Hello to all!

Up to where, the escitas probably combined both recusos in the battle, the sling and the horse. Does someone know if in the primitive(original) italia slingers existed astride?

A greeting!!!
;)

I am not sure,will look into it. Although I think it could be somewhat difficult using a sling from a horse,I think it is quite possible,after all boleadora´s (or bola) were often used from horseback and it basically the same principle.

There is a passage from Hannibal that mentions horsemen demonstrating thier slinging from the saddle.  

lol but the saddle of an elephant is a helluva lot more stable than a horse ;-)

Slinging from a horse is surely possible, but I wonder in what circumstances one would. I'm not a great horseman, but my impression is that any kind of action involving much of the body would really confuse the horse (shifting balance etc.) and you'd probably end up being thrown off if the horse was moving.

wanderer wrote on Jul 12^th, 2007 at 2:48pm:

my impression is that any kind of action involving much of the body would really confuse the horse (shifting balance etc.) and you'd probably end up being thrown off if the horse was moving.

The trick is to make the horse sling with you, so that it jumps forth the moment you throw and adds extra power. ;-)
You would either need a technique that doesn't change your balance (hard) or just play a dragoon: dismount before participating in the battle.
There is a video of someone slinging from a bike using an underhand throw.

I consider myself a relatively experienced rider and would never consider actually trying it..The thought of what would happen if a shot went astray and hit my horse is somewhat unnerving..
Have learned to fire my bow from a horse allthough I am about 4feet from the target,not exactly a mongol warrior ;D After trying it for a few times my respect for  the mongols(and other cultures who used horse archers) went through the roof!!

smgjerald wrote on Jul 12^th, 2007 at 7:54pm:

The thought of what would happen if a shot went astray and hit my horse is somewhat unnerving..

Dead horse or dead human?

The dragoon technique wouldn't be more dangerous than slinging while other humans are near. I still wouldn't try it.
Slinging from horseback however...I would be afraid of hitting the horse during the wind-up with the stone or whipping the horse with the released sling. I definitely wouldn't try that.

dead human without a doubt..scaring a horse is not a good idea,especially not if you are sitting on it. Went airborne one time when I learned how to ride, would prefer to avoid doing it again :o
would never sling around another human or an animal if it was a possibility I could hit them,after seeing how powerful a slung stone actually is, it is just to dangerous..

smgjerald wrote on Jul 12^th, 2007 at 7:54pm:

I consider myself a relatively experienced rider and would never consider actually trying it..The thought of what would happen if a shot went astray and hit my horse is somewhat unnerving.. Have learned to fire my bow from a horse allthough I am about 4feet from the target,not exactly a mongol warrior ;D After trying it for a few times my respect for  the mongols(and other cultures who used horse archers) went through the roof!!

They did have special bows and a unique draw (thumb release).  This would have made it easier.

Chris

Sandbumoen wrote on Jul 13^th, 2007 at 11:49am:

They did have special bows and a unique draw (thumb release).  This would have made it easier.

And they only fired while all hooves were in the air to avoid shocks that might offset the aim. This timing alone can be quite difficult.

I actually prefer thumb release(if you mean index/thumb) for some reason,have not affected my archery but just like to release the arrow that way,feel I have more control that way. I´m probably just weird ;D want to try making a mongol bow in the near future,just for fun 8-)

I think its entirely possible that slinging from horseback was once a fighting skill. Especially if the horse you were on was a combat-trained war horse. They wouldn't stop for anything, and if you can do it with a bow, why not a sling?
Nevertheless, I wouldn't recommend trying it on some trail-riding pony. Unless, of course, you have a death wish.  :-/

If you look at the pictures in the historic section you will see a vase with pictures of mounted slingers, Scythians I believe.

well bear in mind that you are much higher off the ground that a man standing so a good underarm throw would not only be possible but very effective. I would say that anyone who can play polo - would make an effective horse slinger as the motions and hammer are very similiar to a loaded sling used underarm stylee :-)

You don; want to be swinging it round tour head - but then you don't need to :-)

