While looking through some books, I found images of slingers, painted by modern artists. They may have been put in this forum already, though I have not found them here yet.

The Thracian and Balearic slingers are from the German translation of Penrose, Jane: Rome and Her Enemies, 2005.

The Britanno-Celtic warriors are from the German translation of Wilcox, Peter: Rome´s Enemies, Vol 2: Gallic and British Celts, 1985.

Sorry for the lack of quality. As I could not scan the images, I took photos of them.

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No. 2: Balearics

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No 3: Britons

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A better look at the Britons...

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...and Sassanids, also from Penrose´s book.

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Great pictures.  Thanks.

Can't help but notice that several have their stones in pouches on their throwing side.  A bit awkward, that. ;)

I would once have thought so too, sash.  But after a lot of experimentation, even I am among those who prefer to load the sling from the slinging hand, and carry the ammo on the slinging side.  With practice it simply become natural.
timann

These are all oil paintings by Angus McBride, from the Osprey Men at Arms series. I generally like AM, but two remarks: he was sometimes a bit fantasy-prone; his human beings look, well, sometimes a bit improbable.

I keep my ammo in a bag on my right side and reload with the right hand. After a throw I take the pouch with the left hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GXkmT7eJFo

Then reach into the bag with the right hand and bring the ammo to the open pouch. I grip the pouch around the ammo with my left hand and take the dangling release cord with my right hand and slide along it to the release knot.

I like the Balearic hair net. ;)

The first pic, if I remember correctly, illustrates men in the Makedonian army in the third Makedonian war, between Rome and the Macedonian kingdom, 171-168. The slinger is not based on any ancient representation, but just a guess the man's given a Thracian cap and a "pelta", a light shield. But did ancient slingers fight with shields ? I must say I don't know

You certainly can, if the shield straps to the forearm. I have done it and it didnt slow me down at all. Trajans column shows a slinger with a shield, although I'm not keen on the other details there e.g. ammo in the cloak.

If I was a military slinger I would definitely take a shield with me.

Oh yeah, sling and shield! Love it. Id really like to spar with someone whith bot of us armed that way (tennis balls).
Yeah ive never seen evidence of historical sling and shield fighting either. They surely must have done it though.
Ah, there we go. Just had a look at Trajans column, yup a slinger with a shield allright.

This thread contains some pictures from the Maciejowski Bible. There is a picture of the siege of Rabbah where a slinger is holding a shield.

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1166260547/5#5

-Timothy Potter

and a single grip, bossed shield at that

Sometimes the shields were simply wicker. Not much use against swords, or even arrows. Slingers were always the lowest people in the armies.

Thearos wrote on Nov 7^th, 2009 at 6:19pm:

and a single grip, bossed shield at that

Bossed, yes. But single grip? If you measure the slingers throwing arm and compare it to the shield arm you can see he is wearing it strapped to his forearm. It would make sense to make a shield that can be held either way.

slingbadger wrote on Nov 7^th, 2009 at 6:41pm:

Sometimes the shields were simply wicker. Not much use against swords, or even arrows. Slingers were always the lowest people in the armies.

Wicker shields are very effective at stopping arrows:

"…the Persians had made a barricade of their wicker shields and from the protection of it were shooting arrows from it in such numbers…" Herodotus IX,61

I remember but cant now find a description of an experimental shield of wicker, two layers wound in opposite directions and covered in goatskin. This was very lightweight but stopped powerful arrows. The point penetrates but the shaft is 'gripped' by the wicker and only goes through a few inches.

More shield talk here: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=7175

Quote:

Can't help but notice that several have their stones in pouches on their throwing side.  A bit awkward, that. Wink

Once you try it you'll find it's the other way round that's awkward :-)

I LOVE the mustachios on the britons - bet davids got mustache envy ! lol

No envy here, I have a fine example of the type  8-)

Looks like if you carry a shield, you should get comfortable loading right handed.

walter

This is exactly how I do it, cos I learned it from this page: http://www.zinfinium.net/index.php?id=157

he Slinger on the Trajan column does not show the reality. However, we have developed a technology for Slings and Shields.

Here for you a few traditional pictures

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Midway down the picture is a slinger with a shield. Notice the unusual thumbless grip he uses. The release is a simple loop over the index finger. About a year ago someone posted some pictures of slingers in the Kenyan disturbances using this style of release. There seemed to be some controversy that the photos were merely posed and that style of release wouldn't really be practical. However the fine detail on this picture makes me think that it is accurate and not merely artistic license.

I know that Eoraptor holds the release bead between her index and middle fingers. Does anyone on the forum use this loop or other unusual release styles?

C12th century stuff.

Isn't the slinger throwing with retention loop on index, and somehow releasing with the other fingers ?

Hadn't considered that possibility but still think the index finger loop is the release. The loop is large and loose fitting and the finger partially relaxed. The other fingers seem much more clenched, possibly holding a toggle.

I'm with Aussie. Maybe the artist had a sling in front of him, and invented a way to hold it without first hand experience?

