I started using wide grip not long ago and I feel I am getting the spiral spin now.  Especially with long narrow stones.  It feels more acurate than closed grip somehow.   Less powerful though and it hurts my fingers more.

So are there any tip in controling the spin?  I find that a softer pocket and shorter slings works better.  Also an asymetrical pocket helps.  Any other?  Textured pocket, perharps?

i learned on the wide grip long before i knew the difference between that and the narrow grip.

i don't really pay attention to the spin, as my stones are either aimed for right in front of me or way out across the forest.

If one is using smooth round stones, spin is not a major factor within the range that one can expect acceptable accuracy.  For distance, why not try a steering vane....it's a rather spoiling experience and more forgiving on hand and wrist joints.


TS

Hey Tint,

In theory, accuracy comes by being able to repeat the same throw and hit the same spot, this is then adjusted to different ranges.

What happens to the projectile has some input in your accuracy but not as much as your sling casters and ability to reproduce the throw.

Note: This doesn't take into account the physics behind the ammunition itself. (Roughness, smoothness, aerodynamic)

That said, after reading allot of stuff on slinging.org and then on the theory behind it. I would say something along these lines:

Spin creates the magnus effect and is always at work no matter which direction the object is spinning.

Really you just want a consistent spin in one direction with no spin/tumble in any other direction.

The spin left or right will push the projectile off target to the left or right, top spin will make it fall short and back spin make it go further.

So in the end, you the caster make the decision on which one you want to be consistent with then adjust your casting style to compensate. My suggestion would be to give it a hell of a back spin and then go from there.

ts, does the vane attach to the pocket of the sling or to the projectile to act as a sort of fletching and keep the projectile going front first?
if attached to the projectile, i can see a large benefit, as it would take no time at all for the oblong ammo to turn so that it is facing in the most earodynamic direction

Excuse my being naive, but what is "wide-grip"? :-[

that is okay bjarn, i only figured it out recently.
wide grip is when you hold the sling loop on your middle finger or first finger or ring finger or pinky and then let it hang down and grip the release node with your thumb and forfinger, or at least so that it comes out around there.

narrow grip is when you run the retention cord throught your hand so that both cords are pinched together.

btw, this kid i am teaching to sling uses a weird grip.  he puts the retention cord on his middle finger and holds the release knot btween his middle and first finger tips so that it is a wide grip, but he doesn't use his thumb at all, just those two fingers.  the cord, btw, is at the tips of his fingers, sort of like davincci's staff sling design with the slit in the end if the staff

Here is a pic of one of my prototype distance rigs.  The steering vane is attached to the pocket, enabling one to produce consistent spiral releases nearly every cast.  I say nearly, because natural ammo will sometimes have destabilization issues caused by shape/mass imbalance.  Obviously, the more symmetrical one's ammo choice, the better one can expect in the way of performance.  I'm a bit discriminating when it comes to rock choice, so I can get spiral releases at every cast.


http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/2161/spiralglidereleasesystemsr8.jpg


TS

i see.

for some specialized ammo you could cast lead bullets with a little ring attached to the backside for attachment to a vane of sorts that would keep the ammo going the right way striaght out of the pocket.  sort of like fletching.   it produces drag to the rear of the projectile so that it will go just a little slower than the front, making it always fly point first.

Siguy,
The attachment ring is in the back end of the glande?  So at release, it would be oriented perpendicular to the direction of flight, and the fletching would cause it to rotate and stabilize in a nose-first orientation.

There is another way to do it, used by David Engvall when he set the Guinness world record for slinging (though I still think his rig is more like a kestrosphendone than a sling).  David Engvall used darts with a hole in the side, to which a specialized release mechanism was attached.  There is a link to a picture, in the gallery, and here is a link to a larger-scale photo that shows more details.  The picture is 1.2 megabytes, so I hope you have a fast connection...

TechStuf,
A year ago I saw Jurek's idea for keeping the cords from fouling the release, and made myself a copy of it.  I just had to; it was such a neat idea.

Now I am going to be busy this evening, and it is all your fault! ;D

I would guess that this sling has to be used with a narrow grip (just like Jurek's design).

I guess I use wide grip then!
I put the loop around my middle finger and hold the release between my first finger and thumb

Speaking of Jurek....I wonder where he has gotten to?


He is a "true slinger" if ever there was one!  My release mechanism is an adaptation of my dart release hook I was using in the eighties and lends itself well to either wide or narrow grip style.  Yurek's is simpler and certainly as functional.  Actually, there are a number of ways to prevent one's ammunition from contacting the release cord, some simpler than Yurek's and mine both.


