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General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> Chinese slingers??
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Message started by happy dragon on May 22nd, 2007 at 6:40am

Title: Chinese slingers??
Post by happy dragon on May 22nd, 2007 at 6:40am
I have been searching around and have not managed to find any info on the use of the sling by the Chinese. As I'm sure many of you are aware the Chinese people have throughout their colorful history, made use of everything and anything as an effective weapon and so I find it rather surprizing that there is no mention of it. (taking into account of course my horrendous pc skills)
Does anyone have any info on the subject of..sling fu?? :)

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by funda_iucunda on May 22nd, 2007 at 3:26pm
Many weapons have been used and invented throughout Chinese history. It would be somehow natural that slings where in use.
Maybe Tint has some information about slinging in Chinese history.

funda iucunda

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by slingbadger on May 23rd, 2007 at 11:50am
Considering the fact that the Chinese came up with the concept of the Trebuchet, I would say they had to have knowledge of the sling. As far as I know ( feel free to correct) while the Europeans had knowledge of the torsion catapult, (onanger) they found the trebuchet during the 1st Crusade.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by Tint on May 23rd, 2007 at 12:26pm
Slings were used in Tibet.  But the main part of China have no record of it ever being in use.  There isn't even a proper word for the sling in the language.  One reason  may be due to the early invention of crossbows.

So as far as I know, I am the first Chinese slinger! (probably not! :P)

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by loh_kah_hoe on May 23rd, 2007 at 11:09pm
I think, the sling is almost an alien to the chinese. Chinese rarely know what it is....

I feel upset when I watch dramas/movies about chinesebattles. A group of slingers can do some serious damage to the troops, if the chinese know what the sling is back then. Poor peasants could have easily become a killer with those things. Why didn't they use it? :P

So, I guess it was totally forgotten becasue of the bow and arrow. ::)


Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by funda_iucunda on May 24th, 2007 at 5:05pm
Korfmanns thesis concerning the south west Asian history was that in early times the use of the bow excluded the use of the sling and vice versa. May be that China is a proves that idea though it was not in the focus of Korfmann.

funda iucunda

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by curious_aardvark on Jun 22nd, 2007 at 9:39am

Quote:
Poor peasants could have easily become a killer with those things. Why didn't they use it?  

you've answered your own question.
It was probably a proscribed weapon, use, manufacture or explaining punishable by death.

Try and put things into context, ancient chinese (actually not that ancient) society was totally stratified. peasants (essentially owned things) and not peasants.
Somewhat like the japanese and europaen model killing peasants was not a crime as such - unless you were a peasant.

It's why a lot of the chinese martial arts use farming implements as weapons, you did not have to hide your weapon.

But slings in the hands of peasants - that would have been a village massacre every time. Eventually the idea dies so the peasants might live and they find other things to use that have legitimate alternate uses.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by funda_iucunda on Jun 23rd, 2007 at 1:40pm
The illegality of slings would not be sufficient to explain why there is no slingingtradition in China. If it is legal to kill peasants it would have been no escape for the peasants not to have slings. And against noble men (or others) a resistance by use of farming implements would have been no real excuse ("Believe me, I just pierced him with the fork but not with a sword...!"). Besides that is the sling a normal tool for shepherds. It would not have been unusual to be seen with a sling, at least in regions where cattle is guardes by shepherds.

I think that it is rather a question of cultural tradition. As we know it from Europe there are countries which have a slinging tradition as for example Spain or which do not have as Germany.

funda iucunda

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by Dravonk on Jun 25th, 2007 at 6:42am
During some time all weapons were banned on Okinawa and that led to the development of karate and a lot of farming weapons. I guess the main point was they were "concealable". It was expected that a farmer had those tools, so he could handle them all the time. Swords and knifes were simply not accessible. (I have read there was one knife per village in Okinawa, bound and watched at the center). Of course slings are easily accessible and concealable, but can you do daily training with it when it is illegal? It is hard to do that indoors.

For the situation in Germany I guess that slings just weren't effective in the woods that covered Germany. In fact, it is very dangerous. I already had stones flying back at me because I accidently hit a tree.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by curious_aardvark on Jun 25th, 2007 at 7:11am
actually it's all much simpler.
The chinese had repeating crossbows in 200 bc.
Basically they were just too technologically advanced to bother with slings much in the last couple of thousand years :-)
And you really are underestimating the worthlessness of peasants. Also the peasant mindset was such that they accepted this. Rebellion was very rare in chinese history and always treated with amazing ruthlessness.

