Hi there, slingers,
regarding slingshots and precision skills in a historical perspective.

Roman and other ancient armies were usually loaded with skirmishers using slingshots. According to Livius 'History of the Roman Empire', islanders usually made up these units, imported mainly from the Balearic islands and Crete. These people must have made quite a name as slingers. Often slingshot units are simply referred to as 'Balearis' or 'Cretes' and usually both opposing armies deployed them. At least twice the description of these forces becomes very vivid, entertaining and informative regarding slingshots.

First in vol. 28:[37], in the description of Mago's refuge from Gades, (today's Cadiz) Carthage's last stronghold in Spain, during which he fled with his fleet to the Balearics, namely to the smaller island of Pitysa, which about that time said to have had a Punic population. Here Livius remarks the Balearic islanders to be by far the best among all of the then known people in the art of slinging stones, which they were mastering to near perfection. Upon the attempt to enter the harbor of the larger of the Balearic islands (Mallorca), Magos fleet were met by such a dense hail-like storm of stones delivered by slingshots that they had to leave in a hurry.

This certainly demands respect, but then later on it gets even better. In vol. 38:[29], shortly after the defeat of Antioch, during the siege of Same, Cephallania (today's Turkey) where consul M. Fulvius deployed 100 slingshots from Aegium, Patrae and Dyme. There you get a very accurate description of the vicious power of this weapon in the hands of a skilled slinger.

As Livius says, these people used to practice slinging by tradition from very early ages using the round stones found on their beaches in abundance, hurling these far out the sea. Thus, they were able to sling heavier stones further and with greater accuracy than any Balearic people was able to. Their slingshots probably had 3 cords, because Livius furthermore says that - 'Their slingshot didn't have just one (2) ordinary cord as the Balearic slingshots and those used by other people but were made out of three layers hardened by lots of sewing so they didn't bend; the projectile too remained steady during slinging and flew off like it had been shot out from a bow. These slingers were used to practice aiming at small wooden rings and could not only deliver precise shots towards an enemy head but even the part of the face they were aiming at.'

Needless to say that broke Same's resistance and they gave up the town.

Best regards
Gabor Matolay

It´s a pleasure to read your post with those historical references on the sling from Livius. The forum is growing in all the branches of the subject (congratulations Chris) I´m a collector of quotes about the sling, almost an anxious hunter of them and enjoy when I find a new one, which already is more difficult. In fact, I have written a History of the sling where I incorporate a wide corpus of references (all times all places).
It is specially interesting for me the second reference you mention, where it is described how the Achean slings were. I have always had a special interest by knowing how they were, the best slings of the world for accuarcy according to Livius. I even got to investigate something on the subject, but my knowledge of Latin is not too good. The fact is that the subject seems to follow dark and nobody has still kept awake it. In the text of Livius there are some understood that in his days could be clear, but today are not and they require linguistics research. As  for example the one of the Balearic sling made of a single cord, etc. In the forum there are people who seem to handle the Latin, like Chris, and if somebody is interested we could do some research on the subject within the forum. It would be a good contribution to the culture of the sling, worthy to publish itself in other means: a study on the design of the best sling of the world.
I animate you, guys

To Hondero,

I'd love to look at some of the quotes you have gathered. Can we have a taste?

Regarding Livius talking of one cord or string, it is the obvious interpretation of an outsider watching a Balearic type two cord slingshot just after release; - he sees one long string with a pouch in the middle.

About the deployment  of the Achai slingshots, Same offered fierce resistance. The defenders were instantly rebuilding the holes created in the battlement by the siege engines and were not only defending the walls with all possible means, but also made violent fallouts repelling the romans. It was because of this standstill the slingers were deployed as a sort of tactical weapon against the people on the walls. The defendants 'tasted' stones for four days before finally giving in to this treat, as they were running out of people to replace the many wounded and killed on the walls.

Regards Matolay

It's certainly an interesting read for all those wondering about a 3-corded sling historically.  Anyone care to do a bit of follow up research on this source to see if they can dig up any more info about such a sling variety.  It's the first historical reference I've heard about.  

I'm wondering about this quote: "Their slingshot didn't have just one (2) ordinary cord..."  Why use the word "one" and "cord" singular when it's pretty universal to classify a regular sling as two cords?  It just seems wrong to assume they mean two, unless you know something I don't.  Matolay, anything you can add?

Chris

P.S. Welcome Matolay.  I'm looking forward to your future posts.

