Have a look at this elderly gentleman slinging with what he calls a "stonethrower" as taught to him by a Comanche Indian nearly 70 years ago. The style is almost exactly Fig.8! An absolutely fascinating clip and easy to miss as he purposely avoids using the name slingshot or sling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaIT9HcnVqg

The old man has good form,accuracy and power.He looks natural and relaxed,and altogether much more convincing than the "Apache" stuff going around.

 Thanks Aussie,

                    Brett

What a great find. Get him on the forum immediately! :)

lol - it's hard to stay humble when you're feeling this smug :-)

Wonder why he never called it a sling though - odd that. And yep that's definitely fig8.

Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 6^th, 2008 at 8:10am:

lol - it's hard to stay humble when you're feeling this smug :-)

About what? - in particular? :D

Its a figure-8 turned around 90 degrees. The rotation is in front then behind and the throw is out of the plane of rotation.

Since the historical provenance is about as good as it gets, and it is distinctly different from its closest similar style, I propose we adopt this as the Comanche style.

I dont want to see this just chucked into the big figure-8 melting pot, especially since the figure-8 has no particular historical or ethnographic link.

Nice one Aussie, this is a fantastic find!

awsome find did you check out part two where are the wooly mamoths i and my sling are a going hunting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmIS1-kQFHo&feature=related

Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 6^th, 2008 at 8:10am:

lol - it's hard to stay humble when you're feeling this smug :-) Wonder why he never called it a sling though - odd that. And yep that's definitely fig8.

Recalling recent discussions about everything tasting like chicken I was specifically guarded about calling it Fig.8 unequivocally. It is slightly different from the demonstrations by Nwmanitou and Mark Weaver but IMHO well within being merely a personal interpretation not a different style. Still great to get your personal blessing on the matter, C-A.

He doesn't call it a sling/slingshot because that's what his Comanche mentor asked him. As he does not seem to make the clear distinction between sling and slingshot that we do here on slinging.org perhaps he insists on stone thrower to avoid confusion.

However what got me particularly excited is that here at last we have a living primary source for Native American slinging, who goes back 20 years earlier than Forsyth. Also I know that Comanche isn't Apache but certainly in the same general part of the world, so perhaps we can at last find out exactly what constitutes Apache style. For some time I have had a suspicion that Forsyth's description is missing detail and that Apache is actually some variation of hanging pouch start Fig.8.

I reckon it is our duty to preserve and respect the historical source of this style, which is why it merits being named as a style in its own right.

Also, throwing out of the plane of rotation is a big conceptual step and brings practical consequences too, since the timing of the start of the forward throw becomes far more critical for the final trajectory.

With luck and good weather I will try and do some Comanche style slinging of tennis balls in the park at lunchtime.

At the risk of veering slightly off-topic:

I am confident that we have got the Apache throw correct. The description "very quickly swing your arm and sling up from behind you and over the top in an overhand throw while attempting to keep your arm as straight and long as you can for airspeed" doesnt suggest and kind of fig-8 to me.

The relatively awkward elements of the Apache throw are dictated by tactical considerations, i.e. the need to get the stone flying before your prey can react. Considered purely on throwing terms, its not great. Considered as a package intended to put meat on the table, it makes a lot of sense.

Hi David,

Generally I agree with your point of view and  have posted extensively on this subject before hoping that someone would be able to come up with some other primary source for Apache style. The only other that has come to light so far is a small partial clip of an Inuit kid slinging at some seagulls using what appears to be Apache. At first I took this as an independent verification but it has also been pointed out the kid was very young and his throwing may have been a youngsters flailing attempt rather than an accurate copy of a style taught by adults. I also know how hard it is to accurately describe any action in words alone. Reuben's fine video clip of his interpretation of Apache certainly appears to follow Forsyth's description. However I just can't imagine being able to sling hard enough to kill a deer or a human being using that style and Foryth claims that Grandfather was able to and presumably had done both. Perhaps, just perhaps, our understanding of Forsyth is in error.

Whatever the case this gentleman is a living treasure and I am just itching to hear all he has to say on the subject, though I think his primary interest is the atlatl. As far a naming rights for the style, I certainly think that honour should go to him.

Regards,

Aussie

Aussie wrote on Oct 7^th, 2008 at 4:59am:

Hi David, However I just can't imagine being able to sling hard enough to kill a deer or a human being using that style and Foryth claims that Grandfather was able to and presumably had done both. Perhaps, just perhaps, our understanding of Forsyth is in error.

 I have to dissagree here Aussie.  I've used the apache style a good bit, in fact it's all I used for the first few months of slinging.  I got to the point where I was getting a lot of power out of it, if the bark flying off the trees was any indication.  I gotta run out the door, I'll post more in an hour or so.

 Anyway, as I was saying.  I like the videos that reuben has done, and I think he has the mechanics of it down pretty well.  As far as power goes though, it is possible to get a lot more out of it.  I start with a wider stance for one thing, and when I twist around I put a lot more body action into it.  I'll add that to the list of videos I need to make, 'cause like you said, it's hard to describe the slinging action using words.