Aussie wrote on Dec 7^th, 2009 at 8:12pm:

Hadn't considered that possibility but still think the index finger loop is the release. The loop is large and loose fitting and the finger partially relaxed. The other fingers seem much more clenched, possibly holding a toggle.

I agree the release is likely made with the index finger, although it seems incredibly awkward to me.

Isn't that a traction trebuchet in the background?

You're right-- trebuchet, with lots of loosely hanging ropes for the team of pullers !

I still think hooked on index, and released from between third and fourth fingers. Try it !

Mideval paintings where never photorealistic - they always are "talking" pictures.
We don´t know what the atist want to say, but there must be a reason to put a slinger in a good and important position like he does.
Normaly they show important persons like a king in the middle of a picture, thats why I think the artist want to say something spezial like:" ..the defenders where less armed and had not as many knights as the agressors, but win.." or something like this.

This kind of release would be just possible if he uses his arm like a Fustibal and in this case he really would release the loop.
But this would decrease the power of the weapon extremly.

Thearos wrote on Dec 8^th, 2009 at 11:20am:

I still think hooked on index, and released from between third and fourth fingers. Try it !

Doubtless it could be done either way and what the artist actually intended to portray may not be possible to ascertain.

What made me notice it in the first place was the previously mentioned photos of Kenyan slingers and also an illustration in a Russian language work on slinging referenced from the homepage.

• Shooting Techniques for the Sling and the Methods for Holding it (in Russian) (english translation)

The text is in Russian which I don't speak, and only partially understand from its similarity to Polish, but I was able to wade through some of it. Amongst others, it shows a two finger grip with loops on index and middle fingers. How the release is accomlished without losing the sling as well may be explained in the text but is beyond me. However the two raised finger grip is very similar to that employed by baseball pitchers. They add to the ball's final velocity by flicking it with their fingertips. If slinging is considered as merely enhanced throwing, there may be scope for incorporating methods used by arguably the world's best throwers into one's technique.

Hallo Aussi

thanks for the bookpreferenz.

I speak much better russian than englisch and am in contact with russian reenactor slingers.

Maybe I get this book - could you pls give me the original titel and maybe also the author.

There is no similar book in german with the subjekt slinging.

The reference is given in "Other Websites", accessible from the homepage.

http://slinging.org/index.php?page=other-websites

Non English Links, towards the bottom of the page. Click on the first entry.

Here's the direct link.

http://www.xlegio.ru/pubs/skobelev/sling1.htm

Wow, lots of illustrations.

I'm sure Jaegoor is right, in that the mediaeval picture is selective and meaningful. But I would also argue that military art tries to get "Realien" right, if it's at all realistic and figurative. So in this case, the traction trebuchet, is well represented, within rules and possibilities of Mediaeval art.

No doubt that the figuring of a lowly slinger has a point. But he is (I think) realistically shown-- with shield, and the grip might be realistic. As I said earlier: I've used such a grip, with a sling I wove and assembled so badly that I could hold it no other way: hooked over index, release cord gripped between medius and ring finger.

Once more: What a versatile weapon/sports item!

This is the Russkie-talk run through Google translation and cleaned up a bit by me:

Option 4

Both the cords ended loops. The loop of the retention cord went on the middle finger, the release cord on the index finger.
This variant is clearly recorded in the Saxon and medieval miniatures of the British VIII and XIV centuries (Strutt, 1876, 136, 137)

Also, look at 'TÉCNICA ITALIANA' three-quarters of the way through this document by Hondero:

http://perso.wanadoo.es/hondero/aprendizajetiro.pdf

About the only reason I can think of for preferring this grip is that it would give you reliable backspin when using an underarm lob.

I will try it at sunday with ottonic shield  8-)

;) Isí

You want to shoot with Shield???? Isi

or use the shield as ammo. :o

he would like to train with Shield and Sling 8-)

Slinging with a shield is easy if it is the type with two straps for forearm and hand.

Hang an ammo bag on your right hand side, take the pouch in your left hand and load it with the right hand like this:

http://www.zinfinium.net/index.php?id=157

Jaegoor, where did this picture come from????

Marc Adkins


Jaegoor wrote on Dec 7^th, 2009 at 2:27pm:

he Slinger on the Trajan column does not show the reality. However, we have developed a technology for Slings and Shields. Here for you a few traditional pictures

winkleried wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:06am:

Jaegoor, where did this picture come from???? Marc Adkins [quote author=Jaegoor link=1257503658/15#22 date=1260214070] Here for you a few traditional pictures

The picture is from the "Liber ad honorem Augusti", by Petrus de Ebulo, a book from 1196 glorifying the rule of the Holy Roman Emperor Heinrich VI. It shows the siege of Salerno (in 1191?) by the emperor who can be seen in the lower part of the image.

The text in Latin and some of the pictures can be seen here http://www.renfroana.150m.com/liberadhonorem.htm

Another picture from the book (not included in the link above) shows a sling held "normally". There is quite a lot of images that show archers, knights and other soldiers, a trebuchet and a fustibal.  

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The fustibal.