Well, in my Hungarian translation, Livius clearly says 'one string'. Maybe someone should look into the latin original. I don't expect Livius to know the slingshot firsthand but he certainly could have seen one. The explanation is a bit superficial, he says the Achai slingshots don't have just one 'string' but he does not tell us how many it had. I still think the Balearic slingshot having only one string or cord (with the pouch in the middle) is very well described if sighted from a distance. Possibly there was only one string that went through the pouch?

wrote on Jan 10^th, 2004 at 3:09am:

Hi there, slingers, regarding slingshots and precision skills in a historical perspective. Roman and other ancient armies were usually loaded with skirmishers using slingshots. According to Livius 'History of the Roman Empire', islanders usually made up these units, imported mainly from the Balearic islands and Crete. These people must have made quite a name as slingers. Often slingshot units are simply referred to as 'Balearis' or 'Cretes' and usually both opposing armies deployed them. At least twice the description of these forces becomes very vivid, entertaining and informative regarding slingshots. First in vol. 28:[37], in the description of Mago's refuge from Gades, (today's Cadiz) Carthage's last stronghold in Spain, during which he fled with his fleet to the Balearics, namely to the smaller island of Pitysa, which about that time said to have had a Punic population. Here Livius remarks the Balearic islanders to be by far the best among all of the then known people in the art of slinging stones, which they were mastering to near perfection. Upon the attempt to enter the harbor of the larger of the Balearic islands (Mallorca), Magos fleet were met by such a dense hail-like storm of stones delivered by slingshots that they had to leave in a hurry. This certainly demands respect, but then later on it gets even better. In vol. 38:[29], shortly after the defeat of Antioch, during the siege of Same, Cephallania (today's Turkey) where consul M. Fulvius deployed 100 slingshots from Aegium, Patrae and Dyme. There you get a very accurate description of the vicious power of this weapon in the hands of a skilled slinger. As Livius says, these people used to practice slinging by tradition from very early ages using the round stones found on their beaches in abundance, hurling these far out the sea. Thus, they were able to sling heavier stones further and with greater accuracy than any Balearic people was able to. Their slingshots probably had 3 cords, because Livius furthermore says that - 'Their slingshot didn't have just one (2) ordinary cord as the Balearic slingshots and those used by other people but were made out of three layers hardened by lots of sewing so they didn't bend; the projectile too remained steady during slinging and flew off like it had been shot out from a bow. These slingers were used to practice aiming at small wooden rings and could not only deliver precise shots towards an enemy head but even the part of the face they were aiming at.' Needless to say that broke Same's resistance and they gave up the town. Best regards Gabor Matolay

Although Livius does not mention the number of cords on the Achai slings, it can obviously only be three. The third cord must be the trigger cord. About the one string or cord, it is possible this construction adds to the strength and endurance of the sling. Where does your two cord slings break first after long and heavy use? Without ever having slung, i bet it will break where the cord is attached to the pouch. If the material is leather then the use of just one string must be contributing to the overall strength and durability of the weapon.

Hi Matolay, I see that your schedule to write is concordant with mine. where come you from?.
Well, the quotes on the sling are written in Spanish and it would take some  work to me to translate them suitably since I do not dominate the English very well. In another occasion I can send some interesting one.

As far as the Balearic sling, I think you are right in your last message and that it isn´t so obvious that the description of Livius is the impression of an outsider. In his book he uses previous writings  from anothers authors contemporaries of the events, like Polibius, wich even participated in many battles and knew very well the weapons. His description of the Achaian sling is detailed, saying that it was reinforced by numerous sewings, which reflects a meticulous vision of the weapon and not the superficial vision of an outsider Even an outsider can see two cords tied to a pouch in a sling, I think.  
Strabo describes the Balearic sling saying only that it was woven with hemp and reinforced with horsehair and sinews. It seems to me that the description of Livius indicates exactly that the Balearic sling was a single braid, perhaps with a very narrow pouch or a split in the midle like present Balearic slings.

As far as the Achaian sling, the Latin text says: "Et est non simplicis habenae... but   "triplex scutale, crebis suturis duratum".... = And is not of a single strap, like those of the Baliarics and other nations, but they consist of three "scutale", stiffened by being sewn together... The problem is in the translation of the word "scutale", that it is confused and someone translate like strap of the sling and others like pouche of the sling. In my opinion it means the pouche by its similarity to the form of the shield (scutum). So it would be triple pouche, made of three sewn pieces as it says literally the text , and so it would adopt a shape slightly dished to lodge the projectile and that it did not slide in  the turn around, as continues saying the Latin text, or maybe the sling was done of three straps that were sewn each other at the end to form the widening of the pouch (this is my opinion). In this case the sling would have actually three cords, but in the previous guess no.

As it is seen, the subject is not clear and requires an investigation comparing different Latin texts relative to the sling to see the most usual  meaning of the different words relative to it.

Saludos

Saludos Hondero,

I must say I agree, 'scutale' must be the pouch, in my dictionary it says ‘slingshotskin’ which cannot be other than the pouch. From Livius description it certainly seems like he had the chance to examine the Achai sling firsthand. If we are right about the single strap for the Balearic type slingshot then his description is quite accurate here as well. The fact that he says the Achai sling is not of a single strap points to the presence of the trigger cord in my opinion. That the projectile didn’t slide during turnaround also seems to suggest just that.

Where did you find that description in Strabo? I’d like to check it out in mine.

By the way, I’m from the blue planet called earth!  ;) Partly Araucana, born in the land of the Huns, living amongst the Vikings.

Your english is excellent.

But this link: http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe?scutale says that scutale is a thong.