A quick field report on Comanche style slinging... WOW!

The slightly longer version... Its easy to get the front to back windup without hitting yourself. The natural pullback of the arm takes care of this. It feels very safe and leaves the throwing arm in a good position.

The key thing seems to be to throw early, maybe 2 or 3 o'clock on the downswing. Too late and the shot pulls to the left. Get it right and the whip overhead is amazing!
This style has serious power.

I have theory on this, which I will think some more about before I risk presenting it.

I used a 30" with tennis balls and one attempt with a 41" and a golf ball which I then had to dig out of the ground six feet in front of me... ooops!

Get out there and thow some Comanche! :)

Aussie! and you coming from a cricket playing nation ;D

I've tended to view the Apache throw as related to a cricket delivery, as has been mentioned several times by me and others. I started with it, and firmly believe it can be a useful style. I really see no evidence in Forsyth's description that what he saw was a figure eight style. He emphasisted the straight arm, and an apparently much less complex throwing motion than is required by fig-8.

The only thing I find questionable in his description is the degree to which he faces the target. It seems to me that being more side on (closer to a classic cricket delivery) makes much more sense both from the point of view of power and accuracy. That is the main difference between the description and the way I practice the 'Apache' style.

As far as this vexed business of chickens, figure-8 etc. Isn't it about time to recognise that there are variations on the figure-8 which are big enough to make them distinct?

If you like, figure-8 describes a set of styles rather than itself being a style. In taxonomic terms - it's a genus not a species :D.

Even though I think that the Figure-8 style looks really cool with its flourish-y motion, I have not really gotten it working.  Yeah, I've hit myself in the back on slow practice throws.  I do like the way this guy's Comanche style looks, and the results seem to be worth the effort to try it out, so I will, when I have the time.

It looks to me from the video that a major feature of this style is that the thrower is much more forward facing than with the "traditional" Figure-8.  Anyone agree with that?

I just don't know how to manage the transition from the plane of the spin to the plane of the release.  What exactly is the plane of the release?

Hey, are we going to start calling these things "aitsikkos" now?

Also, on one of the placards in the video, the knot I've been calling the "release knot" is referred to as the "trigger knot."  I like that a lot, and I think I'll start using it as a replacement. :)

peacefuljeffrey wrote on Oct 7^th, 2008 at 4:53pm:

Even though I think that the Figure-8 style looks really cool with its flourish-y motion, I have not really gotten it working.  Yeah, I've hit myself in the back on slow practice throws.

Been there, done that. You feel like a right prat when there's a family and two dogs watching you from just up the beach...


Quote:

I do like the way this guy's Comanche style looks, and the results seem to be worth the effort to try it out, so I will, when I have the time.

Make the time! Or, spend more time in the office. Your call.


Quote:

It looks to me from the video that a major feature of this style is that the thrower is much more forward facing than with the "traditional" Figure-8.  Anyone agree with that

Thats not the difference of the Comanche style. The difference is the angle of the windup compared to the direction of the throw. It is easier to be more forward facing using this style but you would lose some throwing power doing so. No biggie.


Quote:

I just don't know how to manage the transition from the plane of the spin to the plane of the release.  What exactly is the plane of the release?

The plane of release is mostly vertical. To get from spin to release you just throw... *** AT THE RIGHT TIME!!!! ***

The timing of the start of the throw is vital to the final trajectory.  Timing the release is just the usual parcel of fun.

Hey Guys! Been a while since I actually wrote something in this forum.. This is quite similar to the comanche (SIMPLE):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj0r3VqWP4w

I really liked this style, nice find Aussie. Was out throwing rocks for about 2-3 hours today, mostly practising this technique. It worked out very good for me, akward at first as usual, but now it feels really natural. I got pretty good accuracy and force with it. Another good thing with it is it's adjustability, one can easily make over-under-sidearm just changing the throwing movement.

Currently I'm using a very short sling, elbow-to-finger length, about 48 cm that is (yeah, I'm short). Until recently I have mostly casted Greek sidearm style with which accuracy is very good, but power is suffering. Now I've decided to only use the Comanche style. I reckon it's good or even better with longer slings.

Best regards
Jonas

It appears to me that the windup is done as a sort of tilted-back halo around the head, like an enlargement of a beanie projected up and rearward from the head (is that clear?).  How does one transition the sling from rotating in this plane to making an overhand release??

Jeffrey,

 I'm not clear on your question.

              Brett

I tried this today with tennis balls and it feels like all of my throws combined.

 Totally confusing...............

                B.T.

BrianGrubbs wrote on Oct 7^th, 2008 at 7:07am:

Aussie wrote on Oct 7th, 2008 at 4:59am: Hi David, However I just can't imagine being able to sling hard enough to kill a deer or a human being using that style and Foryth claims that Grandfather was able to and presumably had done both. Perhaps, just perhaps, our understanding of Forsyth is in error.  I have to dissagree here Aussie.  I've used the apache style a good bit, in fact it's all I used for the first few months of slinging.  I got to the point where I was getting a lot of power out of it, if the bark flying off the trees was any indication.  I gotta run out the door, I'll post more in an hour or so.  Anyway, as I was saying.  I like the videos that reuben has done, and I think he has the mechanics of it down pretty well.  As far as power goes though, it is possible to get a lot more out of it.  I start with a wider stance for one thing, and when I twist around I put a lot more body action into it.  I'll add that to the list of videos I need to make, 'cause like you said, it's hard to describe the slinging action using words.

