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General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> Balearic slingers: arms
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Message started by Thearos on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 7:07am

Title: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by Thearos on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 7:07am
I have not seen

J. Cameron "The Humerus of the Ancient Slingers of Minorca", in J. Cameron (ed.), The skeleton of British Neolithic Man (1934), 209 ff

(quoted in Anochin and Rolle, Griechische Schleuderbleu bei den Mauern von Olbia, in Rolle et al, Archaologische Studien in Kontaktzonen der Antiken Welt, Gottingen 1998, 838-9)

but apparently, examination of skeletons from the Baleares shows deformation of the right arm, probably a trace of specialization in use of the sling. (no indication on dates, will have to look up the original publication).

FWIW

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by wanderer on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 7:40am
That looks an interesting lead.

I suppose the distinguishing feature of the Balearic bodies would be that the modifications would be attributable to slinging as opposed to other missile throwing activities.

I wonder if spiral fractures were ever found, or adaptions indicative of torsion on the bone.

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by David Morningstar on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 8:11am
If its different from 'atlatl elbow' which is well-known in many places, this would be interesting.

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by wanderer on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 8:46am

David Morningstar wrote on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 8:11am:
If its different from 'atlatl elbow' which is well-known in many places, this would be interesting.


I don't throw with atlatls (or even woomeras ;)), so I've never heard of that. I would guess there would be quite similar adaptations between such dart throwing and overhand slinging. I think one would see different adaptations if the throwing style were more sidearm.

I had no idea people were looking at such things back in the 1930's If anyone locates the original reference, please let us know. I'd love to read it.

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by Thearos on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 9:34am
Usually, fighters have big left arms-- because of hefting a shield around.

I suppose it is interesting to see this kind of work in the  1930s. Work on battlefield trauma from Wisby is 1941. I read a book on human bones and archaeo, which paid homage to an English pioneer who died int he 1950s, in fact I read that pioneering book (Bones and disease ??) five years ago-- and can't remember who it was by.



Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by curious_aardvark on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 10:30am

Quote:
Usually, fighters have big left arms-- because of hefting a shield around.  

And big right arms from swinging swords, :-)

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by Rockman on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 4:09pm
My right arm is deformed from all my slinging. Look at pictures of tennis players and you'll noticed one arm is thicker than the other

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by Thearos on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 4:40pm
For an example of a skeleton of an ancient fighter, the "soldier" found at Sardis (e.g. When a Mighty Empire Was Destroyed: The Common Man at the Fall of Sardis, ca. 546 B. C.
Crawford H. Greenewalt, Jr.
Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society, Vol. 136, No. 2 (Jun., 1992), pp. 247-271)

--20-26 year old man, killed in capture of Sardis (546 BC), very strong left arm (shield), also traces of repetitve rotative activity on left arm; healed wound to the head; compressed neck vertebrae from wearing helmet. Pretty typical, perhaps, of what a heavy infantryman's bones looked like

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by Aussie on Apr 27th, 2009 at 4:47am
I realize C-A's comment above was tongue in cheek but seriously just how heavy is the "average" shield and why would it need to be so substantial that it would cause skeletal deformation? Wouldn't such a heavy shield limit the user's speed and ability to defend himself? And seriously, why wouldn't his right arm be equally developed from fighting and training with whatever weapon he was armed with?

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by Fundibularius on Apr 27th, 2009 at 6:10am
The shield was actually more important than the sword, at least for "civilised" infantry soldiers like hoplites or legionaries. The most essential aspect in a battle after the "missile phase" was to maintain one's own order and formation intact and break the enemies' by pushing against it - mainly with the shields.

Surely the sword had its part, and legionaries were also trained in "fencing" (whatever that meant at the time), but ancient battles were no swashbuckling competitions, as Hollywood has them. That would have been a "barbarian" way to fight, and it usually proved ineffective against Greek or Roman well-organised shield-protected lines.

It makes sense that training the handling of the shield (which, if I remember correctly, was quite heavy in most Greek armies) had a greater impact on a professional fighter's anatomy (i.e. his left arm) than the use of javelins or swords for his right. The shield had to be in use during the whole time or at least long periods of a battle (which could mean several hours), whereas spears, lances, swords etc. probably came into action only in relatively short phases.