Servus Gaius_Cornelius

Right you are. Which is it then thong or pouch? Hondero was right too, this needs thourough investigation if someone would like to reconstruct an Achai sling. Perhaps some of these Achai slingshots or at least their toughened pouches/thongs have survived laying hidden in some museum magasine. Egyptian slingshots and even lead pellets from the late period have survived. Heard the other day that the Greek are somewhat left behind when it comes to internet. Only 17% have access but perhaps there are Achai slingshots on display in a museum somewhere - maybe there are even slingers around still?  ::)

Yes, as I said the problem is that there are differents translations of "scutale". My VOX latin dictionary translate it clearly as "Pouch of the sling". And there is not another source to clarify the matter than latin texts, as I´m afraid neither drawings nor archeological slings have been kept. We certainly need a Greek slinguer in the forum   ???.

My reason for writing here was reading Livius. When he described the Achai slings it was the second time he made me wonder about this weapon. I began to search the web on slings and found you guys. Great site full of useful info on the subject.

Since then I've been reading on and find to my amazement yet another very good description of a slingshot. This time it is a new invention (173-171 BC) used againtst the Romans by the Macedon king Perseus.

Hondero check out your latin version at 42[65] it's quite exciting. It was a completely new projectile - a pretty long arrowhead mounted on a short stick with three wings made of spruce at the other end. This awesome thing had two straps on the middle with uneven length and was launched by a slinger.

Does anyone know this weapon and how to sling it?
It did a great damage amongst the Romans it says.

Ah Matolay, devotee of Livius, you have revealed to the forum my most valued secrets on the sling  >:(: the achaian sling and the cestrosfendon. Effectivly I know the passage from Livius about a  fantastic weapon to send darts with a sling and that terrified  the Romans in the macedonian wars. Some days ago Ben (Whipartist) asked for something similar, remembering perhaps an old forum to which several fellows like him, Jimb and I belongued. There I exposed the subject already some years ago. Then I investigated the subject in detail and I got to keep awake the use and construction of the weapon. It works really well and it´s deadly, very powerful. Nevertheless it requires much skill to throw and perhaps for that reason it  didn´t get to become popular. The projectil is a relatively short dart that is sent with a sling equipped with a special pouch and two cords of different length. Using the weapon I lost several darts, but I think there is someone  still someplace.
Go on exploring Livius and other authors, they are a source of wisdom. As for me, you are designate literary adviser of the forum, specialized in clasic languages  ;).

This thread is getting VERY interesting to me.  Please post more on this subject when you have time Hondero.  

                           Ben

Hondero,

It's said wisdom comes from examining the true meaning of words. Your knowledge about ancient weapons is amazing - anyone who cares to read Livius, Plutarch, Strabo, Herodot, Sun Tzu or any of the classics is a friend'o mine. It is a noble thing to keep alive or revive ancient skills. When we try to improve on an old invention like the slingshot our ancestors often seem to have outsmartened us.

The cestrosfendon you describe must have been vicious. What is the approx. weight of those darts, do they spin during flight and what is the average range of such a missile?

Saludos

Matolay,
I ought you and Wiphartist some information about "cestrosfendon". I´m wating to have some quiet time to do it. But at the moment I ask you about Vikings sling, you that lives among them (as you say). There are literary evidences in previous celtic times, in all Euope, but don´t know if Viking culture include the sling among his weapons. It´s an empty page in my sling references  :-/.

Hondero,

Yes, I live among the Danes, and here too slingshots were in use no doubt. Denmark is the cradle of archaeology - no other place on earth have been dug up so extensively as this soil and still more turns up. It was the idea of a Dane to divide the ages into stone- bronze- and Iron Age in the first place and the history of this land goes back as far as 12.500 BC. Man has been present here since just about the time the ice cover had melted after the last ice age.  

The Vikings were not a people as such - it was rather the name of the raids themselves these Danish, Norse and Swedish warriors took part in during the period of 750-1050.  

I am not sure slingshots were in use in combat at this late time in history, but it must surely have been in use by Sheppard’s everywhere. Even 500 years later Don Quixote lost some teeth to one  I am hoping to get answers on this subject from museum sources.

It is thrilling to read Yurek hurls 500 m - that is an awesome distance! But if everybody starts using lead glands there will be an unhealthy amount of bad gastrolites for the dinosaurs to come after we've all gone to mars  

Some of the beauty and simplicity of the slingshot gets lost when we begin to drag bags full of lead glands along just to break records. I think the main reason for using lead was the greater enjury caused on impact on a human or human-sized beast. They hit harder. So keep the lead ammo for the enemy...  



Saludos

Isn't there a map in the article by Manfred Korman?  A map of worldwide sling distribution according to acheological records of the time?  It would be interesting to look at, but I don't think it was too detailed.  I suspect the Vikings were not big sling users as far as warefare is concerned, because they were raiders, as Matolay says.  It would be interesting to find out.  It would be such a treat to find some well preserved slings in Europe.  I suspect conditions there tend toward making them rot more, even than in other places.  

