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Message started by Hellfire on Mar 21st, 2006 at 7:33pm

Title: primitive elm bow buidalong- now with better pics
Post by Hellfire on Mar 21st, 2006 at 7:33pm
Here is a thread I started to show people that you can make a nice professional looking well tillered smooth shooting efficient bow with just one or two tools. A hatchet and a pocketknife. I am aiming for maybe 45-65# at 28", with as little set as possible. It will be 6' long, and as wide as the poundage dictates.

The materials are a 1 3/4" diameter red elm sapling. I will be using no measuring tools other than my palm, a piece of twine string to find the center, and how tall I am plus a few inches. The string will be made out of sinew or flax (I'm growing some). This will be purely primitive. If I were out in the woods with few tools like a hatchet and a knife, this is what I would make.


Reasons why to make a long, narrow elm bow from a small diameter stave

1. Elm is very strong in tension, so it can well tolerate a crowned back.

2. A narrow stave can not make a short bow. I made a few of these back then, but they stacked pretty badly, which gave me false weight readings. But- a narrow stave can make a good long bow.

3. A long bow has the advantage of taking less set, of having a smooth draw, and being very accurate. The bows long limbs stabilize it when it shoots.

4. It is easy to make a fairly heavy bow when it is fairly long and at least 1 3/8" wide. I have made 70# bows of this dimension with stronger wood like hophornbeam.

5. On top of that, they are pretty and nice to look at, and the eastern woodland indians made bows man-height and out of common woods like hickory, locust, and elm. However they did use osage, and sometimes made bows as short as 50".



Here is an example of the kind of tiller I would like this to have.




English I'm really curious as to how you make bows in particular. I would like to see some pics of bows you have made to learn from them maybe. I hope you like this, I asked you a lot of questions in the beginning.



Here is it where I cut it. Looks like a lot of softwoods, but if you dig around on our property a bit more there is actually one heck of a lot of elm saplings. Right here is by that little creek.




Here I am debarking it with a hatchet.



Here I am working down the belly. Looks real pretty doesnt it?



Here is floor tiller. Notice my well "organized"  shop area. Hey, theres a TV there!


It will take two weeks to dry. If I was in a survival situation I would definitely take it inside at night and hang it over the campfire on a string to quick season, but I'm not in a hurry. Hope you like the pics so far. I will keep this updated probably every day. I hope this might help some people starting out.

Title: Re: Red Elm stave bow buidalong:)
Post by CanDo on Mar 21st, 2006 at 9:24pm
Looking good. I probably should have made a buildalong out of my current bow project, but just as well. Good luck.

Title: Re: Red Elm stave bow buidalong:)
Post by Taiki on Mar 22nd, 2006 at 11:16am
yeah keep us posted i Really like this  :o ;D

Title: Re: Red Elm stave bow buidalong:)
Post by kkriegg on Mar 23rd, 2006 at 8:45pm
Nice bow. Hope it goes well.

You look alot like a guy I used to know.

Title: Re: Red Elm stave bow buidalong:)
Post by Hellfire on Mar 26th, 2006 at 9:44pm
will get some pics up tomorrow night. The camera needs batteries or another memory card or something. Have it tillered to about 15" and 45#. Tips narrowed and nocks cut.

Title: Re: Red Elm stave bow buidalong:)
Post by Arkanii on Mar 27th, 2006 at 12:59pm
Sounds good so far.  i can't wait to see it.

Title: Re: Red Elm stave bow buidalong:)
Post by Hellfire on Mar 28th, 2006 at 11:05pm
ok here are the pics. They are a day late (sorry) but I had to get going over to a surprise party. Sorry I couldnt resize them at the moment they may be pretty big pictures.

Here is my chunk of elm, viewed from the top side.


Here is the tip. Note the pencil lines I am using to narrow it with.


Narrowed on one side.


All done ;)


Here is the (previously) wide handle.


Here it is narrowed. It fits very well. I never did like wide handles.


Here is my arsenal of tools. Very basic for making bows.


See, a regular knife can make a fair drawknife, if you pad your hand with leather so you wont get cut on the blade.


Will get some tiller pics in a few days, when it is better seasoned.

Title: Re: Red Elm stave bow buidalong:)
Post by Roy on Mar 29th, 2006 at 7:01am
good stuff,  Do you use a heat box to dry?