Greetings Brian,

I was hoping you would comment in this thread, especially after reading of your involvement in both teaching and the native american festival. Let me second your proposal to make a video of yourself doing Apache. May I request it be done with a stone of sufficient size to be a viable hunting projectile (say 2-3 oz.) and at a target a measured distance from your front foot. If the sound of the sling and the stone hitting the target can be heard it will be easy to calculate the average velocity. Anything over 40 m/s would be very good. Perhaps my own lack of success with this style is due to the fact that I have some arthritis in both shoulder and elbow and have never been particularly athletic, rather than to a deficiency in the style itself.

Like Wanderer I have been a wonderer about Apache's apparent similarity to fast bowling in cricket. However cricket bowling action is not a natural throwing action; it is necessitated by rules that state the elbow may not be bent at the time the ball is released. Additionally a bowler is running at full speed as he releases the ball, very different from a no-step Apache throw. BTW I have noticed that when fielding even specialist bowlers will usually return the ball with just a normal throw not a bowling action.

(For all you mystified Americans, cricket is a bat and ball game broadly similar to baseball.)

Regards,

Aussie.

I'm going to agree with Brian here. I'm also starting to get some power out of it myself. Still fairly short range but I dang sure wouldn't want to get by my rocks in that range.

Marc Adkins



BrianGrubbs wrote on Oct 7^th, 2008 at 7:07am:

Aussie wrote on Oct 7th, 2008 at 4:59am: Hi David, However I just can't imagine being able to sling hard enough to kill a deer or a human being using that style and Foryth claims that Grandfather was able to and presumably had done both. Perhaps, just perhaps, our understanding of Forsyth is in error.  I have to dissagree here Aussie.  I've used the apache style a good bit, in fact it's all I used for the first few months of slinging.  I got to the point where I was getting a lot of power out of it, if the bark flying off the trees was any indication.  I gotta run out the door, I'll post more in an hour or so.  Anyway, as I was saying.  I like the videos that reuben has done, and I think he has the mechanics of it down pretty well.  As far as power goes though, it is possible to get a lot more out of it.  I start with a wider stance for one thing, and when I twist around I put a lot more body action into it.  I'll add that to the list of videos I need to make, 'cause like you said, it's hard to describe the slinging action using words.

wrote on Oct 7^th, 2008 at 10:50pm:

Jeffrey,  I'm not clear on your question.               Brett

Well, it just seems like the original rotation of the sling is on a plane like a rotor on a helicopter that is slowing its forward speed; and then the last section of the rotation is sort of overhand.  How does one so rapidly redirect the force of the rotation into that new direction for the release?  It seems like there is too drastic a change in direction, too quickly.

Aussie, There is just so much about his story that is sending off alarm bells. Maybe it's all those years dodging martial arts advertising, ( Ya know the super secrect death moves taught by the last master of ......) You get the gist maybe he is telling the truth........Maybe not. I would love to see more.

We have proof of native american slinging for a lot longer than this century. Oh yeah another area I am haveing probblems with is the type of sling he is using is considered a toy by the tribes that I have some documentation for. ( Alright it's a very limited number but it's amazing consistant). I'll post the titles and other information when I get back to my hard copy references.

Where are you getting Figure 8 outta LKFs article? He's pretty specific about the straight arm over shot.

"very quickly swing your arm and sling up from behind you and over the top in an overhand throw while attempting to keep your arm as straight and long as you can for airspeed. Put your body fully behind it in a fast turning motion similar to a baseball pitcher but without the step. Be aggressive and make all motions as large as you can. It's usually harder to correct a bad habit than to learn it right the first time. You may try a forward step as you throw but I believe you'll find that it slows you down. The body motion requires more twisting than an Atlatl or Tomahawk throw.

The whole action is over from start to stop in less than a second and the arm has swung less than 360 degrees. If your muscles are not used to this motion, start slow and work up to speed over a period of time. Speed and accuracy will only come with daily practice and everyone, male and female is a potential master. "



Now I do agree that Forsyths article is lacking some needed details but you have to remember he was writing almost 40 years after the fact and Grandfather was almost 70 at the time. There is probably a whole lot that happened during that time that father time has erased in his endless march

Marc Adkins



He doesn't call it a sling/slingshot because that's what his Comanche mentor asked him. As he does not seem to make the clear distinction between sling and slingshot that we do here on slinging.org perhaps he insists on stone thrower to avoid confusion.