Jurek uses lead glandes because the last record was made with a gland, and the range increase is significant.  Part of the beauty of slings is that they are such simple weapons.  As I said in the other thread, technology has its limits before it looses all its romance.  But I really like the idea of lead glandes, I wish I had time to make some, and space to use them.  They are a historical part of slinging, as are stones.  Of course, stones are the most beautiful projectiles.  It's so much fun searching for good ones along a riverbed or, in odd places.  When I go hiking, I got my pockets full by the time I come back.  Not anymore though.  Now I carry my shepherd's stone bag.  

That cestrosfendon is intriguing me.  I'm thinking about how it might of worked.  I'm looking forward to hearing what you've learned about it Hondero.  

                                         Ben    

Matolay, my friend, don´t worry about the lead glandes Yurek is spreading for all Poland with his powerful throw. Much more lead the Roman left everywhere, and in the numerous wars in all times, and also the shot-rain the hunters make nowadays in the fields. Fortunately there are very few slingers throwing glandes in the world.

Yeah, Jurek stands on one side of Poland and slings clear to the other.  He's our man!  Go for it Jurek!  

                            Ben

Does anyone know about slingshots being used from horseback in historical times?

I have read somewhere that the Magyars should have used slingshots from horseback besides their deadly bows and arrows about the time of their conquest around 800 and that this weapon still had a considerable use in 9th century battles. In that case perhaps the Vikings did use slingshots too.

Interestingly the horses moved to Iceland just about that time have kept their ability to ride 5 different paces - two of which non Icelandic horses have lost all together.

The two forgotten paces - the 'tölt' and the 'pas' must have been present in ancient horses. In Livius you often read about the Romans using the old trick; removing the bridles because the horses are not nearly as scared of riding into the middle of battle as the riders sitting on top of them. :) I have also heard that the use of stirups came with the Huns so the Romans along with the ancient must have been excellent riders.

The 'tölt' pace is especially useful riding long distance as it is the least tiring locomotion for both rider and horse, while the 'pas' pace (pace like a Camel's run - moving two legs on the same side simultaneously) gives the rider the most stabile rapidly moving position from which to aim and throw lances, shoot arrows or - perhaps - sling stones as well.

Now if someone thinks it's impossible - the horse would get hurt - consider the use of a slingshot with a wooden handle of an arms lenght to keep it away from from the horse while turning - something like the handle of a horsewhip. Hondero, is there such slings?

...Boyz take it easy now - don't you start hurling lead glands 1 mile from a motorbike going 160  ;D

I've never heard of slingshots (aka hand catapult) being used like that.  Bows are a much deadlier weapon.  The materials needed for an efficient handheld slingshot weren't readily available in those times.  Only these newer synthetic sling shots have enough power to easily kill small game, but a human (armored)?  humm..

Chris

Gaius_Cornelius, close friend of Livius,

Did he by any chance leave a copy of his complete works with you? It's such a blunder we mortals only have kept the quarter of it. I bet there are more slingshot secrets hidden in the bulk.... :)

Apart from using lead for water pipes, the Romans were pretty clever. Like this consul during the Macedon war making a speech to calm his soldiers before battle during a moon eclipse. He says it is nothing but the earth casting its shadow on the moon so they shouldn't get scared like the enemy does. But hey - this was 120 BC - was this common knowledge at that time?? How well did these guys really know astronomy?

I have my doubts about slingshots being used from horseback too. Some places I've read they did use them, other places that they have no knowledge about slingshots being used in this fashion at all. It must be difficult to deliver a precise shot when in move, but never tell a human something is impossible because he will go ahead and do it. If the target was larger, lets say a horse, stones delivered this way could perhaps cause disturbance among the animals and thereby break up formations, or maybe you could discover hidden units among dense woods in the distance using slings. It is said about the Magyars in early Bysantine sources that they did everything from the saddle, slept, ate, had their conversation and generally felt uncomfortable standing on their short slanting legs on the ground. This taken into consideration perhaps they even slung from the saddle :)

Very interesting your information on horses, Matolay. I´ve not any doubt about the possibility of use the sling from horses, and in fact the sudamericans natives were very skillful throwing bolas with accuracy from them, and not only the three bolas weapon but the single bola or “bola perdida” that is similar in dynamics to sling. Nevertheless I´ve not read anything precise about slingin from horses.
In regard to slings with handle they have been used a lot in all times. From Roman to Middle Age the “fustibalus” was used, though it must require both hands, the same that bow. But it´s more difficult to use from horses that the sling  with horizontal turn, that wouldn´t hurt the animal.
Well, I can not ride, if I could, should  try to sling from it, it has to be a wonderful experience  :)

wrote on Jan 16^th, 2004 at 11:15pm:

The 'tölt' pace is especially useful riding long distance as it is the least tiring locomotion for both rider and horse

Wow, I didn't know about the tolt.  I'll have to look that up.  I know about the camel pace - most of the family Camelidae use it; camels, llamas, vicunas, alpacas, and guanacos - of which all inhabit arid and semi-arid habitats. Most orses don't gravitate towards it, but I've seen a few here and there that use it, especially young horses frisking.  The advantages of the pace is that b/c the hooves on the same side move in unison, it allows the animal to stretch it's gait, making it more efficient for long distances and a slightly smoother, though somewhat swaying, ride.  The disadvantages of the pace is what surprises me that it would be used it battle - it decreases stability and balance for the horse/camel, and decreases their maneuverability.  