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by Aussie on Apr 27th, 2009 at 8:17am
Thanks for the reply. Do I understand you correctly that the idea was to virtually knock the enemy over and then presumably slaughter them on the ground?

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by Thearos on Apr 27th, 2009 at 6:11pm
I agree with what Fundibularius writes. Ancient shields can be two griped (a hoop through which the arm goes, a grip on the edge of the shield) or single gripped (a handle in the centre of the shield board). The Greek "aspis" (called "hoplon" only after the Classical period) is an example of the first type, the Roman scutum (and Celtic shield) of the second. Weight > Say 8 kgs. The sword might weigh 2 kg or less.

The shield stays "up" during manoeuver and battle; arm muscles locked into place (as any Dark Ages or earlier reenactor will tell you). Not clear what actually happens at the sharp end of edged weapon combat; e.g. Adrian Goldsworthy v. good on this. Probably front-fighters, in loose but not too lose formation, two deep, jostle and fight behind raised shields, with spear and sword, aiming for vulnerable bits and aiming for the knock out blow (throat; arteries in thigh. groin). Possibly men fall back to catch breath, and odd pauses happen. A lot of shoving with shields. As melee progresses, lines grow closer, spears break and sword work means fighters step in and can't fall back away from the killing zone anymore-- and eventually the two masses square off. But the actually mechanics by which one battle line physically drives away the other not clear (do people start panicking at the back ?).

Anyway, this is the model now proposed (Goldsworthy, Krentz, van Wees-- see e.g. the recently publishee Cambridge Companion to Ancient Warfare)-- rather than the old model of battle lines physically crashing into each other (Keegan, Hanson). But all the while, men are lugging contraptions the weight of small suitcases with their left arms.

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by winkleried on Apr 27th, 2009 at 6:45pm
Theros,
DO you by any chance have electronic copies of the articles that you mentioned. I would love to see them and no longer have the unlimited academic access that I once had.
Thanks

Marc Adkins

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by Fundibularius on Apr 28th, 2009 at 5:57am

Quote:
Do I understand you correctly that the idea was to virtually knock the enemy over and then presumably slaughter them on the ground?


Thearos' description says it. Not really knock over, but push back, keep your own line in order and seek opportunities to inflict damage on the enemy. The main idea was to break the cohesion in the enemy's army. It was a lot more collective work than individual martial art.

An "exemplary" battle in my opinion would be like this: First, there is the "missile phase" with far distance weapons like slings and bows which test the other one's "structural integrity". Quite a few battles in antiquity already ended at this point when one side suffered too heavy losses  and fled to fight another day. If not, there may be a second missile phase (e.g. for Roman armies) when infantrymen throw spears at each other from a short distance (<15 m).

If, after that, both sides are still willing and able to continue, the hand-to hand-phase follows, or better shield-to-shield-phase, and this is indeed a lot more shoving and pushing against each other than picturesque sword duels. Shield lines clash, each side tries to impose pressure on the other, and out of the cover of one's (and one's neighbour's) shield, the fighters seek an opportunity to inflict wounds with the sword on unprotected parts of enemy bodies if possible. Short, biting stings rather than blows (which would expose your own arm dangerously to the enemies' blades). It is not necessary to kill an opponent; one successful hit with your sword to his arm or leg or face will stop him from fighting (even if the injury is not very serious), and while he retreats to seek shelter, he disturbs the order of his own ranks. One can as well imagine blows with the edge of the shield towards enemy shinbones, feet etc which can have a similar consequence. Maybe there are not even many killings in this phase, but losses due to wounds, pain, or the impossibility to use one's own sword or shield (because of exhaustion, or as it may be damaged or have a few of these damned pila sticking in it). At one point, the order of the front line is dissolved when the warriors see the men next to them go back and leave them unprotected from the sides, so they get nervous and start withdrawing too, and the order collapses and turns into a hasty retreat which is quickly adapted by the fellow soldiers at the rear. The side with the stronger cohesion, better protection of the individual soldier by his shield and his comrades and more effective system of exchanging its wounded or exhausted fighters from and to the front line will prevail.

After this, with the enemy running, comes the hour of the cavalry pursuit (which causes most of the killings as they generally hack the poor ones down from behind and above).

