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General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> olaus magnus https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1150386644 Message started by slingbadger on Jun 15th, 2006 at 11:50am |
Title: olaus magnus Post by slingbadger on Jun 15th, 2006 at 11:50am
From the Description of the Northern people, by Olaus Magnus.
He describes fustibals being used to fling chunks of red hot iron during the seige of King ChristianII at Vasteras He also says that " pole Slings" were used by the Finns to " drive back the preliminary assaults, then when they are about to contend at close quartersthey defended themselves with the sling stones they keep knotted in their belt." |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by siguy on Jun 15th, 2006 at 2:22pm
that's interesting. sling stones [/i]Knotted[i] in their belts? that must not let you carry a lot of stones
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Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by winkleried on Jun 16th, 2006 at 3:38pm
He could mean carrying sling stones in the folds of thier tunics.
Marc Adkins wrote on Jun 15th, 2006 at 2:22pm:
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Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by slingbadger on Jun 17th, 2006 at 9:49am
Alittle further translation reveals that apparently Christian lost the better part of his army to the hot iron, which " fell down as the hail does"
Also, the Finns had stones the size of a fist, attatched to ropes that they would use to entangle the horsemen's arms or neck, then drag them off. That is, if they just weren't hit in the head in the process. Another onteresting point. The cheif helmet was a helmet with a leather backing, covered in scales of horn or the hooves of caribou. Horned helmets. Sound familiar?? |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by lobohunter on Jun 17th, 2006 at 9:55am Quote:
no but interrested |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by winkleried on Jun 17th, 2006 at 6:21pm
Nice for those of us not up on our nordic history ( and too bleeping lazy to look it up) when was this siege again?
On the helment issue, sounds like they were trying to cheaply equip there soldiers. similar concept to 20th century miltary helments, enough protection against grazes and flying debris but not enough to take a full force direct blow Marc Adkins wrote on Jun 17th, 2006 at 9:49am:
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Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by winkleried on Jun 17th, 2006 at 6:24pm
Forgot to add
Intresting to here about the Finnish Bolos. Ok I know they are not true bolos but a nice little local improvision against a tactical problem. Marc Adkins wrote on Jun 17th, 2006 at 9:49am:
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Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by slingbadger on Jun 18th, 2006 at 12:01pm
A thick enoughpiece of horn can deflect sword blows quite nicely. I've tried it . There was also an example of one dug up in Denmark. ( give me a few days to look through my files)
What it was was sheets of horn, with the grain layed in opposite directioins, like plywood. Very strong. Very light. |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by Mangrove on Apr 13th, 2008 at 5:14am
I might get the original Latin text from a book printed in 1555 (1st Edition) if needed. But here's a woodcut of the siege.
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Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by curious_aardvark on Apr 14th, 2008 at 9:19am
so is a fustibals just a staff sling ?
But it just shows what finnish history shows time and time again - don't pick a fight with finland. :-) |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by winkleried on Apr 14th, 2008 at 1:28pm
To answer both of your questions C_A
Pretty much dead on the money on both. Marc Adkins Curious Aardvark wrote on Apr 14th, 2008 at 9:19am:
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Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by funda_iucunda on Apr 15th, 2008 at 3:04pm
slingbadger,
the part about the Finnish entangling the enemies horses with stones fixed with ropes reminds me to the use of the bola. Can you please give a precise quotation of that text? The stones knotet into the belts might be used as a hand to hand combat weapon. If you put a stone into the (not too small and narrow) pouch of your sling and knot just the release cord and the retention cord together you will get a flexible weapon you can heavily beat with or wrap it around the enemies lance, axe sword, neck or leg for making him falling. funda |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by Mangrove on Apr 16th, 2008 at 7:55am
Again, I can probably get the original latin text if needed from Finnish National Library.
Hirvonen, K., Vilkuna K. 1977. Pohjoisten kansojen historia: Suomea koskevat kuvaukset. Otava, Helsinki: P. 54-55. About sorcery at Hälsingland. Quote:
P. 89. About the Muscovian pirates at the Gulf of Finland. Quote:
P. 91-92. About Finns and their weapons. Quote:
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Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by slingbadger on Apr 16th, 2008 at 9:03am
Funda, give me a day or two
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Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by winkleried on Apr 16th, 2008 at 11:49pm
Ok so what is the Finnish word for staff-Sling and what would the Russian word be???
Marc Adkins Mangrove wrote on Apr 16th, 2008 at 7:55am:
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Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by Ethan on Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:16am winkleried wrote on Apr 16th, 2008 at 11:49pm:
The Finnish is Linko. The Russian is Pratcha. Those are according to the Wiki |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by winkleried on Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:52am
Ethan,Those are the terms for the hand sling, I was loking to see if anybody knew the words in those two languages for staff-sling.
Marc Adkins Ethan wrote on Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:16am:
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Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by Mangrove on Apr 17th, 2008 at 9:52am winkleried wrote on Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:52am:
The Finnish word is sauvalinko. Sauva = staff or a stick, linko = sling. Martti |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by winkleried on Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:58pm
Thanks Mangrove
Marc Adkins Mangrove wrote on Apr 17th, 2008 at 9:52am:
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Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by slingbadger on Apr 17th, 2008 at 1:51pm
OK Olaus Magnus wrote Historia de Gentibus Septentrionalabus in 1555. The battle took place in 1521.