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The shield was basically their only protection, as slingers went to battle with little to no armor. Sometimes they had a helmet. The shields were generally small and light, sometimes made of wicker  

I have made a shield to myself. He is suited very well to slinging
Would maybe like you to see a picture??

Fundibularus

The pictures are really great.
I did not know them yet.
Many thanks for it

Thanks Fundi

MArc Adkins


Fundibularius wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 5:56am:

winkleried wrote on Dec 13th, 2009 at 2:06am: Jaegoor, where did this picture come from???? Marc Adkins [quote author=Jaegoor link=1257503658/15#22 date=1260214070] Here for you a few traditional pictures The picture is from the "Liber ad honorem Augusti", by Petrus de Ebulo, a book from 1196 glorifying the rule of the Holy Roman Emperor Heinrich VI. It shows the siege of Salerno (in 1191?) by the emperor who can be seen in the lower part of the image. The text in Latin and some of the pictures can be seen here http://www.renfroana.150m.com/liberadhonorem.htm Another picture from the book (not included in the link above) shows a sling held "normally". There is quite a lot of images that show archers, knights and other soldiers, a trebuchet and a fustibal.

The Staff Slinger takes then stick with both hands and very deeply. He would probably like to shoot very far.

Hello Leuts,

here one more picture.
It is a book painting from the high Mitttelalter.

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Here the shooter over again individually.

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What book or painting is this Jaegoor???


Jaegoor wrote on Dec 16^th, 2009 at 11:58am:

Hello Leuts, here one more picture. It is a book painting from the high Mitttelalter.

Thanks, Jaegoor. I resized the pic to 35 %.

It is a rural scene, not too different from the slinger on the Bayeux tapestry: a horse-drawn harrow (?) followed by a farmer who chases away (or hunts?) crows with a sling.

No warfare this time, but peace, food, country life. I like the versatility of the sling. ;)

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It must be an illustration in a Bible or at least in a psalter. The text above the picture is from psalm 95, v. 8:

Hodie si vocem ejus audieritis, nolite obdurare corda vestra sicut in irritatione, secundum diem tentationis in deserto, ubi tentaverunt me patres vestri : probaverunt me, et viderunt opera mea.

If you hear His voice today, do not harden your hearts (as at Meribah, as at the time of Massah) in the desert,  
when your ancestors challenged me, put me to the test, and saw what I could do!  

Note that the stones seem to be kept in a fold of the tunic, belted so as to create a pouch

The book treats the life "1000" years ago.

In the scene it is just about four seasons.

My cap he works in a game park.

There there are big problems with crows. A hunter them can recognise.

A Slinger for them, however, no danger shows. We could shoot so many crows with the Sling.

Here is the book

http://www.amazon.de/Vor-1000-Jahren-Alltag-Mittelalter/dp/389604673X

I'm sorry to take it back to the shield, but the slinger's did not need protection. They didn't need to enter combat. Enemy archer's and slinger's didn't strike at them- they aimed at the enemy footsoldiers. Slinger's are "skirmishers", cheep units, which you send forth because of their maximum range (which is greater then the archers in the ancient's- Greece and Rome), and you don't care if they get killed because their cheep.
In Roman times they were peasants because a sling was all they could afford, and they weren't intended to get involved in a skirmish.

This are only my thought's in two in the morning, so I could be wrong. ;)

Slingers (well, in the images from antiquity) don't have shields, except for an auxiliary on  Trajan's column. They do fight against other missile troops, though-- in the skirmish line, that's their function. What protects them ? Dispersion, crouching, distance, fire and movement..

So why shielded slingers ? In the med. manuscript, the context is siege warfare-- where dispersion and movement are not possible. That might be one explanation.

Thanks Jaegoor

Marc Adkins


Jaegoor wrote on Dec 17^th, 2009 at 8:02am:

Here is the book http://www.amazon.de/Vor-1000-Jahren-Alltag-Mittelalter/dp/389604673X

I finally found the original source. The harrowing illustration is from the Luttrell Psalter (ca. AD 1330). It is now in the British Library, signature MS 42130.

Thearos wrote on Dec 17^th, 2009 at 9:15pm:

So why shielded slingers ? In the med. manuscript, the context is siege warfare-- where dispersion and movement are not possible. That might be one explanation.

You have a point there.
While roman auxiliary units were often multifunctional, Trajan's column could be correct in the slinger with a shield situation.

I would disagree about the slinger/shield situation.

We know javelin skirmishers carried a shield. Archers cant use a shield but slingers certainly can. And slingers need shields because...?

My hypothesis is that the opening ranged volleys from skirmishers were not initially directed against the enemy heavy infantry but against their skirmish line. These are, after all, the first enemy units to come into range as the armies close on each other.

The slingers and archers are then embroiled in a ferocious firefight against each other for posession of the shrinking centre ground. The javelin throwers are not in range yet and stay well back, probably just in front of the main infantry.

If your sides slingers and archers prevail then you have a big advantage during the next stage, which is the javelin rush. When the enemy infantry is close enough, the javelin throwers charge across the centre ground and start hurling their weapons. This is the first time the main infantry has been targeted, because the javelin is the first weapon that can inflict real damage on heavily armoured and shielded formations.