The Greeks and, even more, the Macedonians, were masters of the "cohesion aspect" during infantry battle (heavy hoplites, phalanx) whereas the Romans added a lot more flexibility to the whole system and gave a lighter yet larger and probably more versatile shield to its legionaries (edge just above ground which can be used to flatten enemies' toes).

Sorry for the abundance of words. I guess we drifted a bit away from the topic Balearic slingers' arms  :-?

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by Aussie on Apr 28th, 2009 at 8:05am
Sorry to veer off the topic just that little bit more but it's connected.

In Chess the pawns advance in a straight line but capture diagonally. They represent infantry who would have trouble striking the enemy directly in front of them but have a better chance stabbing out the side of their shields. Also pawns cannot retreat same as in real battle where retreat is just a step away from rout.

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by Aussie on Apr 28th, 2009 at 8:09am

Thearos wrote on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 4:40pm:
For an example of a skeleton of an ancient fighter, the "soldier" found at Sardis (e.g. When a Mighty Empire Was Destroyed: The Common Man at the Fall of Sardis, ca. 546 B. C.
Crawford H. Greenewalt, Jr.
Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society, Vol. 136, No. 2 (Jun., 1992), pp. 247-271)

--20-26 year old man, killed in capture of Sardis (546 BC), very strong left arm (shield), also traces of repetitve rotative activity on left arm; healed wound to the head; compressed neck vertebrae from wearing helmet. Pretty typical, perhaps, of what a heavy infantryman's bones looked like


Why rotative activity with the left arm? Was he one of the famed left-handed Benjamite slingers who could sling at a hair's breadth and not miss?

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by Lycurgus on Apr 28th, 2009 at 8:49am

Thearos wrote on Apr 27th, 2009 at 6:11pm:
I agree with what Fundibularius writes. Ancient shields can be two griped (a hoop through which the arm goes, a grip on the edge of the shield) or single gripped (a handle in the centre of the shield board). The Greek "aspis" (called "hoplon" only after the Classical period) is an example of the first type, the Roman scutum (and Celtic shield) of the second. Weight > Say 8 kgs. The sword might weigh 2 kg or less.

The shield stays "up" during manoeuver and battle; arm muscles locked into place (as any Dark Ages or earlier reenactor will tell you). Not clear what actually happens at the sharp end of edged weapon combat; e.g. Adrian Goldsworthy v. good on this. Probably front-fighters, in loose but not too lose formation, two deep, jostle and fight behind raised shields, with spear and sword, aiming for vulnerable bits and aiming for the knock out blow (throat; arteries in thigh. groin). Possibly men fall back to catch breath, and odd pauses happen. A lot of shoving with shields. As melee progresses, lines grow closer, spears break and sword work means fighters step in and can't fall back away from the killing zone anymore-- and eventually the two masses square off. But the actually mechanics by which one battle line physically drives away the other not clear (do people start panicking at the back ?).

Anyway, this is the model now proposed (Goldsworthy, Krentz, van Wees-- see e.g. the recently publishee Cambridge Companion to Ancient Warfare)-- rather than the old model of battle lines physically crashing into each other (Keegan, Hanson). But all the while, men are lugging contraptions the weight of small suitcases with their left arms.



Hello,
As probably the only person on here who has spent time in a phalanx (There werre 7 of us ;D) I can confirm that the Greek shield or Aspis can be heavy to carry around for any length of time, but not so heavy as to be exhausting (about 14lbs is average). With the central Paupax you take a most of the weight at your elbow with the Antilabe handle at the rim used to prevent the Aspis pivoting when struck. As it is held mainly in one position during formation stamina rather than strength is the main requirement.
The Aspis is also larger than most people think as it has to protect from neck to knee and being circular almost the entire left hand side extends to cover the hoplite to the left, hence the right side of any phalanx was the weakest side.
Because of its design, the Aspis is only effective when used in a phalanx, it is to cumbersome to use in a one-on-one fight and virtually useless if used when dueling with swords of the same period.


Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by Thearos on Apr 28th, 2009 at 10:32am
Aussie: of course, I meant right arm.