With skill and patience it should be possible to get a horse used to slinging from its back. But in ancient times horses where very expensive and slingers where very poor. At least in the Roman army during republican times it seems very unlikely that a slinger ranking in the fifth class would be able t aford or allowed to use a horse, which was the "weapon" of the "knights". But this doesn't exclude such combination of weapons for other armies or times.

funda iucunda

actually any trained quarter horse or polo pony would be ideal for slinging as they are used to hands free control and to the riders swinging mallets and lariats around. The horse is the least of your worries :-)

But yeah your traditional slingers wouldn't have had them.  

http://www.slinging.org/galleryimages/history/Scythians_475.jpg


from our historical gallery ;)

why are they all riding antelopes ? (or possibly very large goats - check out the beards and bollocks)
Kind of looks like a mythological host - otherwise they would probably have been ridng horses :-)

Possibly not an actual depiction of an actual riding slinging squad.

In that case, that´s some badass goats,they are the size of a grown man ;D

could be dwarfs or pygmies.
But those definitely are not horses.
:-)

Yeah,well if I had a group of naked dwarfs or pygmies coming at me on goats I would run wether they had slings or not.. ;D

Maybe they put masks with horns on the horses to make them look more scary?

But I guess some artist just wanted to picture exotic fighters. If in the future someone finds a fantasy comic of our time it will not tell him much about us, will it?

Anybody want to try slinging while riding bareback naked without sturrups?? ;D ;D

The Greeks usually sat on horse back without any underwear. Xenophon recommended a special way to get upon the horse without showing "anything". Riding without saddle is no problem, but had disadvantages during the battle.

As we surely know from the Patagonian indians and Gauchos it was common to throw the bola from horse back. The bola was efficient on a distance of about 60 meters and was used for catching horses and cattle, i.e. rapidly moving targets. The practical difference to slinging from horse back is a question of precisition.

In Tren, Albania exists a picture carved in a rock that shows a slinger hunting on a horse back. It dates from iron age but I have no exact information. The foto is a copy in Vutiropulos, Fernwaffen in Südosteuropa, Leidorf 1991. Unfortunately the copy isn't very good.

So I conclude that slinging from horse back is possible and was done. But I assume that it was used rather while hunting than in the battle because of the social implications of horse (wealthy) and sling (poor).

funda iucunda

funda_iucunda wrote on Jul 28^th, 2007 at 12:53pm:

The Greeks usually sat on horse back without any underwear. Xenophon recommended a special way to get upon the horse without showing "anything". Riding without saddle is no problem, but had disadvantages during the battle.

Did they chose this fashion just for civilian riding or also during battle despite the disadvantages? Do you know sources for it? (I just gave a quick look to Xenophon's "On Horsemanship" on the internet, but couldn't find the part, just something about not hitting the horse with the leg when mounting).


Quote:

So I conclude that slinging from horse back is possible and was done. But I assume that it was used rather while hunting than in the battle because of the social implications of horse (wealthy) and sling (poor).

I often have to remember myself that most of those people were probably hundreds of times better with the sling than I am currently. It might be dangerous for me, but for other people slinging was probably a very natural and controlled movement.

Lol,just tried slinging from a mechanical steer(lowest setting)and..well,I now have a fist sized bruise on my right shin :-/

when I finally managed to follow the motions of the apparatus I actually managed to sling two stones(didn´t have a specific target,just wanted to see if I could sling)
my conclusions:
overhand is extremely difficult,and so is the underhand throw.
Got most success when I angled the sling from a helicopter throw.(something between underhand/helicopter)

If anyone of you want to try this use tennis balls.seriously.a sling loaded with a stone at full momentum hitting your shin is unbelievably painful.
I actually thought my leg was broken,but fortunately it was just my pride that got shattered ;)

smgjerald,

Very interesting experiment! I assume that it is even harder than slinging from a trained horse, because these mechanical steers are made just for making you fall down. So you can be proud to have slung successfully from that steer. 8-)
Doing the helicopter throw is like a cowboy throws a lasso. It's a motion one can do without hitting the horse or himself.