The focus of the skirmishing battle is to win dominance of the centre ground for your javelin rush. If you lose that dominance, then your javelin men will have to charge into the teeth of enemy slingers and archers, who are able to shoot diagonally thanks to their much greater ranges and thus create a hellish crossfire that a single shield cannot protect against.  :o

After several volleys of javelins with the armies getting perilously close together, its time to get the heck out of the way. The skirmishers near the flanks can run around the ends of their lines but the ones in the middle have to move back through their own infantry. Thats easy enough, if you put up a good show and kept the enemy javelins away from your infantry, they will gladly move aside and let you through. If you sucked, and the enemies javelins have inflicted serious casualties... forget it. You're toast.   :P

Alright, but if we are talking about slingers with led bullets then a wicker shield, as was inclined before, would prove to be no protection at all. AK-47s use led bullets because they can pierce through harder metals because led is softer. Javelin throwers had three javelins, four tops, and you use them to injure the enemy, rarely kill. A javelin goes through a person, does not necessarily kill him, but hinters his movement, possibly even stops him all together, and can't be pulled out.
A bullet thrown from a sling can pierce through shield and armor (probably not both at the same time, depends on the distance), and as such can do serious damage.
If we are taking a roman army for example, as your tactics inclined, than the skirmishers disperse from their formation and easily run between the infantry units because they don't make one unbroken line, they are divided into units that have some space between them, enough for the skirmishers to pass without making a fuss.

Can a lead bullet pierce a wicker shield ? Or even, for that matter, a flat-board wooden shield ? I'd love to see proof of that.

A test for lead bullet penetration against goatskin stretched over two layers of wicker is needed here. I'll bet it doesnt go through, the goatskin will resist tearing while the wicker bends and absorbs the energy, just like a modern flak vest works.

And I dont know what you have in mind when you speak of javelins, but I have two; both 4.5 feet long, one an inch in diameter, the other 3/4 inch. They have sharp steel leaf-bladed heads and are thrown with an amentum. Either of these will absolutely take someone out of a fight, no ifs or buts. Only very good plate armour is going to stop one. Three javelins in the left hand and one in the right is an easy combat loadout.

Romans did fight as a collection of Maniples but before that, armies were arranged as a single long Phalanx:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniple_(military_unit)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_formation

If you are throwing a javelin from a distance of 30 m how many of them are going to put down? Depends on the javelin you use, but they ain't playing golf to have a chance to choose what they will throw.
About the shield, it has to be light to be functional (not to throw you of balance), so I believe that from 50 m there would be no protection at all. I also believe that a bullet could pierce that kind of a shield at a 100 m distance.
That's just what i think, but an experiment is needed! Long live science!

Thearos wrote on Dec 18^th, 2009 at 12:12pm:

Can a lead bullet pierce a wicker shield ? Or even, for that matter, a flat-board wooden shield ? I'd love to see proof of that.

Wood on its own vs a sling stone is easily destroyed, I have often knocked inch thick branches off trees at 80 yards or more. I would like to see wood covered by leather or rawhide tested against lead bullets.

ShuKoon Deda wrote on Dec 18^th, 2009 at 12:44pm:

If you are throwing a javelin from a distance of 30 m how many of them are going to put down? Depends on the javelin you use, but they ain't playing golf to have a chance to choose what they will throw.

I'm not clear on what you mean here.

Anyway, I just did an experiment: two javelins, one staff sling, one broom handle (soon to be another javelin) and a mop. All in the left hand, one between each of the fingers and two under the thumb. All were held securely, I could shake and wave my hand around without dropping them. I then 'loaded' them in turn (using the amentum on the two that had it) with a shot-to-shot speed of four seconds. Thats better than I manage with a sling!

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The way they splay out makes it easy to grab the right amentum. They overlap in a natural last-in-first-out sequence. Plus one already in the throwing hand, thats one hell of a barrage!

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Congrats!
Now you have to strap a shield too. Ah, experimental archeology.
I was thinking of different types of javelins, and different functions, depending on the distance from which it is hurled, width, weight, length and material. A pilum bends on impact, sort of, and stuff like that.

On balance, i still think the evidence for slingers suggest skirmishing with no shield-- even if-- in set battles-- they fight against other light troops

Why on earth would I go out into battle as a slinger without a shield? It doesnt affect my slinging and it protects me against pesky arrows. Get a two-strap shield and try it. When I did it was a complete anti-climax, it was no more difficult to reload and sling than it was without the shield.

The sling has larger range then the bow (not including the english longbow and the composite bow) and so the slingers could take out the archers that have no shield and little armor.
That sounds more reasonable then taking out other skirmishers.

Thanks Fundibularis

Marc Adkins


Fundibularius wrote on Dec 18^th, 2009 at 4:38am:

I finally found the original source. The harrowing illustration is from the Luttrell Psalter (ca. AD 1330). It is now in the British Library, signature MS 42130.

DM: interesting to know it's easy to sling with a shield.

