am

Thearos wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 8:08pm:
There's a problem because there's no mention of lead (or just metal) bullets before Xenophon, which takes us to 400 BC. So maybe the sling bullets were invented ca. 1200 in Cyprus, but stayed localized or forgotten.

My own opinion ? I 've wavered. Lately I thought they were small weights (I seem to remember a few were found on a shipwreck, trading ship), but the one DM shows is pretty sharp for that. So I'm not sure.


When do bronze arrowheads first come into use? The biconical shape was well established in clay sling bullets well into the neolithic. Making them of bronze is an obvious thing to do, the only question is whether you can afford the $$$$.

Perhaps there was a local shortage of lead due to war disrupting trade, so they melted down a bronze statue they had dragged off as booty from somewhere else.


Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by David Morningstar on Mar 28th, 2011 at 4:34am
An argument against them being weights is simple: they would roll around all over the place. Imagine putting one of those on one side of a two pan balance and dangling it... everything would end up on the floor.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Thearos on Mar 28th, 2011 at 4:51am
Yes, that's a good point. I suppose a lot of the known sling bullets are datable to late Classical and Hellenistic context (as everyone knows, they die out during the Roman empire). Of course, the uninscribed ones could well date earlier-- what's needed is some secure archaeological context.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by curious_aardvark on Mar 28th, 2011 at 2:11pm


wow that's seriously pointy !
We're talking major damage here.

If we're going for pure conjecture (my favourite kind of history lol)
I'd say the bronze glandes would have only been used by the sharpshooters.
That's definitely the equivalent of a modern snipers round !

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by jlasud on Mar 28th, 2011 at 2:47pm
I could also imagine it was used against armoured guys,as this would be much more suitable for the job than lead ones.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Bill Skinner on Mar 28th, 2011 at 8:57pm
I don't think a lead and copper alloy would work due to the very different melting points.  The lead would be turning into gas long before the copper melted.  Maybe another metal?  Antimony, maybe?  Bill

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Rockman on Mar 28th, 2011 at 11:19pm
Hondero´s Historia de la Honda, does mentions that the Greek used Bronze for ammo. Maybe it wasn´t an extended practice but it happened at least once.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by jlasud on Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:38am

Bill Skinner wrote on Mar 28th, 2011 at 8:57pm:
I don't think a lead and copper alloy would work due to the very different melting points.  The lead would be turning into gas long before the copper melted.  Maybe another metal?  Antimony, maybe?  Bill


Wiki says lead has a melting point of 327 C while copper 1084 C.Lead has a boiling point of 1749 C,so it should stay a liquid at the casting temperature.I'm planning some bronze casting and I'll probably test this lead-copper alloy too.Is there any metal denser than copper except tungsten,lead,gold and rare metals? Mixing 50-50 lead and copper would get some nice hard,and heavy projectiles,if I'm imagining correctly ;)

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Masiakasaurus on Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:57am
The Greek alloy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdochalkos was made with copper and lead (molybdenum ore is often confused with lead ore and the name molybdenum come from the Greek word for lead).

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by jlasud on Mar 30th, 2011 at 1:37pm

Masiakasaurus wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:57am:
The Greek alloy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdochalkos was made with copper and lead (molybdenum ore is often confused with lead ore and the name molybdenum come from the Greek word for lead).


Thanks,so it's possible to alloy copper and lead.If i'm casting some.i'll surely post some pics.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Mar 30th, 2011 at 4:43pm
I strongly believe that IS a sling bullet.....
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by jlasud on Mar 31st, 2011 at 2:21pm

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Mar 30th, 2011 at 4:43pm:
I strongly believe that IS a sling bullet.....
Greetings,
Mauro.

Agreed,those archaeologist probably did never use a sling,or not familiar with the shape of sling bullets...Is there any info of it's weight?