It's difficult for westerners to get their heads round the whole chinese social setup. Also bear in mind it ran almost unchanged for longer than any other soceity in world history.

But basically it's probably just that they outgrew slings long before the majority of our ancestors had even bothered to start digging holes to crap in.  

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by Dravonk on Jun 25th, 2007 at 7:23am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Jun 25th, 2007 at 7:11am:
The chinese had repeating crossbows in 200 bc.
Basically they were just too technologically advanced to bother with slings much in the last couple of thousand years :-)

Is a repeating crossbow comparable to a sling? The crossbow would have to be placed on a pole in order to operate the lever and the single shots would be rather weak with a low range. As an ultra-light weapon that can be carried everywhere the sling is still superior. And the sling has a higher range.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by smgjerald on Jul 10th, 2007 at 6:45pm
The repeating crossbow was handheld and was not very accurate but..and there is a big but here:they were poisontipped and were apparently very feared.

also thinking about their neighbouring tribes(most noteably the mongols,as it is them I know something about:-) would slings be effective considering their hit & run tactics?mongols massacred half of europe even the swedish and german knights who were reportedly econsidered elite forces of their time.
Didn´t seem to matter if they had slings or not though, since they defeated the chinese armies in short order ::)
repeater.GIF (26 KB | )

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 17th, 2007 at 3:50am

Quote:
Try and put things into context, ancient chinese (actually not that ancient) society was totally stratified. peasants (essentially owned things) and not peasants.  
Somewhat like the japanese and europaen model killing peasants was not a crime as such - unless you were a peasant.  
Killing nongmin has always been a crime, unless you were the emperor.  And Chinese society wasn't that stratified - there were a few peasants who became emperors and founded dynasties (notably, Song and Ming dynasties were founded by peasants), and technically, the civil examinations were open to anyone remotely educated, so even peasants could enter and move up a notch.  Chinese society was divided into SPAM - scholars, peasants, artisans and merchants.  Scholars were the highest, peasants were considered second because of their inherent importance, artisans were next because they were skilled and at least they weren't the dreaded merchants, who tried to make money, a very un-Confucian idea.  But it could and did move around.
 The reasons slings would not be used is because, as Tint says, crossbows were developed early on (maybe even as early as 1000BCE), and Chinese farming is not about shepherding or big herds.  Growing crops and keeping pigs are the traditional Han things to do.  And since one major use of the sling and good reason to practise it during peacetime is to keep predators away from flocks and the herded animals in line, slings would have become a bit of a redundant weapon, and lack of practise would cause it to be neglected.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by curious_aardvark on Jul 17th, 2007 at 3:43pm
plus they'd already eaten all the predators :-)

And it was me mentioned the crossbows ;-)

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 17th, 2007 at 5:35pm
Tint mentioned them in his post, fourth down.

 Actually, China used to have a lot of predators, and now they've mostly been (you're right) eaten or used as medicine.  Tigers, leopards, bears, wolves, Mongolians...

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 17th, 2007 at 5:38pm
And for the record, repeating crossbows are more toy than weapon.  Poison is the only thing that could make them really good.  They were used in battle (depictions from the Ming, naval battles, and the Boxer Rebellion), but not as the primary weapons of an army.  Much more powerful single shot crossbows were used, with much longer stocks and in the classical period, more advanced trigger mechanisms than European ones until about the 16th century, when crossbows became sport weapons.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by smgjerald on Jul 17th, 2007 at 6:47pm
I am aware that the use wasn´t widespread, from what I read somewhere, they were often used in garrison defenses where masses of attacking enemies was an easy target for the repeating crossbow,much in the same way as machineguns are used today.

Well,they didn´t actually eat the mongols lol,the mongols owned the chinese armies..The mongols conquered them and ruled until the chinese rebelled and threw them out.