funda iucunda

Well,the steer wasn´t exactly at full speed..It was all a matter of following the steers movement,but seriously, to be accurate from the thing would require a serious amount of training :D
I can´t actually explain how much it hurt when the loaded sling hit my shin,I was in the barn and my wife was in the house watching my name is earl,and she heard my scream loud and clear :-[ When I cursing limped back inside,she simply laughed and said I screamed like a little girl >:(

A friend of mine own a bar and purchased a steer to get a new attraction.he stored it in my barn and I was allowed to have a little fun with it ;)

Sling from horse back ... why not ... I've used lariat, stock whips, sorting staff, and hand gun from horse back. ... just a matter of getting the horse used to your foolish activities..... don't currently have a horse to work with ... don't plan on getting one.  I agree with smgjerald horizotal overhead is the way to go.when mounted.

Quote:

I've used lariat, stock whips, sorting staff, and hand gun from horse back

darn you need a ten gallon hat not a tie :-)

I love the idea of trying to sling from a bucking bull. Had you recently been watching jackass ?
mad, totally mad - but I can see where you'd have to give it  a go lol

actually no, ages since I saw jackass ;D

I had alot of fun with the bull,then I went inside and went online and saw the slinger on horseback thread and the cogwheels in my head started turning :)

Had the bull on the lowest setting,setting it to max and attempting to sling would be  
suicidal without a crash helmet :D

By the way I now demand we call Steven "Tex" from now on lol ;)

Curious Aardvark wrote on Jul 30^th, 2007 at 8:51am:

darn you need a ten gallon hat not a tie :-)

Tried a 10 Gallon but it kept falling down to my shoulders  ;D

Way Back in the day .... I was a farmer not a cowboy . Perfured headgear was a gimmie cap (baseball cap) 8-)

Mordechaj wrote on Jul 19^th, 2007 at 12:35pm:

http://www.slinging.org/galleryimages/history/Scythians_475.jpg from our historical gallery ;)

Those could be a large antelope.

Saddle Mounts down through the years.
Elephant, Camel, Horse, Mule, Donkey, Ass, Zebra, Elk, Llama , Oxen, Yak ...
and many more I'm sure. Those are just the top contenders.

smgjerald wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2007 at 3:39pm:

Yeah,well if I had a group of naked dwarfs or pygmies coming at me on goats I would run wether they had slings or not.. ;D

 I think if I saw that coming toward me, I would stop taking whatever I was on.
 However, the idea of fantasy and strangeness is nothing new. You would portray far flung cultures as strange and exotic, even if they weren't.

Doesn´t necessarily mean it is fantasy,your head works in a strange way after a fight(one tank turns to many,you belive a hundred men is 1000 etc.) they may actually have depicted what was described to them.
If this was something from a real event the fighter may actually have thought this was what they were up against.

Yeah,I am completely ranting now,but just thought about my time in the force when I was so exhausted I was sure the snowcovered woods hid divisions of enemies. Also thought a snowcovered tree was Donkey Kong,but well,5 days of continual marching and 2 hours sleep can really mess with your head ;)

Completely off topic,but hurrah,I am a full member now:D

The picture title says that is a picture of scythians.

according to wikipedia this is a picture of a scythian
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Behistun.Inscript.Skunkha.jpg/170px-Behistun.Inscript.Skunkha.jpg

is it just me or is that not the classic europaen depiction of a gnome ?

Also says that scythians is a name applied to lots of different tribes. Could well be one of them ode around on antelopes.
Hell if billy goat riding gnomes with slings came at me - I'd definitely run.

Don't worry, that guy looks rather like a smerf tied with a sling.

Dravonk,

today I read this topic again and realized that I missed to answer your question of July 28:

"Did they chose this fashion just for civilian riding or also during battle despite the disadvantages? Do you know sources for it? (I just gave a quick look to Xenophon's "On Horsemanship" on the internet, but couldn't find the part, just something about not hitting the horse with the leg when mounting). "

It is not known wether the Greeks used underwear during battle. But as far as one can conclude from roman times they used saddles which supported hold. This is important because without saddle it is difficult to get back to the (crucial) point of gravity during the heat of the fight. Though there are many pictures of Greek horse riding it is not sure that the ancient pictures show the realistic equipment. Often artistic conventions ruled the painting and demanded a idealistic depiction of what looked very different in real live. I have no sources about classical Greek times. But Marcus Junkelmann published a very good book about the roman horsemanship (Die Reiter Roms, Bd. I-III, Verlag von Zabern). He checked the current theories about ancient horsemanship by using replicas of archeological findings with recent horses, broken bones included.