I'm confident that you, Dale.....could put us both to shame by introducing one of those methods, if so inclined!


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TS

TechStuf,

Can I verify a couple of details of your design?

It looks like the washer has holes drilled in it at (from the top, where the release cord attaches) 12 o'clock, 6 o'clock and 8 o'clock (that being where the retained cord attaches), and the release cut runs at about a 30 degree angle from vertical ("vertical" being the angle from the release cord, through the washer to the fixed pouch attachment).  Am I close?

Pretty darn, Dale....pretty darn.


As this step, like the hand made sling grips, is quite time consuming.....I am having both parts outsourced in the interest of producing a safer, more profitable and durable unit.


Here is what the release hook on our production model will look like:


http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/376/releasehookdimensionsmediumwebviewth2.jpg


Such design maximizes the leverage effect, greatly reducing the amount of tension on the release tab, enabling one to get the most out of the Pro-Grip and comfortably sling heavier ammo as well.


TS

Sounds good ... I have only hand tools, so it is going to take some time to drill, cut and file that washer.  My copy of Jurek's design was much faster, all I had to do was cut a length of 9-guage wire, file the ends smooth, and wrap some cord around it and the pouch.

Thank you for confirming my guesses, TechStuf!

I find that the spiral spin feels as if the rock is staying longer in the pocket during the release and such feeling allows me to reproduce a similar shot with pratice.

The slings I use are very old schooled.  But I think they hon my skills as a slinger.  ::)

If you can feel such a difference then your reflexes must be honed indeed!  Honestly, how do fellow martial artists react to your sling demonstrations?  I would think that such an art would really take off over there!


TS

Tech

Good job. minimum profile and light weight. My experiment had coat hanger wire and sort of semi open loops instead of coils. It was made for lead projectiles. The small/dense ammo was totally invisible in flight and thus impossible to determine what happened to them. I could only estimate by the feel at release that the distance was as much as 3 times my baseball slinging range.  However all of my recent baseball slings use the lexan release hook with the addition of a trip cord to allow cord separation at pouch end.
Keep up your great interesting stuf Tech!

Tom

After a couple thousands of shots I do start to feel the subtler differences, especially with short heavy slings.  I think that is the key to getting better at anything, just keep going way past the point of bordom. :P

The dojo that I went to really didn't have the space for slinging.  And I didn't stay long enough to make friends who'd go to the suburb to witness my obession.  Most of my tennis friends shows interest though.  I just went slinging on Monday with a bunch of them.  Most of them do well with the fgure 8.

I would have thought the martial artists would be all over it....and instead it's the tennis guys!  Well, I guess it stands to reason, especially that they would master the overhand styles!


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TS

Tint,
When you use a narrow grip, do you put the finger loop on your pinky finger, and run the cord across your palm?  If so, then you are getting a little support from friction between the cord and your hand.  When you use a wide grip, one finger is supporting the whole load.

I found that making the finger loop thicker distributes the load over a wider area, and it relieves pain.  That is the idea behind wrapping the finger loop, as Funslinger and Jurek showed us.

Another way to do this is to make a double loop on the fingerloop.  I have done with using a bowline knot, as Jurek shows (see the last photo in that post) and a perfection knot (sorry, no picture available).

oh! :o I ought to try the double loop idea.  

Thanks Dale!

great discusion guys
I am a big fan of the wide grip release. I can feel when my relase is not consistant. often its the ammo spinning off the back of the pouch.  I seem to get a better constant accuracy with the wide grip than the narrow grip. i find the wrist loop wrist loop aid in a more costant release.

lobohunter, how do you do a wide release with a wrist loop?  do you let it hang down from the wrist or do you lead it through your hand to the middle of your fingers?
i tried a wrist loop from the wrist and had trouble making it work for me.

Sorry about taking so long to reply to this post. been up on pct. Any way i thread it though my middle finger and pinky finger then the release string in the normal spot between middle and thumb. One of the reasons I like the wist loop so much is its easy to change things. Heck if you want to shorten the sling just wrap around the wrist a time or two

oh akoy i get it now

Hey, TechStuf!

I just built a sling using your wire release hook.  I was cheap, I just used 12-gauge bailing wire.  Here's my first impressions:

This is not a sling for general use, it takes too long to load it.

It is rather heavy.  Noticeable pull on fingers after release, which is something to get used to.

I'm consistently releasing LATE!  I think I need to work at the release gadget with some pliers.  I believe the angle and curve of the wire is critical to a good release, and I've got them wrong.  Then I need to polish the wire, I can feel the release ring catching on the wire.