I am a big fan of Temudjin(Genghis Khan was his title,means ruler of the world)not so bloodthirsty as rumor has it,but not exactly your friendly neighbouring barbarian either :)  

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 18th, 2007 at 6:00am
In the transliteration into English it's usually "Temüjin".  The "u" has an umlaut because there are two "u"s in Mongolian - one is more like a back-of-the-throat "o", represented by a "u" in the English transliteration, and one is just like the "oo" in "moo" which is the umlaut u.  And the best way to transliterate "Genghis" is actually "Chinggis".  "Genghis" was used by the first people who were properly investigating Mongol history, who happened to be French - the French pronunciation of Genghis is nothing like the English, but the name stuck in English language texts.
 Transliterating words is an important thing when studying Mongolian or Mongol history.  Most books on Mongol history nowadays have an introduction at the beginning which outlines the sysems used, especially as Persian, Chinese, Mongol, Japanese, Korean, as well as European, sources are used and they all have different pronunciations.


Quote:
Well,they didn´t actually eat the mongols lol,the mongols owned the chinese armies..The mongols conquered them and ruled until the chinese rebelled and threw them out.
Bit of an over-simplification, but sort of true, I suppose.  Actually, though, only a minority of the Mongol presence in China went back to what is now Mongolia in 1368.  Most stayed behind, because it has been almost a century since the first invasion, and they'd set down roots.  And even nowadays, so-called Inner Mongolia has 10 times the population of Mongolia because of a very odd relationship during the Ming dynasty - the Chinese played tribes off against each other, forced some to stay behind the wall, and so on.  I wrote a big essay on it a few months ago.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by curious_aardvark on Jul 18th, 2007 at 8:55am

Quote:
And for the record, repeating crossbows are more toy than weapon

lmao - which is of course why they used to to fend off pirates and the like ewith them on ships. Or use them on castle walls to fend off enemies.
Every now and then you still keep making these really daft sweeping statements that put the sense you talk into the shadow.
(that's actually a compliment lol)
Once you realise that you probably don't know everything - you'll really get there :-)

If they were of no more use than toys - they would not have used them in battle - it's that simple.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 18th, 2007 at 9:22am
I'm not saying they can't be used as weaponry, but they still suck.  They jam easily - even the well-made ones - and much more so if you put on even the lightest fletching.  They can't have a powerful prod or they become really slow and difficult to use, they can't have a long draw because then they lose the speed for which they are built, and the friction of the string on the stock (and on some versions, the magazine as well) cuts down efficiency.  The "bolts" (more like darts) can't be particularly heavy or very accurate due to lack of fletching and the need to fit inside the magazine.  You could probably kill someone if you are lucky, and they make good barrage weapons, especially as you don't really aim them, because of the poor accuracy - you could be safely  behind a wall just cranking the lever and not looking where the shots are going and it would still function.  They certainly can't penetrate even the most basic armour - certainly not the seven layers of boiled leather which was standard in the Warring States period - and their only use is as a self-defense weapon, a sort of wooden blunderbuss with much less power.  The first time they were shown in common use was in campaigns against the "Japanese" pirates (the consensus is that they were actually Chinese smugglers, but...) who didn't wear armour; that's not a co-incidence.
 There was a justification for calling them toys, you know.  I didn't say they weren't cool or fun to use, or a great invention.  Just that if you had a powerful single shot crossbow and I had one of those repeaters, odds are that you would kill me first, even at a shorter range.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by smgjerald on Jul 18th, 2007 at 1:37pm
of course I oversimplified it,no need to write several pages of why they beat the chinese:) Only mentioned his name because so many thinks genghis Khan was his actual name!
Also aware of the translation problems,but didn´t know this was a grammar debate..AND I am norwegian and have no idea how to translate norwegian grammar to english forexample:  what you call "umlaut" is "Tødler" på norsk ::)

It was a friend of mine who is half japanese and half-mongolian who got me interested,he is seriously proud of his heritage.

Well,if the other guy had a powerful single shot crossbow and you a repeater with poisontipped quarrels..well,he´d better pray he hit you first :)

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 18th, 2007 at 2:24pm

Quote:
Well,if the other guy had a powerful single shot crossbow and you a repeater with poisontipped quarrels..well,he´d better pray he hit you first Smiley
More likely, you'd be praying that the thing doesn't jam, so that you don't have to stick your finger in there and get poisoned by accident, and after that first prayer is over, you'd be praying that your shots hit the target - it is very far from a precision weapon.


Quote:
what you call "umlaut" is "Tødler" på norsk
:) What a wonderful word.  I love accents.