However what got me particularly excited is that here at last we have a living primary source for Native American slinging, who goes back 20 years earlier than Forsyth. Also I know that Comanche isn't Apache but certainly in the same general part of the world, so perhaps we can at last find out exactly what constitutes Apache style. For some time I have had a suspicion that Forsyth's description is missing detail and that Apache is actually some variation of hanging pouch start Fig.8.[/quote]

winkleried wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 12:52am:

I'm going to agree with Brian here. I'm also starting to get some power out of it myself. Still fairly short range but I dang sure wouldn't want to get by my rocks in that range. Marc Adkins BrianGrubbs wrote on Oct 7th, 2008 at 7:07am: Aussie wrote on Oct 7th, 2008 at 4:59am: Hi David, However I just can't imagine being able to sling hard enough to kill a deer or a human being using that style and Foryth claims that Grandfather was able to and presumably had done both. Perhaps, just perhaps, our understanding of Forsyth is in error.  I have to dissagree here Aussie.  I've used the apache style a good bit, in fact it's all I used for the first few months of slinging.  I got to the point where I was getting a lot of power out of it, if the bark flying off the trees was any indication.  I gotta run out the door, I'll post more in an hour or so.  Anyway, as I was saying.  I like the videos that reuben has done, and I think he has the mechanics of it down pretty well.  As far as power goes though, it is possible to get a lot more out of it.  I start with a wider stance for one thing, and when I twist around I put a lot more body action into it.  I'll add that to the list of videos I need to make, 'cause like you said, it's hard to describe the slinging action using words.

Great! Let me reiterate my request to Brian. Make a video of yourself or at least get an accurate measurement of your stone speed using the recorded sound method over a distance of 10 m or so.

Better still if you can get some independent verification of the Apache, or for that matter, any Native American slinging styles I would LOVE to hear about it. Didn't the Comanche nation originally inhabit the territory of Oklahoma? May be right next door to you.

BTW All you Apache users out there with your hackles raised, "Peace and Goodwill from Down Under!" I am not in any way opposed to Apache. If you are getting good results and/or having fun all the best to you. All I would really like to know is that our understanding of Apache is really what Grandfather was using.

peacefuljeffrey wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 12:59am:

Well, it just seems like the original rotation of the sling is on a plane like a rotor on a helicopter that is slowing its forward speed; and then the last section of the rotation is sort of overhand.  How does one so rapidly redirect the force of the rotation into that new direction for the release?  It seems like there is too drastic a change in direction, too quickly.

The windup is a helix running from front to back. The axis of rotation points approximately towards the target. You are absolutely right there is a rapid change of rotation when the throw happens. This is exactly where the power comes from.

When you throw there is a very strong whipping action you can feel. The stone has to accelerate hard to keep up with your hand because its speed and direction start out being so different from the movement dictated by your hand.

All you have to do is throw, but the caveat is that you have to make that throw at the right time to get the right trajectory.

Watch the guy in the blue tshirt, second and third clip on the compilation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7rNRlXv2Ms His last throw is different and does not apply to this example.

Its exactly the same throw. He uses multiple windup spins behind the body, Comanche uses a single helical windup starting in front and ending behind. The throw happens with the pouch in the same place, about 3 o'clock. The final trajectory ends up 90 degrees away from the plane of rotation.

Jonas.N wrote on Oct 7^th, 2008 at 7:25pm:

Hey Guys! Been a while since I actually wrote something in this forum.. This is quite similar to the comanche (SIMPLE): I really liked this style, nice find Aussie. Was out throwing rocks for about 2-3 hours today, mostly practising this technique. It worked out very good for me, akward at first as usual, but now it feels really natural. I got pretty good accuracy and force with it. Another good thing with it is it's adjustability, one can easily make over-under-sidearm just changing the throwing movement. Currently I'm using a very short sling, elbow-to-finger length, about 48 cm that is (yeah, I'm short). Until recently I have mostly casted Greek sidearm style with which accuracy is very good, but power is suffering. Now I've decided to only use the Comanche style. I reckon it's good or even better with longer slings. Best regards Jonas

Well spotted! What Hondero is doing with the 'Simple' style is basically the Comanche using a sidearm throw.

Yesterday I tried a couple of gentle sidearm throws without releasing the sling just to get a feel for it and see if it would work. I found that on the release arc I was getting some up and down oscillations as the pouch went through the release point. I gave up and stuck to the overhand. Advancing the timing of the throw would probably help here. If the pouch never gets under the plane of release then there wont be any oscillation.

I will make a monkey fist around a golf ball and try that again. It will be a useful practice technique for me when I dont have somewhere I can actually throw, which is almost all the time!

Aussieslinger

There is no mention that grandfather was saying that the "Apache Style"Was used to kill deer.

"To the best of his knowledge, his Mescalaro tribe had been using slings for centuries for hunting or combat and could kill a deer or warrior with equal ease"

Using slings does not mean that they were only using the "Apache Style" In thier efforts .

Although I can see a stone cast in this manner (Apache Style) killing a human. I am basing this claim strictly on the state of late 19th century early 20th century medicine. I never sid it would instantly kill just that it would eventually kill.  