There is a misunderstanding. I didn't write that the Greeks got on a horse back without touching it with the leg. Xenophon recommended that one should first support one self with long arms up on the horse back and than get the right leg to the right side of the horse without resting with it on the back. "Mounting this way one wouldn't look awfully from the back". This remark makes sense if underwear is not common.

funda

After Reading some of the posts in this thread I ahve to agree with Steven here. I never graduated to using a lariat on horseback, 'cause I never could master the horizontal throw my male realitives used and being the racists they were they decided that my vertical "south of the Border" style wasn't right either so no horseback lariat for little marc.

the horse can be trained to work witht he rider either slinging or using the lariat.Although if I ever get back in the saddle again I'll give my old vertical release a try and hopefully not spook my horse too much, too many scars from that :)

Marc Adkins


Steven wrote on Jul 29^th, 2007 at 10:22am:

Sling from horse back ... why not ... I've used lariat, stock whips, sorting staff, and hand gun from horse back. ... just a matter of getting the horse used to your foolish activities..... don't currently have a horse to work with ... don't plan on getting one.  I agree with smgjerald horizotal overhead is the way to go.when mounted.

Probably not the best test for a mounted slinger. Mechanical bulls are designed to mimic the bull bucking not walking or running. If my horse started doing those types of manuevers slinging would be the last thing on my mind. First thing would try and get the horse under control.

Marc Adkins


smgjerald wrote on Jul 28^th, 2007 at 10:28pm:

Lol,just tried slinging from a mechanical steer(lowest setting)and..well,I now have a fist sized bruise on my right shin :-/ when I finally managed to follow the motions of the apparatus I actually managed to sling two stones(didn´t have a specific target,just wanted to see if I could sling) my conclusions: overhand is extremely difficult,and so is the underhand throw. Got most success when I angled the sling from a helicopter throw.(something between underhand/helicopter) If anyone of you want to try this use tennis balls.seriously.a sling loaded with a stone at full momentum hitting your shin is unbelievably painful. I actually thought my leg was broken,but fortunately it was just my pride that got shattered ;)

Ranching Family here, and when we weren't riding those caps were our preferred headgear as well.

Marc Adkins


Steven wrote on Jul 30^th, 2007 at 12:17pm:

Curious Aardvark wrote on Jul 30th, 2007 at 8:51am: darn you need a ten gallon hat not a tie :-) Tried a 10 Gallon but it kept falling down to my shoulders  ;D Way Back in the day .... I was a farmer not a cowboy . Perfured headgear was a gimmie cap (baseball cap) 8-)

When was the stirrup invented?  That was the real key to stability unless you happen to be a Steppes horseman or American Indian?

Trebuchet

:)




funda_iucunda wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2007 at 4:48pm:

Dravonk, today I read this topic again and realized that I missed to answer your question of July 28: "Did they chose this fashion just for civilian riding or also during battle despite the disadvantages? Do you know sources for it? (I just gave a quick look to Xenophon's "On Horsemanship" on the internet, but couldn't find the part, just something about not hitting the horse with the leg when mounting). " It is not known wether the Greeks used underwear during battle. But as far as one can conclude from roman times they used saddles which supported hold. This is important because without saddle it is difficult to get back to the (crucial) point of gravity during the heat of the fight. Though there are many pictures of Greek horse riding it is not sure that the ancient pictures show the realistic equipment. Often artistic conventions ruled the painting and demanded a idealistic depiction of what looked very different in real live. I have no sources about classical Greek times. But Marcus Junkelmann published a very good book about the roman horsemanship (Die Reiter Roms, Bd. I-III, Verlag von Zabern). He checked the current theories about ancient horsemanship by using replicas of archeological findings with recent horses, broken bones included. There is a misunderstanding. I didn't write that the Greeks got on a horse back without touching it with the leg. Xenophon recommended that one should first support one self with long arms up on the horse back and than get the right leg to the right side of the horse without resting with it on the back. "Mounting this way one wouldn't look awfully from the back". This remark makes sense if underwear is not common. funda

Trebuchet wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2007 at 9:13pm:

When was the stirrup invented?  ...

http://www.computersmiths.com/chineseinvention/stirrup.htm Seems to be a recent invention ... considering how long the horse has been a domestic animal.