Quote:
Only mentioned his name because so many thinks genghis Khan was his actual name!
Well, to all intents and purposes, it was.  Temüjin is quite a common boy's name in Mongolia, whereas Chinggis Khan only refers to the ruler.  The favourite Mongol whiskey brand is "Chinggis Khani Arkhi", Chinggis Khan's whisky.  Temüjin is a name used by a friend of mine in my Mongolian class.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by smgjerald on Jul 18th, 2007 at 3:57pm

Quote:
what you call "umlaut" is "Tødler" på norsk


lol, I forgot to return to writing english after writing "tødler",what I write afterwards is "in norwegian" ;D

Well,I dont know the magazine capacity of the crossbow,but if you forexample have 10 shots,you could go completely apeshit on the poor guy :o
Well,unless it jams..That would suck :-/

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 18th, 2007 at 5:06pm
Would, and does.  I suppose you could go apeshit, but while you're doing that, he's taking good aim and shooting you.  With enough power to kill without poison.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by smgjerald on Jul 18th, 2007 at 5:50pm
haha,kind of schmeisser vs a sniper rifle ::) I actually don´t even like the automatic crossbow,in my experience the more advanced=the more bullshit..

As of the mongols,my friend made me drink kumys(yeah yeah,so maybe I didn´t write it correctly:-) a couple of years ago..No wonder the mongols are a hardcore race..you HAVE to be to drink that stuff,urgh :o

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 18th, 2007 at 6:13pm
I don't think there is a standard way of writing it - "koumiss" is used often, but I think "qimiz" is seen as most correct by Turkish speakers.  I'm not sure.  In Mongolian, it's called "airag."  It just tastes like sweet yoghurt to me, not bad, but some people hate it.  Mongol tea is the strangest, though.  Salt, lots and lots of milk and some tea cut from a brick.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by smgjerald on Jul 18th, 2007 at 7:10pm
He has been talking about talking a trip to mongolia, and I am considering going along, would love to visit Mongolia.

I like yoghurt,but there was something about the taste that was totally repulsing..
we have a type of milk in Norway called Kefir wich is rumored to be developed from kumys.. doesn´t matter though like neither ;D

he said there is another type of kumys,apparently the "super" variation,can´t remember what he called it at the moment.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by bigkahuna on Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:57pm
It's called" mares milk currdled with horse piss"!  ;D  I'd rather drink Kava. ;D

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 19th, 2007 at 3:22am

Quote:
It's called" mares milk currdled with horse piss"!
No piss involved.  Just mare's milk, and a container.  You keep it in a container and stir it repeatedly for a few a day or two, and it ends up slightly alcoholic and a bit bubbly.


Quote:
He has been talking about talking a trip to mongolia, and I am considering going along, would love to visit Mongolia.
I'm heading up to Mongolia next year.  I'll post pictures if I can.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by smgjerald on Jul 19th, 2007 at 3:26pm

bigkahuna wrote on Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:57pm:
It's called" mares milk currdled with horse piss"!


I just showed my friend this post and he went ballistic..From his insulted reaction I can guarantee you that there is no piss involved:-)

Pictures would be great,we were actually talking about taking the trip next summer.
considering he´s half mongolian and haven´t been in his homeland for 10 years,he´s very eager to see his homeland again.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by bigkahuna on Jul 19th, 2007 at 10:25pm
I stand corrected and appologize to any Mongolians I may have offended.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by kava fiend on Jul 20th, 2007 at 12:59am
" ;D I'd rather drink kava. ;D" - bigkahuna

word to that, bro!!

for anyone who wants to try Kava, there are two types: Waka and Lawena.
both have very  distinct flavours; even though they come from the same plant. Waka (in my opinion) has a nicer flavour and is stronger than Lawena.

Kava is like alcohol except it isn't fermented or distilled, rather the effects are similar to alcoholic intoxication, except that Kava doesn't lower your inhibitions, doesn't make you "groggy" as it increases awareness (also makes you talkative - great for parties) and isn't at all addictive. It's a communal drink, so always have a couple of friends around so you can get euphoric and mellowed ( it's like booze) out together.

also it is said that those who partake in drinking Kava, afterwards always have pleasant and vivid dreams, to which I can attest is true (If you don't believe me, try it yourself) ,beats  waking up with a hangover.