Title: Re: Red Elm stave bow buidalong:)
Post by Hellfire on Mar 29th, 2006 at 5:25pm
no I didnt use a heat box. You dont really need one.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong (pics)
Post by siguy on Mar 31st, 2006 at 9:46pm
sortof off topic, but i put my staves in the attick to dry in the summer.  it is effectively a heat box, getting very hot during the day.  anyways, nice bow so far.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong (pics)
Post by Roy on Mar 31st, 2006 at 10:41pm
I made one up that uses light bulbs so I could drop the moister content.  Here where I live the average content for dried wood it around 13% and I like to get it down to 7 or 8%, gives me a little more zip and less string follow.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong (pics)
Post by Hellfire on Apr 3rd, 2006 at 5:12pm
On the basement floor, we have floor heat running through the concrete, so that raises the floor temperature, so I suppose that helps dry it.

Ok. it is April 3. I cut it down and roughed it out on March 21st. So it has been a little less than two weeks. I think it is seasoned now, so I will proceed to tiller it. Will get pics up tonight. Going for about fifty five pounds.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong (pics)
Post by CanDo on Apr 3rd, 2006 at 8:11pm
cool, i'm looking forward to those pics. how do you guys find out the moisture content of the wood? how important is it to bowyering (all that I really know is that green wood won't last as long)?


Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong (pics)
Post by Arkanii on Apr 4th, 2006 at 5:08am
It is pretty important.  People use a moisture meter but there may be a more traditional way of finding it out but I have no idea what it is.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong (pics)
Post by Roy on Apr 4th, 2006 at 7:27am
A lot of bowyers have made enough bows that they know when the bow is dry enough, some do it by weight, and others like me have freinds with moister meters ;D.  A green bow will last a long time, it just loses a lot of its zip.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong (pics)
Post by Hellfire on Apr 5th, 2006 at 5:09pm
Green wood is weaker than seasoned wood, and it takes an awful lot of set.  I couldnt get pics up the other day, and will try to soon.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong (pics)
Post by english on Apr 6th, 2006 at 11:00am
Moisture is an important factor.  However, you can begin to make your bow before the stave has fully dried.  That is how native Americans did it, and most "primitive" societies in the world.  Also, I'd like to make the point that most native bows were made from small diameter stuff - not the big logs used today, especially on the plains, where wood was a commodity that you didn't waste.  So you can use green wood of around 3 inches diameter, start making your bow, and once it's finished, wait around 4-6 weeks and your bow should be ready, depending on weather conditions and where you keep it.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong (pics)
Post by Hellfire on Apr 12th, 2006 at 9:18pm
I am very sad to say that the crown and all of the dips and kinks really interfered with thickness tapering of this elm bow. I may or may not have made a fairly severe hinge about midlimb on one bow. Maybe its just a kink and maybe its a hinge. Its not easy to notice but it seems to take more set than it ought. I will leave it somewhere nice and dry for a couple more days, maybe its just a little green. Am working on another bow like it.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong (pics)
Post by Hellfire on Apr 19th, 2006 at 8:41pm
Yep. Made a hinge. Pretty bad one too. I will shorten the bow about 4" (its about 72" long), and lower the weight to about 45# and will re tiller, and move the handle down two inches. Will have to make a new string, but thats not the most of my troubles.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong (pics)
Post by Jeffrey on Apr 23rd, 2006 at 10:56pm
Red elm eh? How do you like elm, uh, say...compared to osage?

Jeffrey
OLDE TYME SPORTS LINK

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong (pics)
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Apr 26th, 2006 at 10:34pm
I was makeing a short bow, and it was comeing along great. BUT i let my draw knife get dull, took a big chunk out of it. when the bows done itll have about 25 pounds of pull ::)

Ill give it to my little brother.  :)

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong (pics)
Post by imhellfire on Apr 27th, 2006 at 8:22pm
making good progress on it. i'm on the schools computers so i cant login. had to stay after school- long story.

i shortened the bow to about 66", and its about 1 3/8" wide. I'm going for about 45# at 28". I have it most of the way tillered. So far only 1" of set. Its looking to be a nice pretty bow. I'm going to finish it just like Redhorse does. You guys will probably think  its gross but it works fine. You can also use cow pi$$ for finish. They used to use it to finish gunstocks around the 1850's.


http://www.bahnhofbredband.se/~wb304054/varnish.html

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong (pics)
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Apr 28th, 2006 at 10:58pm
hmm cool :)

the bow has alot more power then what i first thought. Man is it a twisty bow, Shame i let my little brother borrow the camera I wont get it back for a while :-/

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by Hellfire on May 1st, 2006 at 9:22pm
It is about 50# at 28". It has taken about 1 1/2" of set, and when it relaxes a while it loses a lot of it. It is 66" long, 1 3/8" wide, 1/2" tips, and the string is dacron. I am working on a sinew string right now, but I might use milkweed instead as it is easier to use.






The lower limb is shorter. It has about 3/4" of positive tiller.




Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by CanDo on May 1st, 2006 at 9:32pm
not bad, I think the asymetricalness is kind of cool.