FOLLOWUP: the shape of the hook is not as important as its smoothness.  I finally gave up and made another hook, and I was careful not to mar the surface of the wire.  Even though it is not as well shaped as this one in the picture, it releases much, much better.

If you want, I'll scan the sling and post the photo.

Yes please, photos, allways photos, for all of us.

Willeke

Dale,  I wouldn't mind seeing a photo.....as mine seems to have no problems.  Sure, it's weight is noticeable but negligible....and the load time is a bit higher but after a few casts, one can learn to latch very quickly.


When I get the new hooks, it will be ready for prime time.  The new hooks will not allow for accidental dumping and ammo can be easily loaded with one hand.


I'm getting there.....after my vacation, I'll get the web site finished and get things moving.


8)


TS

TechStuf,

No criticism of the design intended; the weight is just something to get used to.  Most of my slings are under 30 grams, this one has a fair amount of metal in it.

I did some no-release swings last night, with a golf ball and with a rock in the pouch.  It felt nice; very secure in my hand.  On the other hand, I still think I need to reshape the hook a bit, to get a quicker release when I intend to.

Here is a picture of my copy of your sling.  I had to use a bit of tape to keep the pouch from springing open, the leather is still rather stiff.
http://www.combie.net/dwl/ts_sling_copy_2_sm.jpg

I made the release hook out of 12-gauge bailing wire, which is probably mild steel.  Certainly not as strong as what you are using, and it will probably bend eventually.  But it can easily be replaced.  The cords are my home-made static kernmantle cord (hollow-braid nylon mason's line with seven strands of 50-pound SpiderWire fishing line run up the middle).

those are nice looking slings, the ones that techstuff sort of pioneered with the hook (i am aware also of the nail version, but i don't know which one came first), but i prefer to stick to the basics, because otherwise i sort of feel like i am doing what they did to the bow with modern archery.

that cord is a good idea, and i think i will make some of my own kernmantle cord, but i will use upholstery thread instead (i have no spiderwire  :'( ).  it will provide some extra strength, but it won't be like the ultra thin para cord that you have there.  i would be willing to bet that that cord would have no problem supporting most para troopers anyways, without the extra couple of hundred pounds of support

The "nail version" was designed by Jurek, he drew a picture of it and I made one.  So did Hondero, his comments were later in that topic.  I think this was the first such no-foul design.

TechStuf also designed a no-foul sling, where the stone (or ball bearing) slips between two of the four pouch cords.  It is the 7th and 8th pictures in that post.  I made a sling with that kind of pocket, it works very well for golf balls.

My primary reason for making that cord out of mason's line and fishing line, is that the fishing line has practically NO stretch.  The difference between that and nylon is very perceptible.  But the fishing line does not handle very well by itself, and braiding it!  My braided slings have around four or five crossovers per inch, this stuff is like 15!  Braiding it takes FOREVER!  This way I get the nylon to protect the polyethylene, and I don't have to braid anything.

SpiderWire is just one of the high-density polyethylene fishing lines.  Tuff Line is another brand.  Spectra is a trade name for the fiber itself, a number of brands advertise themselves as using Spectra.  All these are rather expensive, so wait for somebody to hold a sale.  Or look for a sporting goods store that sells it in bulk; I got the 100-pound Spectra line for 15 cents a yard.  I bought 30 yards (US$4.50) and still have not used it all.

Another synthetic fiber that has little stretch is Dacron (which is actually polyester).  1/8-inch Dacron utility cord is only a few cents more expensive than nylon utility cord, and stretches very little. I have several slings using that for the cords.

Your upholstery thread sounds very good also.  Anything that can hold furniture together for years, has a lot of strength.

As for fancy versus simple, I like both.  I have some fancy rigs like the one I just built, just to see how they work.  This one, when I get it tuned right, feels like one that I will continue to use.  But I also have a basic leather-and-paracord sling that I can stuff in my pocket or roll up in a little ball, and it goes with me everywhere.

Dale, that is one decent approximation of my design!  I've used many variations of no foul pocket releases since the eighties....and adapted the dart release hook pictured in the members gallery for use with my shot pockets when I was in my early twenties.  I am now 39.

But I think Yurek would agree with me that which came first is of little importance.....especially compared to the hope that none of our creations comes last!


Your sling should impress all who see it.....and given the challenge our sport faces, whatever reasonable accoutrements that may be implemented to attract our modern minded prospective associates, the better.


And besides, a smooth consistent release at every cast, and high durability are good things.


Again, great work!


And many happy returns!


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TS