Again we have no evidence that the native american slingers used the "Figure-8".In a similar vein we have no evidence either that they didn't use it. I think you are going in the right direction on your belief that figure-8 is an American Style based on the evidence out there of family members teaching it to thier young.

Unfortunately unless we can document with no ( Or Almost no) uncertainity that this training took place before before 5/1/ 1985 then we have no way of knowing for sure if the technique in question was influenced by Lynn Ballards Article in the Mother Earth News. This Article as Far as I know is the earliest one in which the Figure 8 is described. Korfmann in his seminal 1973 article ( for example) only illustrated the underhand throw

After seeing both videos. I would agree that his primary intrest is in the Atlatl. I am not buying the "combined-arms concept" of slingers protecting spearmen during a large animal hunt. My understanding is that the atlatl has a greater range than he is showing in his little demonstration os slinging against a rock face.

I have got to get to bed, we will continue this later

Marc Adkins


Aussie wrote on Oct 7^th, 2008 at 4:59am:

Hi David, . However I just can't imagine being able to sling hard enough to kill a deer or a human being using that style and Foryth claims that Grandfather was able to and presumably had done both. Perhaps, just perhaps, our understanding of Forsyth is in error. Whatever the case this gentleman is a living treasure and I am just itching to hear all he has to say on the subject, though I think his primary interest is the atlatl. As far a naming rights for the style, I certainly think that honour should go to him. Regards, Aussie

I left work at about 02:00 Wednesday, and when I got to my street, I drove past my house to the end of the street where it meets the Intracoastal Waterway.  I stood on the sidewalk along the seawall and must've shot about 30 or so golf balls into the drink.  (Eeeew, the idea of drinking that water...  :-/ )

I was attempting the "Comanche" style as described here lately, and I think I was doing it. Actually, I have to say that I was pretty damn successful at it.  Decent accuracy (at this point, for me, that means getting them to go forward, within about 20 degrees of target, I guess) and decent distance (no way to measure it, but estimated at approaching 100 yards at times.

I'll be practicing this technique with my ... um ... "aitsikko."

winkleried wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 1:11am:

Oh yeah another area I am haveing probblems with is the type of sling he is using is considered a toy by the tribes that I have some documentation for. ( Alright it's a very limited number but it's amazing consistant). I'll post the titles and other information when I get back to my hard copy references.

What is wrong with his sling? Why consider it a toy?

Come to think about it this style is like the "lazy" version of a "standard" fig.8 (as shown on wiki). IMO even improved since the "standard" takes more arm-movement. With the comanche the single revolution comes naturally while in fig.8 it's produced mechanically with a seperate, twirling, or at least less consisistent motion.

Peacefuljeffrey:

Quote:

I was attempting the "Comanche" style as described here lately, and I think I was doing it. Actually, I have to say that I was pretty darn successful at it.  Decent accuracy (at this point, for me, that means getting them to go forward, within about 20 degrees of target, I guess) and decent distance (no way to measure it, but estimated at approaching 100 yards at times.

Good to see others find it useful as well :-) What length sling did you use?

David:

Quote:

Yesterday I tried a couple of gentle sidearm throws without releasing the sling just to get a feel for it and see if it would work. I found that on the release arc I was getting some up and down oscillations as the pouch went through the release point. I gave up and stuck to the overhand. Advancing the timing of the throw would probably help here. If the pouch never gets under the plane of release then there wont be any oscillation.

Timing really is of the essence in this throw. To make a side-arm throw with this helix-like technique I found it useful to raise up and hold the throwing hand higher than normally in the beginning of the throw. Just realised that's just what you said. That evens out the oscillations pretty nicely though. :P
Another thing I found concerning oscillations is the importance of starting the throw slowly, then at the right moment throw, thus creating a good whip. The circle one makes behind ones back should be much smaller than in "standard" fig.8. In the video it almost looks like he throws the pouch straight down behind his back, then just rips it forward with no circle at all. This small circle I think is the key and power to and of the technique.

Best regards
Jonas

It's a paracord sling approximately 30" from loop to cradle (5.5 ft. overall length including cradle).

It's about the most ideal length for me in terms of comfort in use, at this point.

I was wondering what is the advantage of a figure 8 style over other styles.
Figure 8 looks good, but is it better than a simple greek release?

These judgements are always subjective but in my opinion the Fig.8 is better in several ways. It allows a longer sling and has more initial windup, both of which mean a higher release velocity. On the negative side it requires a little more space so if slinging near trees, bushes etc. there is a greater likelihood of snagging. In a hunting scenario there is also a slightly longer gap between commencing the throw and the release so more chance of spooking game. (This is pretty much only a theoretical disadvantage of course.)

Most people seem to have a bit of trouble learning it but find it very natural after the initial period, self definitely included. At first I found accuracy down compared with Greek style but now am better with Fig.8 and rarely use anything else.

At times recently when I tried Figure-8, I found that the issue of not hitting myself in the back caused me to have to assume an odd posture that failed to facilitate the development of any significant power.  Strangely, the Comanche, which is sort of like the Figure-8, I have no problem with.