Lycurgus: note that the idea that "aspis-fighters were useless outside of the phalanx" is now challenged. H. van Wees, Greek warfare, reality and myths, gives the strongest statement of this. Some references (I haven;'t got texts to hand): In Herodotos 5, there is an Argive, Eurybates, who likes to fight duels; the man who kills him, Sophanes of Dekeleia, is then famed for his prowess in battle (Hdt 9.73, i think); Sokrates, in the retreat after Delion, kept his shield and his cool, and scared off pursuing Boiotian cavalry (Plato Symposion); early C5th vases regularly show one on one fighting between aspis fighters; C7th Crete shows weapons captured by individual fighters, presumably in duels (Hoffmann, Cretan armorers); Thucydides (e.g. Book 4, Brasidas' fighting), and Xenophon (Anabasis; also Hellenica) show you hoplites, with aspis, carrying out all kinds of loose formation fighting. Of course, this is not to say that most hoplites or panhoploi fought in serried ranks; just that they were more of all rounders than sometimes admitted. The pyrriche, dance in arms, with its violent shield movements and twists and turns and stamps (very recognizable to anyone who fences), is presumably related to this

Finally, as a past reenactor (I stopped when I got stabbed in the eye with a blunt sword), I can say that double grip shield is no problem for one on one duelling (it's the single grips that are much trickier). Mediaeval guys do double grip shield duelling all the time (say C13th century guys)

FWIW-- and away from our Balearic humeruses.



Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by Lycurgus on Apr 28th, 2009 at 10:56am

Thearos wrote on Apr 28th, 2009 at 10:32am:
Aussie: of course, I meant right arm.

Lycurgus: note that the idea that "aspis-fighters were useless outside of the phalanx" is now challenged. H. van Wees, Greek warfare, reality and myths, gives the strongest statement of this. Some references (I haven;'t got texts to hand): In Herodotos 5, there is an Argive, Eurybates, who likes to fight duels; the man who kills him, Sophanes of Dekeleia, is then famed for his prowess in battle (Hdt 9.73, i think); Sokrates, in the retreat after Delion, kept his shield and his cool, and scared off pursuing Boiotian cavalry (Plato Symposion); early C5th vases regularly show one on one fighting between aspis fighters; C7th Crete shows weapons captured by individual fighters, presumably in duels (Hoffmann, Cretan armorers); Thucydides (e.g. Book 4, Brasidas' fighting), and Xenophon (Anabasis; also Hellenica) show you hoplites, with aspis, carrying out all kinds of loose formation fighting. Of course, this is not to say that most hoplites or panhoploi fought in serried ranks; just that they were more of all rounders than sometimes admitted. The pyrriche, dance in arms, with its violent shield movements and twists and turns and stamps (very recognizable to anyone who fences), is presumably related to this

Finally, as a past reenactor (I stopped when I got stabbed in the eye with a blunt sword), I can say that double grip shield is no problem for one on one duelling (it's the single grips that are much trickier). Mediaeval guys do double grip shield duelling all the time (say C13th century guys)

FWIW-- and away from our Balearic humeruses.



Ok, come over here and lets try a duel ;).
I know duelling is possible but in my experience, in order to use the sword effectively the shield has to be held to the side when attacking (or it just gets in the way of any swing or thrust) then moved back to block the counter-attack. This is fine when against an equally armed foe but against a lightly armed and nimble attacker it is sometimes better to chuck the shield aside, sorry, place carefully and reverently on the floor!
Also the size of the Aspis means that in windy conditions it can act a bit like a sail and is best kept tight to the body, not swung about.

Mediaevel shields are generally smaller and the grips are positioned differently.

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by Thearos on Apr 29th, 2009 at 6:07pm
Mark: sorry for delay in replying. Will look to see what I have-- but the answer is not very much at the time being. I still recommend Hans van Wees, Greek warfare, myth and realities !

Title: Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Post by winkleried on Apr 30th, 2009 at 12:00am
Ok works for me. I was hoping you might have something along those lines on your hard drive.

Marc Adkins


Thearos wrote on Apr 29th, 2009 at 6:07pm:
Mark: sorry for delay in replying. Will look to see what I have-- but the answer is not very much at the time being. I still recommend Hans van Wees, Greek warfare, myth and realities !


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