In regards to Kefir and Koumiss, the book The Alaskan Bootleggers Bibel by Leon W. Kania, has some nice recipes or making both. If you make Koumiss watch out for the cottage cheese; the stench is quite bad, but the Koumiss however is quite nice :D


Kava_Fiend


Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by smgjerald on Jul 20th, 2007 at 5:27am
Sounds like a fun drink:) Kava is some tribal stuff right?
The Kava stuff actually(Have never tried Kava) sounds alot like Absinth,wich is great stuff. Got legal in scandinavia again a few years ago,and allthough I almost never touch alcohol anymore, I remember how much fun the stuff is ;)


Quote:
I stand corrected and appologize to any Mongolians I may have offended

He said he has heard those rumors before,he is not offended..anymore,lol ;D




Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by bigkahuna on Jul 20th, 2007 at 6:17am
:)

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 20th, 2007 at 7:00am
Kava is illegal in the United Kingdom, I think.   :'(  Fascist government, you see.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by kava fiend on Jul 20th, 2007 at 7:04am
smgjerald,

Kava, tribal stuff? well maybe; it is used by the Islander peoples of the south pacific and I imagine many of them live traditional tribal lives.

Kava isn't actually alcohol. It's a plant / herb. you mention Absynth (Kylie Minogue is one hot green faerie  :)) which tastes like licorice / aniseed. umm, I can't really describe the taste of Kava as after about, four or five drinks Kava makes your lips and tongue go numb, it's a cool sensation though. However it does smell the same as nutmeg.

I think I read somwhere that Kava is illegal in scandinavia. I'm pretty sure that it is illegal in germany.


If you ever do get the chance try it,by all means do, you wont be dissapointed.

Kava_Fiend


Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by kava fiend on Jul 20th, 2007 at 7:22am
just reviewed what I posted and saw the above post by english

Yeah dude it might be illegal in the UK and other parts of Europe as it was marketed over there (Europe) as a "herbal dietry supplement" or some such name. It was sold and bought in pill form from healthfood shops and the like. Apparently a few people in Germany damaged their livers from taking the pills  because the dosage was to high or they didn't follow the dirctions on the packaging, I read this online somwhere a while back, so I don't know how relevant it is to Kava's status in Europe particularly Germany is at the moment.

If it's any consolation, even in Australia Kava is very hard to find outside of Sydney, it's even illegal to buy it in the Northern Territory, I know as a mate of mine couldn't get his hands on it when he moved to Darwin, he was not happy about it at all :-[.

Kava_Fiend

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by smgjerald on Jul 20th, 2007 at 7:30am
hmm,not sure it is illegal anymore considering absinth got legal a few years back..I think absinth is based of herbs aswell?
absinth really messes with you head if you drink to much of the stuff,remember a friend of mine having a serious conversation the the hair on his arms,then he fell asleep standing in the shower for 4 hours..

yeah called it "tribal stuff" because I have barely heard of Kava,but was sure I heard somewhere it came from some islands :)

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by kava fiend on Jul 20th, 2007 at 7:47am
LOL  ;D  Absynth will do that to you, probably one of the best convo's hes had whislt under the influence  ;D

the active ingredient in Absynth is the herb WormWood which apparantly contains psychodelic properties, most of the legal versions that are available at the grog shop have this ingredient ommited or substituted with something else. Pernods is one of the  the most prolific imitation Absynths on the market, it has the flavour and the green goes white colour change but absolutely no WormWood.  

most people don't know this, so the 'placebo effect'  probably helps them chase the green faery.

I'm yet to try it. But when I do (because Absynth is expensive) I'll definately get a bottle that has WormWood in it.  :)

Kava_Fiend

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by smgjerald on Jul 20th, 2007 at 7:54am
Can get the real one in Finland,That´s where I tried it the first time..No placebo effect there,since none of us had tried it or even heard much about it.
the one they sell here in Norway is absinth but toned down(same ingredients only less of it),but they will order the real one if you ask.

the first time I tried I had just been wrestling,and it went straight to my head..No more pain only fun ;)

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by kava fiend on Jul 20th, 2007 at 8:10am
I'm told they call Absynth 'wife beater' in the UK, don't know if it's true or not.  Finland eh? who needs Absynth or Kava when you can get Pontikka :o, which in all probabilities would have you talking to brick walls and pickle your insides nicely.

Cheers for the heads up dude, but I will try and source it locally. I suck at currency conversions and it would probably be cheaper than ordering it internationally, that is unless I have to, to get the real stuff.

like Billy Connolly has said: anywhere where humans go they always  find something to smoke and brew something to drink.