I'd be a bit skeptical about slings and horses for the reasons mentioned previous - the tendency to whack the poor horses head, and the difficulty of slinging laterally seems to make it a poor choice for a calvalry weapon.  I've ridden horses a fair portion of my life.  The really big question I'd have for horses and slings though, is not overcoming the throwing part, but the problem of carrying ammo.  A big bag of rocks slung over your shoulder or around your waist, beating up against you or the horse as you go bouncing and careening across the country side would leave a lot of bruises.  Plus the extra weight for the amount of ammo required in battle...  Arrows are a lot lighter.  
:D  

In favor of slinging from a horse though, at a dead run, the horse is usually stretched out flat with it's head lowered, providing a rider with good slinging skills enough space to throw rocks pretty much dead ahead.  And a gallop would add a good 30mph of force to the projectile.  

A sling in the hand at point blank range would even be a pretty deadly instrument on horse back.  You'd probably lose your rock, but in a tight situation you could swing it like a mace w/out letting go of the release end and bash skulls with pretty decent efficiency.

Barak

Barak, you have a good point there – it’s really troublesome to carry that kind of ammo on horseback unless it’s a few pebbles hidden in a tight pocket. The steppes of Asia from where the Magyars are said to have originated is mostly grassland, good for fat cattle but you may ride days before finding usable pebbles to sling, so there is another thing that makes me wonder about too eager historians adding this and that to beautify their kin.

About the ‘pas’ pace, ask any Icelander about this, I definitely recall having read some historical source saying that the horse becomes a better platform for throwing lances or shooting arrows doing this pace, than it does during galloping or trotting. If only I’d remember where I read it  ???

Around Hannibal’s arrival no one could match his Numid horsemen, but the Romans soon adopted their cavalry to be similar. The Numid’s also rode on camel - the riders of these beasts are said to have had 6 feet long swords in order to be able to hit ducking footmen from their high seat.

Hondero, about the bola. Never heard of the non three-stone version yet, you keep amazing me. Unfortunately I know very little about my ancestors in the Araucana family line but I suspect they are – if not the inventors of the bola, - then at least very well known to use it. Perhaps it was the weapon of the unfortunate now extinct Patagonians. As on every continent, the first inhabitants of the land have always gradually been pushed further and further away from their point of entry, by the never ending waves of newcomers, until it was impossible to get further by land. That is why the first settlers of Australia ended up in Tasmania and that is why the first settlers of America were pushed back to Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego.  

wrote on Jan 16^th, 2004 at 5:13pm:

...But if everybody starts using lead glands there will be an unhealthy amount of bad gastrolites for the dinosaurs to come after we've all gone to mars Some of the beauty and simplicity of the slingshot gets lost when we begin to drag bags full of lead glands along just to break records. I think the main reason for using lead was the greater enjury caused on impact on a human or human-sized beast. They hit harder. So keep the lead ammo for the enemy...

 
Matolay,

I respect your care about the environmental contamination by lead. I'm fully conscious of the poisonous properties of lead compouds.
But I wouldn't be afraid that evrybody will "start to drag bags full of lead glands along just to break records" and use them on all sides. First - because the slingers are very small group in the world, second - the most of them prefer to use the stones (me too, exactly like Ben said)), third reason - the bag full of lead glandes is hard to carry, fifth - making them require some skill and unthealthy work, next -  not each potential slinger would be going to break records, next - useing them require a lot secure spot, next - there isn't easy to get lead in markets... etc... etc..

So the potential lead "emission" to eniviroment caused by the slingers seems non-significant relative to other sources, even only, mentioned by Hondero hunting, sport and especially military ammo. But what about industry and others? We should consider that lead not used for making glandes would come back to environment anyway, probably in a much more dangerous form.

I usualy use the stones and ice-balls lately. The glandes were used only two times for experiment. Additionaly I think that investigation of a sling achievements is profitable for the historical knowledge.

So I finally prefer use the lead glandes for the sport records than for the enemy. It is more healthy for people and as result for the dinosaurs too. Anyway they would choose a better climate, probably ;)

Greeting,

Jurek

The bolas or “boleadoras” were a weapon used from American prehistory by the natives of the sudamerican plains. There were boleadoras of one, two and three weights or balls. Given your genealogical line you probably speak some spanish and know that “bola perdida” (the boleadora of a single weight) means lost ball. In many old indigenas establishments were frequently found isolated balls that the Spanish-Argentineans of the times of development of cattle supposed were balls accidentally come off from native boleadoras of three weights, that were those that had been adopted throughout the time by the cow-boys or “gauchos”. But the truth is that the natives used fundamentally boleadoras of one and two weights, except for the unbroken Mapuches of Chile or Araucanos, that used them of three. The bola perdida was a weapon of war that worked by impact, whereas the boleadora of two weights was a hunting weapon that worked coiling itself in the legs of the animals to demolish them. The natives throwed  the boleadora of a weight with great range and precision, and once the horses brought by the Spaniards reproduced in an explosive way in those fertiles meadows, the natives became expert riders who continued throwing their boleadoras from the horse.