But how many images do we have of shielded slingers ? Granted that we don't have many images of slingers to start with. The Assyrian slingers on palace reliefs are armoures and helmeted, but not shielded (they're protected by siegeworks). The Early Greek images (Myk, rhyton, Geometric pottery) are not shielded. The Makron cup shows up a non-shielded guy (albeit within arrow range), the cup with a slinger in a soft cap shows an animal hide used as makeshift shield (the same practice appears for a stone-thrower on a cup with an archer on the back; N. Sekunda's discussed it a few times, e.g. in his book on the "The Greeks" in the Osprey Elite series). Roman: on Trajan's column, one slinger is shieldless (and has his stones in a fold of his cloak), one is shielded (with a single grip shield). Mediaeval: I don't know the stuff, but Jaegoor's been posting pic's of shielded slingers). Which is how we started.

Two remarks:

1. With a shield strapped to arm, can you do the "aiming" thing which is the starting point for at least some ancient styles, i.e. left hand with pouch held by arm stretched out full length towards target, right arm cocked next to head with fighers facing upwards ? No doubt you can, but the shield may interfere with position or sighting ?

2. In a skirmish line, perhaps the protection for the slinger is range and dispersion-- and running away.

Hi Leuts,

the answer to the question if slingers wore a shield in combat or not may depend on how they were used. A few possibilities:


1. Slingers are standing behind friendly lines and open fire from the cover. With a special sling - with a "splitted letter" -  they can shoot half-ballistically so their shots fall almost vertically from the sky. At the moment when the enemy shields are lifted for protection, archers start shooting at them from the flanks. Only now the infantry and the cavalry start their attack.

2. Slingers are being used as skirmishers. This means they keep enemy forces pinned and occupied. It is mostly done as a protection of the flanks or in front of the actual line. In these cases, a shield would be recommended. Mostly, skirmishers like these carry a short sword to fight hand to hand, if necessary; they are, however, usually vanquished in cases like this. Their strength lies in swift hit-and-run-tactics.

3. Slingers are used as “sniper teams”. They act in small groups which specifically aim at enemy officers and other leaders. They usually act surprisingly, shoot at their targets and disappear as fast as possible. In case of a pursuit by the enemy, they get cover from friendly archers (which may be mounted). The use of light cavalry would also be possible. The teams serve the purpose of macerating the enemy front line. The adversary is supposed to get weakened by and by.

4. Slingers are being used specifically against archers and javeliners. This is done in a loose formation so enemy strafing with arrows cannot unfold its full effect.  In a case like this, slingers would also need a shield as protection. Slingers have great advantages in comparison with archers. They can use all kinds of ammunition, from lead shot to incendiaries to quick lime, combined with caltrops. Soon as the enemy archers are pinned by them, the own infantry or cavalry can advance more easily as they are not (or less likely) being hit by adversary projectiles.

Here is my "battle Shield".

It is postformed to the Shield from the Mac Bible.

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From the back

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A beauty. But no slinging with that on your left fist...

Hi Thearos!

Well, yes, it works quite well... as many german reenactor-"heroes" had to experience.
To bind a shield to your arm is to bind yourself. It keeps one from using the shield active in close combat.

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How do you reload if your left hand is gripping a single grip shield ?

Most of the mediaeval images show shielded slingers in the context of siege fighting. One, in a related thread, shows a C15th ms. with a shielded slinger skirmishing against archers (battle of Najera, described by Froissart-- I assume this is Du Guesclin's Spanish foray, with a desciption of slings in Froissart's narrative ?).

So: more visual, or even textual sources, for shielded slingers ? Otherwise, I would propose the hypothesis that it reflects the particular conditions, and dangers, of siege warfare-- concentration of men in small space, no space for the usual manoeuver and evasive moves of the skirmish line.

The concept of standardization was not a part of ancient armies, and each piece of kit varied some from person to person. I'd imagine personal wealth (pastoralists might have hide shields, etc.) and opportunism might be important factors, too. If I found a dead skirmisher from the other side with a wicker shield laying buy him, I'd take it!

Hi Leuts,

Here a picture of a Slinger in underpants

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I interpredate the grasp as a retention Toggle

I dont have a single grip shield available but I tried reloading while holding a Stanley knife in my left hand, it was only slightly more difficult than with a free hand. I was surprised! Slinging with a single grip shield must be possible...

Wow. What's the sequence of gestures ?

Jaegoor wrote on Dec 26^th, 2009 at 7:33pm:

Hi Leuts, Here a picture of a Slinger in underpants

Another interesting find, Jaegoor. The medieval version of bermuda shorts, ideal for going out to hunt magpies in a hot summer.  ;)

I wonder if the outstretched hand and finger are the same thing some of us (including me) do when they "point" towards the target with the unarmed hand before the throw. Or do they point at the "B" of "Beatus" only?

I think this as is as you suppose.

The standing  is interesting also. It strengthens my theory from shoot from the hip.