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by jlasud on Mar 31st, 2011 at 2:50pm
Made some measurements,simple calculations :48mm lenght,maximised the picture measured the width,length ratio,which is 2.8 and the diameter is 17.14mm.Calculated with two cone volumes,which resulted in 3.345 cm2 and taking in count an average tin bronze density says about 30g.Of course this an aproximative calculation,as the only thing sure is that it's 48mm long,but it shows that it's about the same weight as the majority of lead ones,which are really light,at least for my preferences.Surely i'm gonna test three 30g ish lead ones simultaneously as Jaegoor and others consider the lightweight projectiles being used shotgun style.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on May 6th, 2011 at 5:43pm
Jlasud, I just read about your willings to melt bronze;
if you're in need of help, ask away, I've been melting bronze for years using Recent Bronze Age technology  ;)
For example, your mixture of 50% copper with 50% lead is incorrect; I'd suggest a maximum of 30% lead, which is yet one of the highest percentage.
The bullet depicted in the photo, for example, must have less than 20% lead, judging by its patina and its preservation status.
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Masiakasaurus on May 6th, 2011 at 6:24pm
Here are some different compostions for babbit metal alloy (I can't find the proportions of molybdochalcos):
76% Copper, 24% lead
89% tin, 7% antimony, 4% copper
80% lead, 15% antimony, 5% tin
75% lead, 10% tin, 15% other
67% copper, 28% tin, 5% lead
Holloware pewter is 96% copper, 4% lead
Euctic solder is 63% tin, 37% lead

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by jlasud on May 8th, 2011 at 6:18am

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on May 6th, 2011 at 5:43pm:
For example, your mixture of 50% copper with 50% lead is incorrect; I'd suggest a maximum of 30% lead, which is yet one of the highest percentage.
The bullet depicted in the photo, for example, must have less than 20% lead, judging by its patina and its preservation status.
Greetings,
Mauro.


Thanks Mauro! currently i'm working on the bag bellows,but as i get to the business,and have questions,you'll be among the first to ask from. What would happen if i'd mix 50-50 lead and copper? would it mix properly,or what could go wrong?

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by jlasud on May 8th, 2011 at 6:26am

Masiakasaurus wrote on May 6th, 2011 at 6:24pm:
Here are some different compostions for babbit metal alloy (I can't find the proportions of molybdochalcos):
76% Copper, 24% lead
89% tin, 7% antimony, 4% copper
80% lead, 15% antimony, 5% tin
75% lead, 10% tin, 15% other
67% copper, 28% tin, 5% lead
Holloware pewter is 96% copper, 4% lead
Euctic solder is 63% tin, 37% lead

Lead,tin,antimony and copper are nice heavy metals,the only problem i have with casting lead with tin is that tin shrinks a LOT as it cools and the casting won't be complete.Antimony is not available to me so copper,lead and a tiny bit of tin would be suitable .The projectile on the picture looks really grey,so i suppose it has high quantities of lead or tin in it and less copper than usual bronze.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on May 8th, 2011 at 10:34am

jlasud wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 6:18am:
Thanks Mauro!

You're welcome! It's always a pleasure to help!


jlasud wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 6:18am:
What would happen if i'd mix 50-50 lead and copper? would it mix properly,or what could go wrong?

Actually, that is not a dangerous mixture: it will work and everything.
I assume that you're putting 50% lead because you want the copper to melt quickly. If I'm right, know that even a very small amount of lead will reach this objective. As I can remember from findings, and as I've experimented, the minimum amount of lead is about 6%. This will make a very hard bronze tool, such as a chisel, for example.
Higher amount of lead means that the item will be more fragile, but even easier to work - for example, bronze axes generally had about 10-12% lead in them, because they had to be hammered on the edge: with less than 10% lead, hammering would be very dangerous, because it would eventually break the edge. On the other side, muscolar armors, or some types of helmets, had a higher percentage of lead, 15% or more, because they had an elaborate design and it was hard to achieve it, using less lead. In fact, these kind of protections were particularly weak against pierces, and were mainly used for triumphs and decorations.