Kava_Fiend

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 20th, 2007 at 8:22am
I just checked online - kava is illegal.  It would be fairly easy to plead ignorance of the law, but it seems like kava is indeed banned in the UK, and in Canada, as well as places you wouldn't except like the Netherlands and Switzerland, which both have legal marijuana.  (According to potseeds.co.uk anyway.)


Quote:
the first time I tried I had just been wrestling
The oldest and one of the coolest sports in the world.  What style of wrestling was it?

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by smgjerald on Jul 20th, 2007 at 8:25am
I have been greco-roman wrestling for several years,but that particular night it was pro-wrestling:-)
Just to wrestle both greco-roman very actively,but my shoulder was completely destroyed in a match so dislocates all the time..now I wrestle basically for fun and to stay in shape,while pro-wrestling is my hobby:)

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 20th, 2007 at 8:30am

Quote:
but my shoulder was completely destroyed in a match so dislocates all the time..
Ouch.  My uncle used to have a problem like that, and then took up yoga.

Greco-Roman looks great fun, but the rules against using legs in a throw would be hard for me.  Chinese wrestling is all about creating a throw with two different forces operating, making the throws efficient and powerful, and Brazilian jiu jitsu has different aims altogether.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by kava fiend on Jul 20th, 2007 at 9:00am
Im always impressed by how quick or how long bouts can be in greco-roman wrestling and the skill involved. I used to practice judo ('the gentle way' - don't you believe it ;)) so like english, the dampener for me is that you cant use your legs especially when they are so versatile at tripping, trapping and snaring your oponent.

legal ganja and they ban Kava? Kava doesn't mess you up like ganja does.

all the health benefits associated to Kava; social, psychologigal, physical:(Kava brings on deep sleep which helps the body prepare for the next day). far outweighs any of it's negatives like scaly skin which only comes about if you abuse the substance. the scaly skin dissapears when you abstain from drinking kava, at which time you can resume drinking and hopefully not abusing it. that is the only real side effect of kava, can anybody say harmless.

What does ganja do, get you high and gives you the munchies, and it's effects can be permanent for those who abuse it. it's widely documented that prolonged use marijuana can depress the CNS thus making you SLOW  :o even if you stop using, so once the damage is done, thats it.  

It's a bloody outrage! >:(

oh well, thats the way the cookie crumbles. but what do I care I do Kava I don't do weed. :-?

sorry for the rant.

Kava_Fiend


Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 20th, 2007 at 9:18am

Quote:
What does ganja do, get you high and gives you the munchies, and it's effects can be permanent for those who abuse it. it's widely documented that prolonged use marijuana can depress the CNS thus making you SLOW  Shocked even if you stop using, so once the damage is done, thats it.
Abusing alcohol is much worse than abusing weed, and unlike with weed, you can actually OD on it, and get addicted to it.  It can make you slow, but only if you abuse it, and the whole "marijuana psychosis" thing is an effect that is much worse if you drink to excess.  I don't smoke it, and I don't intend to (except when I'm about 80 - then I'll start doing everything under the sun just to see what it's like before I pop my clogs), but it shouldn't be illegal, just as kava shouldn't be illegal.  It's a very hypocritical system we have in western countries.  Legalise the lot, I say, and get taxes from the drugs - and more importantly, educate people about the real risks and not invented ones, so that they can make a reasoned choice.


Quote:
the dampener for me is that you cant use your legs especially when they are so versatile at tripping, trapping and snaring your oponent.
Using the legs in a throw is great fun as well.  There's a technique in shuaijiao called the "rowing hook" (huagou, I think, but I'm not sure of the exact Chinese) where you hook your leg in front of the opponent's leg, and just as he thinks you're going to trip him back, you loop your foot around the back of his ankle and flip his leg forward.  But there's no groundwork in shuaijiao, unlike judo.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by kava fiend on Jul 20th, 2007 at 10:50am
hmmm well yes I agree with what your saying, and I am pro chioice on most things. but I find it laughable that a country can legalise weed, but ban Kava as it would be in my opinion the lesser of two evils.

illegal drugs are deemed so because it is acknowledged that they can and do possess a threat to those who use them and others in the community in which the user resides. Alcohol is legal so most people have easy access to it and that is why it is easier to abuse. sure dude, legalise illegal drugs and collect the taxes, but do you want to deal with the raft of social issues that come along with doing so.
my guess would be no.