The stirrup was "introduced" to Europe from the Mongols. We have them to thank for the idea of fighting on horseback. As a result, the entire way of warfare and the idea of "chivalry" came about.

 If you can sling on a horse, does that mean you can do a drive ( or ride) by slinging of someone?

The historicians use to overestimate the stirrups. You do not sit better with it on a horse. It is not possible that something hanging at leather strands down from the saddle will give you any support against the impact of the enemiey lance. At roman times the persian cataphractes attacked like the mideaval knights but without stirrups and with much success.
I myself often ride without stirrups and i feel comfortable without them. The advantage of stirrups for slinging on horseback is in my opinion limited to the possibility to stand up from the saddle so that an unlucky  wind up would be less dangerous for the horse.

funda iucunda

Yep although it might be a bit slow.
And depending on your target they may riddle you with 10's of holes befroe you get away.

Marc Adkins


slingbadger wrote on Oct 5^th, 2007 at 10:29am:

The    If you can sling on a horse, does that mean you can do a drive ( or ride) by slinging of someone?

smgjerald wrote on Jul 12^th, 2007 at 7:54pm:

I consider myself a relatively experienced rider and would never consider actually trying it..The thought of what would happen if a shot went astray and hit my horse is somewhat unnerving.. Have learned to fire my bow from a horse allthough I am about 4feet from the target,not exactly a mongol warrior ;D After trying it for a few times my respect for  the mongols(and other cultures who used horse archers) went through the roof!!

Tales abound of overeager cavalry troops shooting their own horse in the back of the head by accident.

I know much more about Harley-Davidsons than I do horses, but I seem to recall noticing that some horse gaits are smoother than others.  Is this true, and would that enter into the slinging equation?

Trebuchet

slingbadger wrote on Oct 5^th, 2007 at 10:29am:

The stirrup was "introduced" to Europe from the Mongols. We have them to thank for the idea of fighting on horseback. As a result, the entire way of warfare and the idea of "chivalry" came about.  If you can sling on a horse, does that mean you can do a drive ( or ride) by slinging of someone?

Now THAT would make headline news!

Trebuchet

i recently went to a horse camp and seriously considered trying slinging on a horse, but i never got to try..... pity. :( ;)

do you think they'd let you try?
i don't think your mount would appreciate being hit in it's head or anywhere else for that matter, if the wind-up and release don't go as smoothly as you imagined them to go.  ;)

Not something I would recomend on the horses at your average horse camp. they are acustomed to the same trails and riders with little skill.

Kinda like roping off one of them.

Best thing I could think of would be either to use the horizontal release or a no wind up vertical release ( like the Apache Style)

Marc Adkins


axon50 wrote on Nov 14^th, 2007 at 12:31am:

i recently went to a horse camp and seriously considered trying slinging on a horse, but i never got to try..... pity. :( ;)

your both right, but aussie is more so, that's one of the reason's i never tried. ;)

Just want to make sure you don't screw up, or you just hamstrung or concussed your poor horse...

On reading Slingbadger's post, I immediately invisioned some wacko standing out a sunroof, slinging at pedestrians... Oh boy... :D

Quote:

I know much more about Harley-Davidsons than I do horses

i was looking at a harley, and went for a test ride on one, it was great, the sound and road presence, but then i saw in the accessory stand 6 chrome allen bolts which were worth about £3 - for £40!!! all the tinselly add-ons were overpriced beyond belief, so i rode away on my faster, smoother, more economical, better-braked and better-handling suzuki bandit - harley ownership is a con-trick, it's not a motorbike, it's a metal accessory for a costume drama......