I guess that the Figure-8 has the advantage of adding most of a circle to the acceleration of the throw, although in my own experience it really doesn't seem to matter until the last final whip of acceleration, which is why other styles achieve plenty of power.  Of course, I must avow that I am a newbie, and don't have extensive experience with any of these styles.

I like the Greek style.  I can use it successfully.  But I think I found that when I tried out Comanche last night, the overhand release aided my lateral accuracy.

Rockman wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 11:53pm:

I was wondering what is the advantage of a figure 8 style over other styles. Figure 8 looks good, but is it better than a simple greek release?

Greek style, side-arm, is in my experience easy to obtain accuracy with. The fig.8 sort of styles, like the comanche, are a bit harder getting accurate with, yet the power is greater than with the greek style. Also the fig.8 styles allow one to move the arm during the throw more freely and further back than the Greek. This is just my experience, and I use quite short slings. Don't know if that matters.

Jeffrey: Thanks, I'll have to try it with a longer sling later as well.

Best regards
Jonas

Million Dollar Question, I am reporting second hand what the authors of the articles were reporting what the Tribes were telling them.

I was going to try and get a few more articles, And then post the Question to the Project Goliath Section and see if us history Geeks could come up with an answer. but I lost access to JSTOR.

May still do it with the extremely few articles I have. Now I will admit the answer was extremly similar from eastern Tribes all the way up to the Inuit tribe.

Also all were describing the leather thong and pouch sling.

Marc Adkins
[/quote]

What is wrong with his sling? Why consider it a toy?[/quote]

winkleried wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 5:44pm:

Million Dollar Question, I am reporting second hand what the authors of the articles were reporting what the Tribes were telling them. I was going to try and get a few more articles, And then post the Question to the Project Goliath Section and see if us history Geeks could come up with an answer. but I lost access to JSTOR. May still do it with the extremely few articles I have. Now I will admit the answer was extremly similar from eastern Tribes all the way up to the Inuit tribe. Also all were describing the leather thong and pouch sling. Marc Adkins Quote: What is wrong with his sling? Why consider it a toy?

And the answer was.....?

I don't Know, which was why I was going to send it to the Project Goliath crew and see if we could put our collective heads to gather to figure it out.

Marc Adkins



David Morningstar wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 7:06pm:

And the answer was.....?

David Morningstar wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 7:06pm:

And the answer was.....?

Available for the low, low price of only $39.95 plus shipping and handling!!   ;D

No video camera at this time, Sorry. Looks like Brian is going to have to carry the weight for us on this one.
No white flag necessary Aussie, this is just a standard debate.

You did make a good point in that LKF article is lacking certain details. Like most slinging styles they are extremely undocumented until the later quarter of the last century. Then this forum came out and things started snowballing.

One just has to look in some pretty strange place to find the various pieces of the puzzle and then try fitting them togather.

Yes I am looking for documentation for Native American Slinging Styles, to either confirm or deny the Apache and now the "Commanche"

Dang didn't realise they were concentrated Around the Lawton Oklahoma area. That area is more famous for the apache. But then again it's also the area around Ft. Sill ( Which is still an active Military Base) so that kinnda makes sense ( Keep your enemies close sort of thing)

I will try and post my references on the Goliath Section maybe by sunday...............

Marc Adkins

[quote author=aussieslinger link=1223285825/15#24 date=1223443561
Great! Let me reiterate my request to Brian. Make a video of yourself or at least get an accurate measurement of your stone speed using the recorded sound method over a distance of 10 m or so.

Better still if you can get some independent verification of the Apache, or for that matter, any Native American slinging styles I would LOVE to hear about it. Didn't the Comanche nation originally inhabit the territory of Oklahoma? May be right next door to you.

BTW All you Apache users out there with your hackles raised, "Peace and Goodwill from Down Under!" I am not in any way opposed to Apache. If you are getting good results and/or having fun all the best to you. All I would really like to know is that our understanding of Apache is really what Grandfather was using.[/quote]

 I should have some time tomorrow to shoot some video.  I'll get it up as soon as possible.  As far as estimating speed goes... I'll post the video up and you guys can work that out ;)  

Aussie wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 1:26am:

BTW All you Apache users out there with your hackles raised, "Peace and Goodwill from Down Under!" I am not in any way opposed to Apache. If you are getting good results and/or having fun all the best to you. All I would really like to know is that our understanding of Apache is really what Grandfather was using.

Don't worry Aussi, I didn't take any offence either. I too want to know if our understanding of the Apache throw matches what Grandfather used. I also look forward to Brian and/or Marc making videos of their throws (remember that most digital cameras today can record videos (but please put in on a tripod or equivalent structure)). I would like to get some more Apache examples before finally finishing an article about it.

Back to the topic at hand, I still have not been able to figure out the exact motion of the Comanche technique. I just got a copy of the video from youtube (google for "all in one bookmarklet" for a script to do this) in flash video format. The video players I have don't allow for playing frame by frame, but hopefully I can convert the file format tomorrow and get it into the video editing software I am using, where I will have some hope to see what he is doing.