Kava isn't an illegal substance and has been used by communities in the south seas since they first populated the islands there. don't want those who read this and don't know about kava to think I'm some sort of druggo ;)

what is shuajiao, is it a hybrid or an ancient form of gung fu? the move you describe could it be the common 'ankle tap'. man, I love that move, it's so simple.
the thing about throwing people always comes back to balance, you gotta break their centre balance,only then can they be thrown (exluding brute force or weight - both of which can help)

at the risk of soundin' like a newbie, how do you get quotes to show up in blocks like in your posts, I've looked everywhere for the magic button but can't seem to find it :-?

but umm yeah, drugs are bad, don't do 'em (unless the doctor tells you to)  :)

Kava_Fiend

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 20th, 2007 at 12:52pm
The quote button is the one with a page with a blue arrow pointing to the right, just next to the typewriter and the hash.

Shuaijiao is the oldest Chinese martial art, and the origin of pretty much all Chinese systems, even the predominantly striking ones.  It's basically Chinese wrestling, and there are a few different styles styles.  Mongolian wrestling is a relative of shuaijiao, and they developed together - the Mongol or other nomad styles probably influenced shuaijiao more than the other way, but there are a lot of training methods in shuaijiao which are unique (equipment training, mostly).  I think that the nomad styles had more influence, because shuaijiao is almost exclusively a northern style, and there are few southern shuaijiao teachers.   Shuaijiao is almost certainly the origin of sumo (Chinese is "xiangpu", which in the Tang dynasty, the time of most Chinese influence on Japan, was the name of shuaijiao), and probably the origin of the oldest organised forms of jujutsu, but obviously once it reached Japan, it became very much a Japanese thing, and jujutsu developed pretty much independently.
 And shuaijiao is an element in all Chinese martial arts as well as a separate system.  It's just the throwing side. You could study, say, taijiquan, and then enter a shuaijiao tournament, so long as you know the rules and train hard.

"Ankle tap" could be the name of it.  I love all the leg hooking techniques.

 It really is difficult to think of a reason why pot would be legal but not kava.  Pot is definitely a stronger drug with more obvious effects.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by smgjerald on Jul 20th, 2007 at 1:01pm
we trained in "illegal" tecniques when I started wrestling,we were strictly told we could never use it,but was important to train balance.
Many of the trows in wrestling utilizes the opponents bodyweight and/or momentum,but a few requires brute strength(look at russian wrestling legend Karelin,he manhandled everybody!)
Have done alot of martial arts,started Tae Kwon Do at age 6,and did that for about 12 years.done Kickboxing,Greco-roman wrestling,pro-wrestling and a little shootfighting awhile back but my shoulder couldn´t take it..started Pro-wrestling when I was 22,and used alot of my martial arts background.

What can I say,I was a energetic kid,and my parents needed to make me blow off some steam.
What I have observed is the similarities between all forms of martial arts,many of the same throws are utilized.Even in TKD,especially the original Tkd, not the pure competitive sports version wich is popular these days.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 20th, 2007 at 1:42pm

Quote:
many of the same throws are utilized.
Definitely.  Shuaijiao has similar throws to judo, which are similar to ones in many European wrestling styles, and even African styles.  I know that looking at the Beni Hasan images (the oldest martial arts images in the entire world, from Egypt), I can see many techniques that I recognise.  The main differences between styles are 1) training methods and 2) body mechanics.  For instance, shuaijiao has a lot of equipment training - wooden clubs, braided ropes, weighted ropes (or, nowadays, elastic ropes), bundles of canes - which are not found in judo.  And doing a basic over the shoulder throw in judo is not the same as in shuaijiao - in which you use a powerful, explosion upwards at the hips.

 The only other martial arts I've ever done are judo, when I was about 7, muay thai for a very short while (gym was too far away), taijiquan, and now, Brazilian jiu jitsu, Sanshou kickboxing and Shuaijiao.  Sanshou (or sanda) is a set of rules for kickboxing in China, where throws are legal, but no groundwork.  You could use any technique you want so long as its in the rules, and it's pretty exciting to watch.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by kava fiend on Jul 21st, 2007 at 3:12am

Quote:
The quote button is the one with a page with a blue arrow pointing to the right, just next to the typewriter and the hash.


thanks for that english, I must be goin' blind. ;D

it is interesting that you say that a basic over the shoulder throw in judo would be different from Shuaijiao, because the throw you described with the 'explosiveness from the hips' is also used in judo.
what I have discovered in training in martial arts namely judo, TKD, boxing, karate and the list goes on, is that all the techniques are just variations on a theme - there are only so many ways to hit, kick, throw and grapple your oponent.