We spoke once of it Fundi

I'm betting he is about to do a sweeping underhand for a near-vertical shot. But I wouldn't want to read too much into medieval illustrations. If we did, we would expect castles to be nine feet high and made only of obtuse angles ;D  

That depends, I think. Some details in clothes or gestures can be astonishingly accurate. As for "naturalism" in buildings... Well, people were smaller then, weren't they?  ;) :-/ ;)

If were talking about realism then he's trying to hit a bird in flight. He's aiming a bit too high, if that is aiming at all.

Maybe he just tries to scare it away.

And let's not forget that the image was probably painted by a monk. He surely watched other people (laymen) slinging, but I'm not sure if clergymen were allowed to use the sling themselves. Interesting question, btw.

If they are allowed to use daggers, poison and whores, then why not slings?

He's pointing at the B, the first letter of the scripture.

ShuKoon Deda wrote on Jan 5^th, 2010 at 6:01am:

If they are allowed to use daggers, poison and whores, then why not slings?

:-? When and where - apart from bad novels and movies - were medieval monks allowed to use them?

I guess he's aiming at the magpie. Why the letter?

Correction: the dagger goes for the Knights Templar, but they did not copy any manuscripts.

Hi Leuts,


here I have a nice Slinger picture for You.
It shows David against Goliath.
Very interesting I find the Sling.

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Could it be something like an Apache style sling? The grip seems very strange to me.

And Goliath does not look very dangerous. No sword, no spear, not even a shield, just a staff. But who knows, he might be a Philistine ninja. ;)

Where is that picture from Jaegoor? I cant quite put my finger on why, but I think its modern.

Hi David, hola Fundi

Here this is the document for the picture.

The missing arming of Goliath is noteworthy. Maybe a tip for the disregard of the opponent.


But also the Slings is interesting. Can it be which is not twisted they, but only is drilled??


Kunstwerk: Buchmalerei ; Illustrationszyklus Bibel ; Miniatur ; Wien , Salzburg
Dokumentation: 1448 ; 1448 ; Wien ; Österreich ; Wien ; Österreichische Nationalbibliothek ; cod. 2774 ;
fol. 120r
Anmerkungen: Wien ; Bibelparaphrase

The cords do not look braided, anyway. Twined (?)

I have found the same scene still in other pictures. The resemblances are crazy.
However, the Slings differ.
If I come in addition, I show them to You.

David Morningstar wrote on Jan 28^th, 2010 at 5:37am:

Where is that picture from Jaegoor? I cant quite put my finger on why, but I think its modern.

I think it's the colours; they're too bright and they look like modern watercolour paints. Perhaps it's an old line drawing, reprinted and coloured in.

No. So much I know one is an original Bible manuscript.
Colours in the Middle Ages were often very strong and long-lasting.
I saw once a painting on keramik 8 centuries. They Just brilliantly

Hi Leuts,
Here another historical David Bild.   ;) ;) ;)

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Ouch... :D

:). The stone at the moment of meeting Goliath's forehead. David holding the sling with (the same? the next?) stone ready.

In a way it reminds of some movies where the camera repeats certain shots/kicks/blows/movements 2-3 times because the director or cameraman was so proud of having caught them.

Hi,

this is a third one - showing the fight david against Goliath.

Do you see how similar the pictures are?
Maybe you could tell me how you would interprate the pictures.

---

a new Picture

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Dialogus de laudibus sanctae crucis 1170

Beautiful picture with a number of interesting details.

Hi everybody, here's a picture of what I think is a roman slinger:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs051.ash2/35904_125250187513828_100000865414126_117421_5084408_n.jpg
I like the sling he is using. It looks like an apache to me.
The image is from this website:
http://community.imaginefx.com/fxpose/johnny_shumates_portfolio/default.aspx
There are a lot of other great illustrations over there, check them out! ;)

TheGoodGuy wrote on Jun 15^th, 2010 at 3:14pm:

Hi everybody, here's a picture ...

Yeah ... the artist was active on this forum when I first started here.

Some other pictures by him are in the gallery http://slinging.org/index.php?mact=Album,m5,default,1&m5albumid=18&m5returnid=53&page=53

As for this one... well painted and with a number of details like the glans, but the slinger is much too clean for somebody who moves to and fro quickly in the dust clouds of combat.

Most of all, I like the neat 1990s hair and beard cut.  ;)

A long discussion on Shumate's paintings here

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1254166093

Some points:

It's meant to be a Rhodian slinger, I think. He has a plaited, Balearic type sling with sewn-on pouch.

The sling bullet is a bit too big (ancient examples are 3-4 cm long)

There is no visual evidence for how ancient Greek slingers carried their ammo bags (which are mentioned by Xenophon in the Anabasis)-- except one cup, by the Makron painter, showing a guy carrying a small bag in the crook in his arm

The inscription, DEXAI, "take (that)", is attested, but the securely dated examples are from C1st BC Athens

Fundibularius wrote on Jun 15^th, 2010 at 4:37pm:

Some other pictures by him are in the gallery http://slinging.org/index.php?mact=Album,m5,default,1&m5albumid=18&m5returnid=53&page=53 As for this one... well painted and with a number of details like the glans, but the slinger is much too clean for somebody who moves to and fro quickly in the dust clouds of combat. Most of all, I like the neat 1990s hair and beard cut.  ;)

Yep, the haircut is the best, and what, couldn't ancient slingers take a shower during battle?