but anyway, stirrups are for rising to the trot, which i can't do anyway because of a knackered hip-joint, and for preventing fatigue, as you don't have to grip with the legs as hard to avoid falling off.  
 
slinging from horseback would be easy for someone who can use a lasso as they would have the necessary co-ordination and muscle-memory. since i don't have a horse i have started slinging from my unicycle. so far without much success, but the effort involved is very good practice as it makes riding without slinging seem easy

here isn't me on a uni

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMRjaKdmjv8

SV





 

sv,

amazing skill, but just looking down the rocks makes me sick  :-[

The sling technique I use wouldn't be too difficult to use on horseback, but you would have to most likely throw across your body, the way that an archer would loose an arrow perpendicular to the horse. Also, you would have to develop your leg muscles to hold onto the horse by squeezing your legs in while you prepared your sling and let the rocks fly. I don't think that slinging from horseback would beat any distance records though. The weight shift would be much more difficult.

Do we have yet another use for the curious aardvark patented short sling ? I believe we do :-)
For horse back try a 16 inch sling. Minimum arm movement needed, power good to about 150 yards no long cords to get tangled round the horses head :-)
Even fig 8 works in a very compact swing area.

2008 - the year of the short sling !
lol

You patented a short sling? Assuming that was just an embellishment, why do you claim to have invented it? Just an unusually short sling, or does it have special aspects?
Because, I'll tell you right now, short slings have been my favorite since I started several years ago... And designed without the help of this site, either.
False claims!!  ;)

smgjerald wrote on Jul 12^th, 2007 at 4:38am:

I am not sure,will look into it. Although I think it could be somewhat difficult using a sling from a horse,I think it is quite possible,after all boleadora´s (or bola) were often used from horseback and it basically the same principle.

    Yes it would be difficult but the Chinese, I think came up with a way to use a bow and arrow on horse back. I think that they would have steered the horse with there feet.

Mongolians, actually. Along with other assorted "barbarian" tribes.

The Native Americans from the plains tribes seem to have done very well using a bow without sturrups. ::)

This is quite true. However, in the grand scheme of primitive invention, they had barely aquired horses when the white men showed up. Roughly 300 years, right? Somewhere in there...
Generally speaking, they didn't really use them enough to invent stirrups, yet...

I saw on the History channel that it was the Chinese who use a bow on a horse. The whole show was a biography on the bow. :)

well, dunno 'bout slinging off horseback, but, i find it hard to do a good sling off a bike while moving at a moderate speed (15kmph).

I don't have a horse, and I wouldn't try it if I could, but I also tried bicyclislinging (or Vélocifrondage in french. Fun fact, there is no direct translation of slinging in french. You shot with a sling.).

Very moderate speed, AussiePouch with my favorite shoestrings folded in 2 to have a short sling, irregular rocks picked up right before the attempt. Start with loaded sling, across the handle in a small dirt road with a lot of ruts.

First shot, low powered underhand, OK. Not my best shot ever, but it went in front of me.
Readying the second shot was a lot more tricky. So much more that I almost fell over the bike :D so the second stone was picked up a few second later, and slung with my feet firmly set on our planet :P

Seems to me most overhand attempts would lose the shot before you could sling it... so best bet from horseback sound like the helicopter sidearm cast. Quite a feat I imagine. So... so far we have only a few Scythian tribes doing it? Is that right? Anyone other cultures recorded doing it? It would make sense that in a sling rich culture those with horses would develop the ability to sling form horseback... could be a useful skill, like horse archery, though much lower rate of fire and accuracy I would think... still... if its a skill you've cultivated why not bring it to horseback?

Slinging from horseback is explicity attested for Roman auxiliaries, in the speech of the emperor Hadrian



http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1332408394/31

So yes, it was done. I can't find the text online. Someone wrote a paper about the speech

http://tigerpapers.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/hadrian-presentation.pdf

I have slung from my bike going around 25 MPH on a road(no cars) doing no hands. You have to be going fast enough and be used to high speed no hands(and shooting stuff that throws off your balance on a bike)... and please, please, please wear a helmet, elbow, and wrist pads if its your first try. I can't load a sling on bike easily, but I can easily sling as long as I am going fast enough.