Hondero and sometimes “boleador”

Hondero,

Hehe, we shoot simultaneously. The europian group synchronise itself :D

jurek

je je (he he in spanish), yessss...

Matolay, It would make sense that they would use the pace from the perspective that they lived in flat grassland areas.  If it is indeed a less maneuverable gait, it might have been developed for simply because of the straight on attack formations used on even ground and then possibly the horse switched gaits to break away for another attack.  War horses were usually well trained, and its quite possible they simply commanded the horse to pace when they were preparing to shoot since the pace was smoother and gave them better aim.  

Now camel slingers - there's an idea.  Sitting on a hump you have a good 360 degree field of view from high up from which to sling.  Camels aren't quite as agile, but they have bulk, height, and quite amazingly speed.  In America they use to stage camel races and make $$ off the cowboys who thought their horses would outrun the camels.  I would imagine long legs of the camels would definitely give them a long distance advantage in the grass lands.

Bola's - just curious if anyone saw the photo I posted of the bird bolas I made in the "other primitive weapons" page.  I got the idea from "The American Boy's Handy Book" and since we are talking about bola's I'm curious to know it's historical origins, or if it was just developed in colonial America.  My parents have a gorgeous set of bola's from Ecuador (I think) - the three bola variety - which are intricately carved.  I've always been curious as to the material used.  It almost appears like stone, and it's heavy, but the carving makes me wonder if they didn't use the socket joint of a cow or horse b/c it is perfectly round, and the tool required for stone would be difficult for them to obtain I would imagine.

Barak

Jurek,

It was partly a joke  ;D - perhaps some of us won't go to Mars after all :) I've since been told that the WR was made using lead so I understand your efforts and wish you good luck. Still think 500 m is awesome, how far does your stones fly? Wenger Palak dwa bratanki, i do sabli i do sklanki! :)

Barak, seen your bird-bola. How small and cool. :) Where did you get the idea of using 6 cords/weights?
I mean is this a personal invention or a native type for just catching birds? Downsizing sometimes produces beauties - like the miniature bushman bows of the Kalahari. I wonder if that cestrosfendon can be downsized to a normal modern dart size :)

According to my information the bola was around long before the horse arrived in americas. I think it was the perfect weapon to catch nandu's, the SA ostrich.

I got the bird bola idea from a book "the American Boy's Handy Book."  It has all kinds of cool things in it that were traditional for boys a century ago or so.  I've never seen it elsewhere.  Its funny you mention the south american Ostrich.  In PNG they have cassowari which are slightly smaller than an Emu and they are deadly animals - a horney projection on their head, modified quills on their wings, and an elongated talon on their feet.  They have nasty disposition on top of that.  I was thinking when I made them that they would be a great way to take down a charging cassowari or hunt them (they are an important ceremonial food for the local people).

I love the historical animals of the America's.  the idea that there were species of animals here in the millions similar to the African animals is such an amazing concept.  

Barak

Hondero boleador,

Amazing stuff about the lost stone. If I got it right, the natives used two stones and one stone in warfare, not three except for the Araucanas. I don't know much about prehistorical warfare on the pampas. But elsewhere war amongst the natives was very much ritualized and not nearly as bloody as in Europe's history. In Central America war was often controlled by the calendar - in the month of war you had to catch a few enemies for ritual sacrifice and after that the war ended.

To compare with Europe, here too the first month of the year was Martius in the old days, dedicated to the god of war. The name of the war god in northern mythology was Tyr. The importance of the war god is reflected in the order of the weekdays. The sun first (Sunday), second the moon (Monday), third the war god Tyr (Tuesday) only then follows the line of the rest of the gods, Odin, Thor and last in line the goddess Frey. In other words war was dearest next to sun and moon :)

In the North Americas too there was a code of honor amongst the native in war. The French named this strange behavior 'touché' - meaning touch. Opponents would charge against each other occasionally where in stead of clashing the attacker just touched his opponent, while the other showed off his bravery by not moving an inch.

Matolay,

I'm from these who want to stay on the earth, although on the mars I would reach a much better distanses certainly :) Thank you for the well-wishing. I have no way of the retreat since I praised my distaces here, so must bear this burden to the end ;) I'm impatiently waiting for the approval and terms from GWR. I'm afraid the slinging will be the easiest part of that play.

Nice to read here the Polish version of the proverb about the old friendship Polanders and Magyars. Alas, I can't repay in Magyar, it seems too difficult for me :( I would like to add the sling to this proveb too ;D

Jurek

Matolay and Barak,
Following with the bolas I give you some information about the bolas to hunt birds. Its origin is very old and the Incas already used them, mainly the boys to hunt birds of beautifuls colors with whose feathers they decorated his dresses and weapons. The Norteamerican Skimo have used them to hunt migratory birds like geese, being very effective throwed  against the flock. The wings of the bird were entangled in the bola and it fell on the ground. The Skimo´s bola for birds could have even eight weights, although it is necessary to handle such a bolas with much care to  avoid that they are entangled, as you say Barak.