Here is the text, taken from a 1555 edition, Chptr VII But where there were no stones, which was seldom seen, they cast into forts, as forcible as they may, a piece of iron that is glowing red hot, which they put, with a pair of tongs, into the pouch of the sling. For they always have ready vessels like the Roman baths, full of pieces of iron, and putting that into the fire and fitting it into the sling, and casting it against the besieged. They will make such a violent wound and torture, that it can hardly, or never be cured by the help of a physician. Chptr XI About war with the Mucscovites. When they have occasion, they repulse and keep off their assaults with slings like spears ( fustibals) when they come to fight near they defend themselves with stones tied to their girdles thatthey throw at them. |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by Ethan on Apr 17th, 2008 at 3:03pm
Whoops, sorry 'bout that. :-[
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Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by timann on Apr 18th, 2008 at 3:20pm
I am reading and rereading the quote above, (span is ca 15-20 cm), ann it annoys me a little. 4 spans would then be at most 80 cm, well under 3 feet, and when you have tangeled a cavalrymans arm or horses feet, it would not be much rope left for yanking.
But if a span was what it sounds like, outstretched arm to outstretched arm, it would be 150-200 cm, 180 cm for me, then 4 span of rope with a stone in the end would be a more or less sensible weapon. Maybe this was obvious, but I had to say it. timann |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by funda_iucunda on Apr 18th, 2008 at 4:33pm
Slingbadger and Mangrove,
many thanks for the quotations and sources. The information by Olaus Magnus is now very clear to me. They used not bolas but stones with a cord by which they entangled enemies and horses is close hand to hand fight. Like slings and staff slings these are simple and cheap but deadly weapons. funda iucunda |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by Mangrove on Apr 19th, 2008 at 10:29am timann wrote on Apr 18th, 2008 at 3:20pm:
Span, or vaaksa in Finnish, is distance from end of the thump to end of the index finger. My span is about 20 cm. As I don't have the original latin text I can't verify if the text really speaks about span and not, for example, cubit (which is from 45 cm to 60 centimeters). Maybe the text is trying to say if the cavalryman is still standing Finns could yank him down by pulling the rope next to him? :P Martti |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by timann on Apr 19th, 2008 at 1:40pm
Hi, Mangrove. Well, maybe it isn`t so obvious.
I just dismissed the shorter `finger span`, because of the word `yanking`. I figured it would be easyer to handle horses and cavalrymen with some meters of rope instead of centimeters :). But, one of my late aunts had a suitor of Finnish heritage. He was short, powefull, and teached us boys a lot of `practical`stuff, like knives, ropes, crossbows.... if he had trapped you by a few decimeters of rope, you would certainly be in trouble, on a horse or not :D Or is the description more bola-like? Several stones with a rather short rope connecting them... I`ll just wait here and try to learn more of ancient Finnish warfare :) timann |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by Nakki on Apr 21st, 2008 at 3:13pm
What I know about ancient finnish warfare is not lot but there are some tactics that are being used still in Finnish army. We have to remember that Finland is a rather big country compared to it's population. So you can use the land to wear out the enemy. Lots of wilderness; woods, labyrinth like lakes and rivers. Finns have always fought against bigger enemy so the tactics are made against large scale enemy offensives.
Let the enemy come and advance to your own territory. While the enemy attacks retreat defensively, make querilla-like attacks and try to hit the enemy supply line. Try to make the easiest way of the offensive harder. Destroy bridges, burn houses etc. Then choose a place where you make your stand. Finns have always defended narrow places; river crosses and isthmuses for example. Narrow places even the odds. Attacks to the flanks are harder to carry through and it's more man-to-man battle than man-against-battalion. When the enemy is stopped and some what beaten make dearing attacks to the enemy flanks. If possible try to encircle them. Make a 'motti'. Basically attack the enemy in place you know and where the enemys numbers dont matter so much. This seems quite simple but it's really effective. This tactic jumps out in Finnish military history from time to time. First I heard it being used against vikings in 900 AC. Last time it was used in Winter War, Continuation War and Lapland War (II World War). Finnish army still trains this tactic. Sorry if this went too much off topic. |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by timann on Apr 24th, 2008 at 2:31pm
Thanks, Nakki. After reading your post it is even more obvious to me that when the finns made chaos among their enemys, somebody could sneek inn and entangle confused cavalrymen and horses with stones attached to the end of long ropes.
I must try this weapon for myself. My biggest sling stone and a long rope. I saw something similar on Youtube. The Chinese Meteor Hammer. Seemed to be easy... :D timann |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by timann on Jun 11th, 2008 at 4:19pm
I have recently made an improviced meteorhammer, with a good sice sling stone, and a rope with a monkey fist knot.
I tested it, rather carefully. I am rather happy with my old pair of glasses, and my old teeth, thank you ;) It seems to be very dangerous to the user, even more so if the chinese fancy tecniques are attempted. But in desperate times, it appear to be a rather effective weapon to knock or pull cavalrymen to the ground, when it can be done in a sneaky way...from the flanks, ambush, in confused battle... I would not prefer it as a one on one weapon, the danger of knocking myself out, or ensnare myself with the rope, would be to great timann. |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by funda_iucunda on Jun 12th, 2008 at 4:31pm
Do you have a picture of it? Sounds interesting!
funda iucunda |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by timann on Jun 13th, 2008 at 12:04pm
I got a bad picture of the test weapon.
Over in Other Primitive Weapons there is a thread called; Sling converted to melee weapon. There is mentioned monkey fist knot and slungshot. This is it, it can be used for short range clubbing and flailing, but with 5 meters of rope attached, new possibilities appear... timann ![]() |
Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by Kick on Dec 7th, 2021 at 8:20am
Rediscovered this thread and loving it. Those resourceful plucky Finns :D
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Title: Re: olaus magnus Post by Curious Aardvark on Dec 9th, 2021 at 1:37pm
Lol looks like you went right with the staff sling kick :-)
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