Back to your mixture, I consider it incorrect just because it would be a waste of lead: such a high amount of it would be useless, you'd better cast a whole-lead bullet, then.
I don't know the difference between a bronze and a lead sling bullet, but I think that a bronze one would be harder, and, for example, would not deformate when it hit a shield - it would surely pierce an iron helmet. It should even weight less than a lead one, and may go farther. But these are suppositions; I suggest you to use the chisel percentage, 6%, at the beginning, and then augment it.

You're involving yourself in a very exciting research project; I envy you!
Can you share some pictures of your bellows??
Thank you, and good work!
Mauro.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by jlasud on May 8th, 2011 at 3:33pm
I thought about the 50-50 mixture because that way would be a little denser than lead,but harder than pure lead..
                        DENSITY    MELTING POINT   MOHS HARDNESS
COPPER            8.94g\cm3      1084 C                      3.0

LEAD                11.34g\cm3      327 C                      1.5

So the 50:50 alloy would be about 10g\cm3 it would melt at  1084+327\2=705(???)C and would probably have the hardness of 2.25 (?) And about the historical axes and other bronze stuff,i knew that tin,arsene was used most often,with 1-2% lead added to sword bronze for easier hammering,sharpening.The casting will be surely captured;the bellows are in a phase that one bellow is a sheep skin without fur and the other one still has fur :D Made 2 ~250ml crucibles and a small ~50ml one,from clay with 1\3-1\4 sand in it,still have to be fired,on the left there's the blowing nozzle of the bellows system already fired and a lost wax small scythian style axe mould with 75% or more sand so it won't crack at shrinking on the wax positive inside it,and a dagger mould which might not survive as it's pure clay and thick...The bellows and wood pipes are the next thing to make.The progress is slow,but it's progressing a bit weekly.
Bronz_onto_cucc.jpg (37 KB | )

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on May 8th, 2011 at 5:54pm
Hallo!
It's late here in Italy, so just a brief reply before I go to bed (a more accurate one tomorrow  ;D ): for the wood pipe, use a lake cane; it's a year since I've been using one for my bellows, and it works perfectly; you can see my forge in the topic I've just started in the other section!
Very nice stuff you've done, it reminds me of a lot of time spent working on similar things..... lovely!
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Bill Skinner on May 13th, 2011 at 6:26pm
Jlasud, how is the bronze ax to be hafted?  

I have never actually looked up the boiling point of lead, most reloading and bullet casting books say that lead starts to sublinate at about 10 degrees above its melting temp, so you really have to watch for lead fumes.  Most bullet alloys are lead, antimony and tin, the antimony for hardness and the tin for castability.  It makes the liquid fill out the small angles and then shrinks so the bullet releases cleanly from the metal mold.  Bill

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on May 13th, 2011 at 7:02pm
That axe is handled by putting the handle inside of the hole  ;)

Yeah, melting lead can be dangerous, so ALWAYS MELT IT OUTDOOR!
And don't stay too close to the liquid metal, not even to carefully watch wether you drip it rightly or not!
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by jlasud on May 15th, 2011 at 1:47am
Yes,Bill the axe is a shaft hole version,it has clay rod in the mold,which will be broken after casting.I melt lead at home,with the hood turned on,the heat rises any fumes directly into the hood ,and i don't stay around it until it melts,then i cast.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Bill Skinner on May 16th, 2011 at 1:38pm
He had to tell me about the clay plug, it looked like it would be a solid chunk of metal with the side pour.  Why did they cast that way and not from the top, is there a particular reason?  Bill

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on May 16th, 2011 at 1:51pm
Hallo Bill!
If I've understood your question correctly, they didn't cast from the top, because carving such an item on a block of stone was hard work.
If you think to moulds that have survived, they are all thought for items that had the same thickness. Such an axe has a regular thickness, but the cylinder increases it.
So it's easier to make a wax model, than to carve the cylinder in the stone, even because the heat would probably break the "inside" of the cylinder  :-/
I hope that I explained myself!
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: Bronze sling bullet
Post by Bill Skinner on May 16th, 2011 at 9:44pm
Thank you, it does answer my question.  Bill

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