And that´s all guys, I don´t  know anything else on birds bolas  :-/.

Hondero,

again  ;)

Barak,

Yes, the cassowary is an awesome beautiful bird. It won’t use the boney headgear but will deliver a deadly kick. It is usually the male that defends the nesting area and can become very aggressive during nesting time. The kick is that more dangerous as it is delivered with a powerful fore toe with a straight pointed claw, that can easily puncture the lungs of an adult human.

I just saw a program the other day about the singing dogs of PNG. Man, that land is like a time machine, will take you right back to stone-age. Has someone read Nicolaus Maclay’s explorations to virgin PNG for the Russian czar in the 19th century? His mates died off like flies just after arrival on his first expedition and he survived completely alone among the wild Papua for a year until he was picked up. Exciting stuff.

Perhaps the Moa of NZ also could deliver dangerous kicks, those islands were only populated some 700 years ago by the Maori. Probably the famous elephant bird of Madagascar was the most terrifying of all – Sinbad the sailor wasn’t all just adventure, there is some truth hidden in those tales.  ::)

I have also heard stories about a now extinct giant carnivorous bird of SA that used to migrate to the plains of NA to catch bison babies.  ;D

The condor is the biggest flying bird today. A giant turkey vulture – vultures are disliked by most people today but vultures were sacred to the Romans. These birds were regarded as the aristocracy amongst the birds; they did no harm to any crop, did not kill anything, only removed the remains of death and kept the land clean. Augurs used to watch the flight of birds to get their prophecy from the gods and vultures were always regarded as a good sign.

I never knew that... pretty interesting.

Chris

Hondero,

I got a reply, it seems that the Vikings used some slingshots after all. There is evidence they used the Viking version of a trebuchet, the 'blide'.

There is a medieval museum having reconstructed several life size models of this in Jutland.

Useful information about these large slingshots in English can be found at this site:

http://www.middelaldercentret.dk/acta.html

At the site there are some links to nice medieval drawings showing different models in action and even a strange drawing of a Chinese type of slingshot operated by one man.

Saludos

Matolay,
Interesting those Chinese (an others) trebuchets opperatint directly by hand as big staff-sling with a tripod.

Well, going through my sling references, I´ve found one relative to Danish.
It´s a text of Saxo, a remarkable Danish historian that wrote an epic history of the Danish, at the beginning of XII century and in Latin, with the title of Gesta Danorum, mixture of chronicle, myth and legend. In this source Shakespeare was inspired to write the Hamlet. One of the events described is the war against Sweden. In a passage of it the slingers take part. I do not know the history of Denmark, and Saxo uses a chronology based on the names of the kings, not in the dates, so I do not know if the described battle corresponds to the time of the so called Vikings, although I think yes, and in any case it is a testimony of the use of the sling by the Danish of the Middle Age. The passage that I transcribe has fascinated me so much, as the  crudity beats in it and you can feel in a vivid way  the horror and reality of the medieval battles.

“Then the trumpets sounded, and both sides engaged in battle with all their strength. The sky seemed to fall suddenly on the earth, fields and woods to sink into the ground; all things were confounded, and old Chaos come again; heaven and earth mingling in one tempestuous turmoil, and the world rushing to universal ruin. For, when the spear-throwing began, the intolerable clash of arms filled the air with an incredible thunder. The steam of the wounds suddenly hung a mist over the sky, the daylight was hidden under the hail of spears. The help of the slingers was of great use in the battle. But when the missiles had all been flung from hand or engines, they fought with swords or iron-shod maces; and it was now at close quarters that most blood was spilt. Then the sweat streamed down their weary bodies, and the clash of the swords could be heard afar.”

I love epic ¡¡

wow!
Takes my breath away.

uh-huh

awful and beautiful as well

Jurek

Hello amiga Ulrica, have you seen how your ancestors and Danish had fun with the sling? Well, it was another time, today you looks much more  peacefull and charming.

He he YUrek, we both, and in general the EG, always writing at the same time

Hondero,

Thanks, that was a lovely passage. I like Saxo too, have read him several times but did not recall this - I guess I was not focused on slingshots at that time.

There is a part of his work that has a special interest to me. According to Saxo, in the time of king Frode Fredegod there was a marriage between him, the Danish king, and a princess of the Huns, Hanunde, probably the daughter of the Khan.

Furthermore in the Gesta Hungarorum it is said about Attila the Hun that he was "son of Bendeguz, the grandson of the great Nimrod who was brought up in Engadi and is the king of Huns, Medes, Goths and Danes by mercy of God." :)

Anyway, to me certain things point to connection between Danes and Huns. The Huns knew and used runes too, to name one.