TheGoodGuy wrote on Jun 16^th, 2010 at 4:41am:

and what, couldn't ancient slingers take a shower during battle?

Only showers of arrows, javelins and glandes sent by the other side  ;)

As there is no direct evidence for what the bags looked like, I am not so strict about the one in the picture. Could have been.

I doubt the red tunic or chiton, though, as it may have been too expensive to dye cloth this way. Brown, grey or (dirty) white would be more probable.

And, from my point of view, the guy is much too well-fed and athletic for an ancient slinger. I imagine them to have been skinny, wiry boys, mostly very young (maybe 15-25 years), with the capacity to move around swiftly for hours. This guy has a heavy infantryman's figure.

My apologies to Johnny S. I appreciate very much his attempts to put flesh on rare and dry information from the antique sources. I hope my criticism is understood as constructive.

(Wish I could draw or paint one percent as well.  :-[)

You're probably right, Jaegoor, but being me, I have to try it.  I'm finishing up a seatbelt sling with a big retention loop for the three fingers and a slightly bigger than normal loop to slip easily off of the pointer.  Hopefully I'll get a chance to use it this afternoon or tonight.  If it's a failure, I can just cut the big loops off, tie a finger loop in the traditional way,  and easily make it a standard seatbelt sling.

Hi Leuts,


The Ammo is not too big. There is ammunition in 200 and even 300 gr. I myself often shoot with 200gr.
The small lenses did not become individually shot separate as a Schroot.

And also the colour is very easy red to colour.
Namely with Krapphttp://www.seilnacht.com/Lexikon/Krapp.htm
Many mistake red with purpur

TheGoodGuy wrote on Jun 15^th, 2010 at 3:14pm:

Hi everybody, here's a picture of what I think is a roman slinger: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs051.ash2/35904_125250187513828_100000865414126_117421_5084408_n.jpg I like the sling he is using. It looks like an apache to me. The image is from this website: http://community.imaginefx.com/fxpose/johnny_shumates_portfolio/default.aspx There are a lot of other great illustrations over there, check them out! ;)

thats actually a rhodian or greek slinger; whats surprising is that i commented on his portfolio site, i said that would be cool if u made some rhodian slingers,  then 2 pictures of rhodian slingers popped up sometime after i commented

Jabames wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 4:14am:

thats actually a rhodian or greek slinger

How do I see that? I mean, where is the difference to other slingers? Is it the colour of the chiton or tunic that tells us he's from the island of the roses?

Or is it the haircut after all?

u see the name at the top of the pic? it says greek slinger, if u look around his portfolio u'll find a rhodian slinger too
http://community.imaginefx.com/fxpose/johnny_shumates_portfolio/picture76672.aspx

Jaegoor: the lead bullet is too big for an ancient Greek slinger-- your own experience slinging heavy stones is irrelevant here.

Ancient sling bullets are quite small. Around 100 grams is really the maximum attested. The average is about 30-40 grams. The figures were tabulated by Visscher in his corpus, and also by Manfred Korfmann. Some sling bullets are surprisingly small and light-- e.g. the ones in the name of Agroitas, found at Eretria, are smaller than my thumb.

So: you can sling heavy weights. But ancient slingers choose to sling light. Why ? To achieve very high speeds, and to pack as many projectiles as possible in battle conditions.

I think this the small balls as a Schroot were shot. This raises the treffer effect considerably.
However, in Spain I clearly saw bigger leads.
Also stones.
The weight for stones in competitions amounts to 200 g

Some of the heavy leads (100+ grams) might be used for catapults; there is one reference for multiple lead shot in a catapult. But the small lead bullets are probably for the sling. Anyway, to repeat myself: the sling bullet in the pic by Shumate is rather larger than the ancient Greek examples known.

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1282647004/0#0


Very obvious, I guess

(9th picture from above)

Aussie wrote on Dec 7^th, 2009 at 5:45pm:

Midway down the picture is a slinger with a shield. Notice the unusual thumbless grip he uses. The release is a simple loop over the index finger. About a year ago someone posted some pictures of slingers in the Kenyan disturbances using this style of release. There seemed to be some controversy that the photos were merely posed and that style of release wouldn't really be practical. However the fine detail on this picture makes me think that it is accurate and not merely artistic license. I know that Eoraptor holds the release bead between her index and middle fingers. Does anyone on the forum use this loop or other unusual release styles?

I've done it that way for a few slinging sessions when I had a massive blister on my ring finger. It takes a little getting used to, but by the end of a slinging session, I was nearing my normal accuracy levels.

I pretty much have to hold my index finger like in the picture because if I don't hook onto it tightly, the sling will fly off. (and it has.)  :P

I tried releasing the loop rather than the release cord, and it didn't work anywhere near as well as releasing the release cord.