just gotta be able to strike hard and fast.

kava_fiend

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 21st, 2007 at 5:07am

Quote:
it is interesting that you say that a basic over the shoulder throw in judo would be different from Shuaijiao, because the throw you described with the 'explosiveness from the hips' is also used in judo.
what I have discovered in training in martial arts namely judo, TKD, boxing, karate and the list goes on, is that all the techniques are just variations on a theme - there are only so many ways to hit, kick, throw and grapple your oponent.
The power in a boxing punch, a Jeet Kune Do punch, and a taijiquan punch, are all different.  The basic ideas are the same - using as much of the body as possible in an explosive  movement - but they all carry it out differently.  There are only so many ways to hit and throw, but the training for them and the precise body mechanics are different, like the difference between a muay thai roundhouse kick and a TKD roundhouse kick, and the difference between the shuaijiao throw and the judo throw. I consulted my brother - we threw each other (he's a judoka), and his throw was much smoother than mine and there was no jump with the feet as he threw, but just a subtle push upwards.  It's the little things.  The throw is essentially the same, though.

If you're interested in seeing some shuaijiao, you can see it on Youtube.  Some pretty cool videos up about techniques, showing competitions, etc.  An alternative, older spelling is "shuai chiao".

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by loh_kah_hoe on Jul 21st, 2007 at 11:41pm
If I did not make any mistakes, 'shuai jiao' directly means wrestling. ::)

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by english on Jul 22nd, 2007 at 4:41am
Yes, it does - Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in Chinese is just Baxi Shuaijiao, Brazilian wrestling.  But even in China, people say "shuaijiao" when they mean "zhongguo shuaijiao", and sometimes they just say the exact style - like Baoding Kuaijiao (Baoding style fast wrestling), Tianjian Guanjiao (Tianjin style wrestling), that kind of thing.  When speaking in English, it's fine just to call it shuaijiao normally.

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by bigkahuna on Jul 24th, 2007 at 2:27am

wrote on Jul 20th, 2007 at 7:04am:
smgjerald,

Kava, tribal stuff? well maybe; it is used by the Islander peoples of the south pacific and I imagine many of them live traditional tribal lives.

Kava isn't actually alcohol. It's a plant / herb. you mention Absynth (Kylie Minogue is one hot green faerie  :)) which tastes like licorice / aniseed. umm, I can't really describe the taste of Kava as after about, four or five drinks Kava makes your lips and tongue go numb, it's a cool sensation though. However it does smell the same as nutmeg.

I think I read somwhere that Kava is illegal in scandinavia. I'm pretty sure that it is illegal in germany.


If you ever do get the chance try it,by all means do, you wont be dissapointed.

Kava_Fiend

                                       Tastes like mud. :P

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by kava fiend on Jul 24th, 2007 at 5:10am

english,
checked out shuai jiao on youtube, I was quite impressed with the skills shown, reminded me of my judo days.


Quote:
Tastes like mud.  :P
- bigkahuna

well, it does come from the roots of the plant, so it probably does taste a bit 'earthy' and it also looks like dishwater, or so some of my friends say.

I havn't tasted mud, but I'm sorry, I will have to disagree with you on that one. there are two different types of Kava, Waka and Lawenna and each has it's own flavour. I always found the taste and smell similar to nutmeg.
still, it's not for everyone, I guess.

Kava_Fiend

Title: Re: Chinese slingers??
Post by Trebuchet on Oct 3rd, 2007 at 9:26pm

happy dragon wrote on May 22nd, 2007 at 6:40am:
I have been searching around and have not managed to find any info on the use of the sling by the Chinese. As I'm sure many of you are aware the Chinese people have throughout their colorful history, made use of everything and anything as an effective weapon and so I find it rather surprizing that there is no mention of it. (taking into account of course my horrendous pc skills)
Does anyone have any info on the subject of..sling fu?? :)


The answer is simple, Grasshopper.  The inscrutable Chinese were too busy grooming actors for the many Kung Fu movies they would make in future years, and preparing David Carradine for his role in the TV series “Kung Fu.”

Shao-lin Temple Boxing took lots of time, and memorizing the sayings of the venerable Confucius occupied the rest.

Very simple, Locust … I mean, Grasshopper.

Trebuchet
8-)

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