This epic story talks about the marriage resulting in three years of relative peace - there off the kings name: Fredegod means PeaceGood, - which finally leads into a war with the Huns. There is a short sequence therein that illustrates the threatening appearance of such an army quite well:

Frode asks Erik whether the fleet of Olimar could match the army of the Huns. Erik answered:

No one, I believe can count it.
The sea does not have room for it,
nor does the land.
The forest, it seemed to me,
was set on fire.
when their campfires lit up the night.

The earth rumbled beneath the slaying of hoofs.
Wagons rolled by like roaring thunder.
So heavy and tight was their mass,
the earth gave way as they moved forward.

Fifteen banners I saw swaying,
by hundred flags each banner was followed.
Along with each flag twenty markers;
with each war sign a warlord followed.

When the king asked him what to put up against so many, Erik advised him to turn around and let the enemy perish by its own mass...!

wrote on Jan 20^th, 2004 at 5:49pm:

Hello amiga Ulrica, have you seen how your ancestors and Danish had fun with the sling? Well, it was another time, today you looks much more  peacefull and charming.

Hondero,

Be careful, when Ulrica master the sling perfect then the ancestors' fight will revive surely ;)

Jurek

wrote on Jan 20^th, 2004 at 5:49pm:

Hello amiga Ulrica, have you seen how your ancestors and Danish had fun with the sling? Well, it was another time, today you looks much more  peacefull and charming.

Ha ha.
Yeah, I reacted on that to, but as you said, it was a long time ago, and no use to be excided ;-)

Well, we don´t throw so many stones, but we do fight with words ;-) Over Windpower and Nuclearpower. The danish people want us to close down our nuclearpowerplants.. but that is really offtopic and don´t belongs here! Just wanted to mention, that the "war" is going on, but on another level ;-)

/ulrica

wrote on Jan 20^th, 2004 at 6:51pm:

Hondero, Be careful, when Ulrica master the sling perfect then the ancestors' fight will revive surely ;) Jurek

Oh yeah.
Watch up for flying stones.. you danish people >:(

;D ;D

Ulrika,

Danes and Swedes have an old love/hate relationship that is quite funny to an outsider like me.

Danes have a saying - 'are you drunk or just Swedish?' It is true that some danish politicians - mostly before elections - use to make popular demands to shut your nuclear power station down, but it seems most of the time they gladly buy the power coming from it. :)

I guess the loss of Skåne, Halland and Blekinge to Sweden still hurts the Danes a bit. Being so tiny a country can give you a complex. :)

As for me, I don't  take sides in this old conflict of yours, nor the one between the Norse and the Swedes.

Danish is an old language - much like the landscape, its resembles a worn down flat stone grinded and polished by the sea. Easy to have in your mouth and you can speak it effortlessly almost without moving your lips. But these qualities also hide its beauties for the superficial listener, so most foreigners don't think much of it. So has Danish singing vitnessed by early Arab travellers been described as close to the sound of howling dogs. :)

So close, and yet so far from the articulate and beautifully singing Swedish language which is a pleasure for the ear and tasty for the mouth as well.
It too has kept many ancient traces, so is the Swedish word for man 'mennisa' the closest to the Sanskrit origin 'manusa' among the Indo-European languages.

Often I hear Danes and Swedes communicate in English, which I find quite sad, (not here though) as both are able to understand each other well. That won't happen with me though, when ever I get the chance to speak it - its just yummy.  ;D

Not to get quite lost from the topic, all this was partly said to avoid getting a stone slung in my head and partly to wish you happy slinging, finally at last but not least to welcome you on the list. :)

The Hungarians - like the Swedes - have kept the ancient Roman salute 'Servus' with that small difference that you have translated it:

Tjenare

Tjenare You too, Matolay

oh what a lovely messages! I really enjoy reading it!
Thank you!

I didn´t know about the saying, but I have the feeling that is the same all over the world; we swedes have a very bad reputation everywhere because we can not drink like normally people... ;-)

Before I write more, I must also tell you, I´m half half danich. My mother´s father is fron denmark. So I have some relativs there. Met them only once, but anyway.
I do have a lot of problems with the language, because it sounds like they all talk with brei in the mouth...  ::)

Yes, beeing a small country can be hard... There you have a point.

You don´t need to fear getting hit by a stone. ;-)
I can not throw so far yet; and I have personally nothing  against the ones who lives in the small country down there ;-)

Thanks again for a lovely written messages!

Ulrica

My comments to this whole thread:

Balearic/Archean slings:

I know of Roman (more later) depictions which show the sling to be a single strap. And I know of Etruscan (earlier) depictions which show the sling to be braided and having a three string pouch. (See also other posts from me.)

Slinging on horse:

Hitting the horse would be dangerous, but people do underhand slinging despite the fact that they could hit themself with the projectile. It is just a matter of training.

I do not think weight of the ammunition is really an issue. Average weight of Roman lead glandes was about 55g and of Greek 35g. A soldier including equipment (saddle, armor, weapons, shield, living equipment) weighed at least 100kg. 100 Greek glandes would have added 3.5% to that. I doubt 100 ancient arrows would have weighed less and they sure needed more space for storage.

Zwiebeltuete