Has anybody found any way to contact the author to see if he would answer questions? Also it would be nice to get permission to put up a slow motion video of his throw if I can create one.

I have been looking at the video some more and I will have to change my throw as a result. The throw is actually a kind of diagonal between overarm and sidearm and the path of the pouch is high but not overhead. My own throw so far has been overarm with a very overhead trajectory.

Of course, it might also be that he has had to modify his style over the years to compensate for his increasing seniority. If we could contact him somehow and get more information that would be awesome!

One of our members has written to the gentleman and had a favourable response. Of course he posted his video on YouTube which is a public forum and anyone is free to comment on his material or contact him as they choose however in the interests of propriety it may be preferable if we don't all inundate the man and post all comments/questions on this forum.

Great!

Can he tell us all the steps of the Comanche throw, and the reasoning behind them, exactly as they were given to him 60 years ago?

I certainly hope so. Stay tuned.

Currently having lunch on Pensarn beach. My Comanche throw came together once I stopped thinking about it. It is a wide diagonal throw and the sling ends up wrapped around my left wrist. I couldnt tell you when it starts, I was just going with the flow.
I really like this style :-)

David Morningstar wrote on Oct 12^th, 2008 at 11:29am:

Currently having lunch on Pensarn beach. My Comanche throw came together once I stopped thinking about it. It is a wide diagonal throw and the sling ends up wrapped around my left wrist. I couldnt tell you when it starts, I was just going with the flow. I really like this style :-)

Yes, this is actually what I realized yesterday. What I called overhand is more like diagonal, not as much as 45 degrees but still.. Side-arm is more like a tilted diagonal and underhand is underhand-diagonal :P

I also did a lot of slinging against rock targets with the Apache style. That style has lots of speed and power even though it doesnt feel like it when you do it. It is every bit as quick to the target and every bit as noisy and splintery as any other style.

I found I was leaning a lot to the left as well as twisting the body. I also found that you dont need to bunch up a lot of energy in your body before the throw and then explode into action. You can stand completely relaxed and start the throw in a swift but smooth upward swing. Trust the sling to do its job and it will deliver the goods in the last moment when it swooshes over the top.

I have every confidence that the Apache style is the real thing.

I have practised Fig-8 style a couple times and now my throws are getting more relaxed. An hour ago I filmed a small clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8orcxkmtRnc
By the way, is this style Fig-8? :-/

Yes, thats a good figure-8.

Currently going through 6-7 three ring binders on Slings looking for my native american stuff. Soon as I get it sorted out I will post a link here.

Marc Adkins



[quote author=winkleried link=1223285825/30#40 date=1223659218]
I will try and post my references on the Goliath Section maybe by sunday...............

Marc Adkins

[

Quote:

Its a figure-8 turned around 90 degrees. The rotation is in front then behind and the throw is out of the plane of rotation. Since the historical provenance is about as good as it gets, and it is distinctly different from its closest similar style, I propose we adopt this as the Comanche style. I dont want to see this just chucked into the big figure-8 melting pot, especially since the figure-8 has no particular historical or ethnographic link.

It's just fig 8. I use fig 8 in a number of different ways depending on what the particular aim of that throw is. The fact that the guy in the video uses a slightly different fig 8 to you - means nothing I'm afraid, it's just his fig 8.
And the point I've made a few times is that fig8 is undoubtably as old as the sling. Slings have been around thousands of years. So have accomplished slingers. There are approximately 5 or six definite throwing styles to assume that the ancent slingers were any less accomplished than more modern slingers is just nonsense. Logically there is no reason why all cultures who used slings would not have had knowlege of all the different styles.
To allocate a particular style a name based on just one culture's usage of it is confusing and patronising to other cultures.

Sure calling it commanche gives it a romantic name, but in the true nomenclature argument that surrounds all sling styles - it's just going to confuse even more people.
You can call it deidre or florence if you like - I'll call it fig 8 ;-)

What, btw, is Hondero's "Simple" technique called? (In the youtube video of rustic styles).
Would you call that a fig 8 as well C_A?  ;)

As I see it the gentleman in the opening video is rushing the cast slightly. The arm is moving forward while the pouch is still moving around at the rear. Look closely, as he makes the “snap”, the sling drops down and out of his line of thrust and then back up. This is the result of the necessary drastic change of plain and a momentary decrease in tension with a resulting loss of efficiency.  Of course this is a demonstration by a man well past his prime.

tom

Thomas wrote on Oct 15^th, 2008 at 11:05am:

As I see it the gentleman in the opening video is rushing the cast slightly. The arm is moving forward while the pouch is still moving around at the rear. Look closely, as he makes the “snap”, the sling drops down and out of his line of thrust and then back up. This is the result of the necessary drastic change of plain and a momentary decrease in tension with a resulting loss of efficiency.  Of course this is a demonstration by a man well past his prime. tom

Throwing out of the plane of rotation generates big power. The sling pouch has further to travel during the duration of the throw since it is changing direction in three dimensions.