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TheGoodGuy wrote on Jun 15^th, 2010 at 3:14pm:

Hi everybody, here's a picture of what I think is a roman slinger: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs051.ash2/35904_125250187513828_100000865414126_117421_5084408_n.jpg ...

The gland he has says otherwise. ;)
("Dexa")

Jaegoor wrote on Sep 7^th, 2010 at 4:33pm:

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1282647004/0#0 Very obvious, I guess (9th picture from above)

In this picture from Trajan's column, a slinger throws VERY large stones-- how realistic that is remains open to debate. To give an idea of how small ancient Greek sling bullets are, here's a picture. The thing on the right is the top of a biro / ballpoint pen.

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Jaegoor wrote on Aug 20^th, 2010 at 6:51am:

And also the colour is very easy red to colour. Namely with Krapphttp://www.seilnacht.com/Lexikon/Krapp.htm Many mistake red with purpur

According to that website, madder (krapp) was first used in the 5th century CE in central europe, and would thus be anachronistic.

Also, from what I've read, purpur was an ox blood red, rather than the purple most people think of.

how would someone consistently load and throw holding a shield? was the other hand free? the more I think about it the more I think an ancient army could have been formed from mostly slingers in an english longbow type fashion. I may understand better if I saw an image that showed slingers in context to the whole battle.

does anyone have any ancient americas battle scenes that someone has drawn?  

mossdog427 wrote on Jun 12^th, 2011 at 12:07pm:

how would someone consistently load and throw holding a shield? was the other hand free? the more I think about it the more I think an ancient army could have been formed from mostly slingers in an english longbow type fashion. I may understand better if I saw an image that showed slingers in context to the whole battle. does anyone have any ancient americas battle scenes that someone has drawn?

To answer the shield question, here is a video of one of our members (Timann) Slinging with a shield.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz0DPMU5hwg

More slinging with a shield. I'm a bit rubbish at first but the last couple of shots are okay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJpLjc8S6c4

Mr Potter,

 I received your name from Aussie.  I teach a sunday school class for young adults.  I can think of no better way of bringing the story of David And Goliath to life than showing them that if they have belisef in God anything is possible.  Could you or would you have something on hand for sale that resembles what David would of used?  I know the biblical record makes no reference to kind of sling used.  I would assume it was made of wool but that is just a guess.  It would mean a lot to several people.  If you have something on hand I will take care of the bill myself,

Please let me know
Mike Kearne
god Bless

The Battle of Nájera, also known as the Battle of Navarrete, was fought on 3 April 1367 between an Anglo-Gascon army and Franco-Castilian forces near Nájera, in the province of La Rioja, Castile.

http://www.vallenajerilla.com/berceo/rioja-abierta/batalladenajera.jpg

Froissart describes the battle of Najera-- the relevant passage is:

The Spanish commoners made use of slings, to which they were used, and from which they threw large stones which at first much annoyed the English; but when their first cast was over, and they felt the sharpness of the English arrows, they no longer kept their order.

http://www.slovane.cz/pic/prak/korfmann.gif
http://www.slovane.cz/pic/prak/bayeux.jpg

http://curiavitkov.cz/valka35.html

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/785-705_Elite_slinger.jpg

Thanks for the pics sobieski, the last one is an Assyrian slinger if i am right?

AncientCraftwork wrote on Aug 26^th, 2011 at 7:31am:

Thanks for the pics sobieski, the last on is an Assyrian slinger if i am right?

probably yes

Balearic slinger http://www.profimedia.cz/fotografie/balearske-prakovnici-mirys/profimedia-0021185329.jpg

King David as depicted on Castle La Manta's 1420 fresco (top left):

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc428/MauroFiorentini/LaMantaeroi.jpg

Hopefully better pics will come soon  :)
Greetings,
Mauro.

Does Asterix count as "ancient"  ::) ?

You can see Caesar stoned by the son of the spanish village chief (with french text :P) here

http://pre10.deviantart.net/b173/th/pre/i/2015/064/1/0/honderos_baleares_by_meldelen-d27gpt7.jpg
A balearic slinger...
(please click the picture for more info)

How many slingers are able to slin with a body slung over the shoulder ?

What pic ?

Here is the link in link form : http://meldelen.deviantart.com/art/Honderos-Baleares-133469611

Caldou wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 10:12am:

Does Asterix count as "ancient"  ::) ? You can see Caesar stoned by the son of the spanish village chief (with french text :P) here

Wow, I was a massive fan of Asterix as a kid but I had completely forgotten that! You can see the artist didn't know how a sling actually works, which is a shame.

Here is my photo of the slinger in Castillo de Bellver. You can see the wine amphora at his feet, I believe this is a reference to the 'wine and women' reputation of the Balearic mercenaries.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ZQ5jSdvoNBk/VRGpG70xMEI/AAAAAAAAGB8/fu-H8Zr5XuA/w780-h577-no/IMG_20150228_123739.jpg

Yeah that was very cool.

The slingers didn't get paid in money, but in wine and women.

Just as well they probably would have spent the money on the same two things anyways ;)