The second throw in the compilation shows this in action. The sling swings down below the 'line of thrust' then back up during the throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7rNRlXv2Ms

David

Using the overhand figure 8 as an example, the perceived power comes from the pouch revolving faster than anticipated. It has more speed than a normal throw with an equivalent length sling and that power comes from a longer acceleration stroke, not the incidental change of plain which the slinger must overcome. The sling length is limited by the figure 8 style but that length is enough. Don’t get me wrong, this style is VERY good.

So why would more of a sidearm version of the “f8” contribute to efficiency? Rapidly twitch a spinning gyroscope around and it slows down much sooner.

tom                          

The change of plane does seem to slow things..

yeah but changing plane for the final release phase does not change the nature of the throw itself.
Sorry. I tend to use different release planes depending on what I intend to do with the throw. It doesn't make it a completely different style.


Quote:

What, btw, is Hondero's "Simple" technique called? (In the youtube video of rustic styles). Would you call that a fig 8 as well C_A?  Wink

No idea without a link to the video in question I have no idea to what you're referring :-)
I'm not one of those who lump everything into the fig8 camp. But when it clearly is fig 8 then I'll call it fig 8 - :-)

Can we say that any cast initiated by the opposite hand releasing the elevated pouch down front and to the rear followed by a single preliminary twirl is a figure 8 style?

Dropping the pouch such that it arrives to the rear in an arc is one method of starting the cast. When the cast is done with the bent arm motion which most throwers use, it cries for an extra turn done in some fashion.

A trebuchet has a launching trough to start the ammo from. The arm of a treb  remains straight with no bending, hence no extra windup. The exception to this is the “whipper treb” wherein both arm and pouch rotate further but still without extra complete turns.

Just because a sidearm follow through was used doesn’t mean the cast was not a “figure 8” style even though it was not efficiently done as with overhand.There are techniques which utilize an extra preliminary turn to advantage and others which border on “towel snapping". 

tom

Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 16^th, 2008 at 7:54am:

No idea without a link to the video in question I have no idea to what you're referring :-)

Oh sorry. Here goes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj0r3VqWP4w

Yeah, the comanche is obviously a fig 8 variant. this one is quite like it..

A couple of videos of me trying the Comanche style. The quality is pretty hopeless. I have some higher resolution videos with my nice white braided sling that shows up perfectly, but these are on a different camera that isnt talking to the PC any more. A card reader looks like the only solution so it will be a few days before I can get those up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSbbpwgGoqY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsvtzYfuUEU

[EDIT] I managed to get the other videos but they werent hi-res, however the framerate is decent and the white sling shows up well. This is a sequence of several throws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNDLIhgezvo

I have a couple of other clips up as well, but I need more quality before I can get serious about this video lark  :-/

Thanks for the videos, David Morningstar.  I think they give a good illustration of the Comanche style.

I have used both Comanche style and fig 8 a lot the last days, and feel that they are just small variables of the basically same cast.  
But it t is good they have different names, so we all know which and what we are talking about( but perhaps somebody here should find a native tribe ( on youtube?) who used the "old" fig 8, so we can give it more stylish name :D)
timann

Even if "Comanche" style is just a variation on Figure-8, I have to give it credit for getting me to try something like Figure-8 again.  See, when I first tried Figure-8 I failed at it for the most part because I either had to get into a funky uncomfortable contortion to make it work, or I hit myself in the back--one or the other.

But I tried "Comanche" style and made a success out of it, and I like it a bit more than the Greek and Byzantine that I had been doing well with, because of the way Comanche comes over the top.  My lateral accuracy is better this way.

So independent style or not, I give it credit for helping my slinging.

I've been watching this video that Willeke shot,and it does seem more like the old mans mammoth hunting shot.What do you think CA?

http://knopen.ismijnhobby.nl/diverse/MVI_5741.AVI

Respectfully said,the throw does have a different rotation than most compound overhand shots.

I think that CA will say that it looks rather familiar :)  It is well within the fig8 style imo.
timann

wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 9:18am:

I've been watching this video that Willeke shot,and it does seem more like the old mans mammoth hunting shot.What do you think CA? http://knopen.ismijnhobby.nl/diverse/MVI_5741.AVI

Thats almost exactly it. The throwing hand starts a little higher and the throwing arc could be a touch more horizontal but those are minor quibbles.

Who is that in the video? Is it C_A himself?

It is CA.I know he was throwing casually,as his target was somewhere in Willeke's vicinity,and his motions may have been affected by his awareness of the female downrange,I just think that it's similar to the old mans(and yours,David)in the initial rotation.

I found this GEM of a post with the search function...

   Seeing some of this footage and discussion got me thinking about how much sling length with a figure-8 style is going to affect elbow position and the plane of rotation.

   I just thought I'd bump it to the top of the forum and suggest any members learning the Fig-8 experiment with lengths different than what you have used with other styles if you are having difficulty getting a good feel with it.

Awesome thread! i bet there are more out there like this!!!
I wish Aussie was still here though :( Cause he would certianly have lots to add.