I have a question for you (or anyone else who may answer):
One of the bows that I recently completed had taken an inch of set. Unhappy with this, I steam bent it flat, and am refinishing it. How do I minimize the amount of set that it will take? Should I construct a heatbox for it, then immediately seal it?

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by Hellfire on May 1st, 2006 at 10:29pm
not bad, I think the asymetricalness is kind of cool.

I have a question for you (or anyone else who may answer):
One of the bows that I recently completed had taken an inch of set. Unhappy with this, I steam bent it flat, and am refinishing it. How do I minimize the amount of set that it will take? Should I construct a heatbox for it, then immediately seal it?



If your bow is medium weight, 66-72" long, and medium width ( from about 1 1/2 to 2" wide), then 1" of set is pretty good. If it is a wide bow, or low weight (40# or less), then that is acceptable. Steaming it into straightness wont do anything, as the set will come back. If you steamed it into maybe 2.5" of reflex and then toasted the belly with a heat gun you could probably get a decent flightbow, but there is a bunch of variables to judge, so if you would post weight, dimensions, draw length and a pic of the profile/tiller, and what wood type,  then that would be great, it would be way easier to judge.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by siguy on May 2nd, 2006 at 3:10pm
asymetrical bows are awesome.  you know the archers in japan had bamboo bows that were up to 7 or 8 feet long?  you can bet those were way asymetrical.  looks like a great bow.

do you make your own arrows as well, or do you use modern arrows?

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by Hellfire on May 2nd, 2006 at 7:37pm
I make my own arrows, mostly out of pine shafts I planed out and goose feathers, but I have tried out some indian designs, like the two feather fletch. Having some luck with that, but I'm mostly sticking with three fletches.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by lobohunter on May 2nd, 2006 at 7:41pm
nice work

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by CanDo on May 2nd, 2006 at 7:52pm
I'll get some info and pics up ASAP (saturday most likely), thanks for the consideration :)

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by Brainkrieg on May 6th, 2006 at 8:51pm
That's one sweet bow, Hellfire. I think I'll go over to your house and take it.
You friend
-Brainkrieg

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 8th, 2006 at 8:07pm







what do you think? I dont know the weight yet but its pretty strong

:)

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by siguy on May 8th, 2006 at 8:08pm
looks good.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 8th, 2006 at 8:10pm
thanks..Think its slingworthey? ;D

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by siguy on May 8th, 2006 at 8:20pm
definately!

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by CanDo on May 8th, 2006 at 8:27pm
It certianly looks very cool
What method are you using to draw it back?! Do you shoot with it like that (fingers on the left side of the string)? Have I been doing it wrong my whole life?

Oh, and Hellfire, sorry about not being able to get those pics up. I've been wicked busy, hopefully soon.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 8th, 2006 at 8:56pm
I was always tought to draw two fingerd with my righthand drawing the string pointer and middle finger on the right hand side of the bow.

Im a horrid archer, maybe im doing it wrong ;D

My cross bow is makeing me mad..It shoots fine one day then the next (when i have a crowd to watch ::) ) it shoots like crap zinging clear off to the right :-/


Maybe i could get a video up (found my camera dylan will never see it) and you guys could give me a suggestion of what's going wrong...


by the way where is ben? I dug that vest out of winter storage just for him ;)

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by english on May 13th, 2006 at 5:54am
I don't want to alarm you or make you feel bad, but you have a possible hinge on the bottom limb, about a fist and a half below your hand.  Check it out.  Top limb looks fine, but the bottom limb is too weak, I think, and appears to have the hinge I mentioned.

Quote:
I was always tought to draw two fingerd with my righthand drawing the string pointer and middle finger on the right hand side of the bow.  

Im a horrid archer, maybe im doing it wrong  

My cross bow is makeing me mad..It shoots fine one day then the next (when i have a crowd to watch  ) it shoots like crap zinging clear off to the right  


Maybe i could get a video up (found my camera dylan will never see it) and you guys could give me a suggestion of what's going wrong...


by the way where is ben? I dug that vest out of winter storage just for him  
 I think the crossbow problem is easily solved. I expect, although I don't know, that you have been drawing the string from a little left of centre.  Make sure that every time you draw a crossbow, you draw the exact centre of the string back to the notch, or else the bolt will veer off in one direction or another.  Another problem could also be the seating of the bolt in the groove.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 13th, 2006 at 9:45pm
Oh i see that hinge any way to fix it? Maybe wrap some sinew around it or something.

but othere then that hows my tiller?

Well i try to draw and load the cross bow the same time each time but that could be my problem. There is a hump in the middle of my groove that makes the bolt sit unevenly but i drilled the hold for the strings that hold the bow way too close to the groove so i cant file that down any more :-/
Im makeing a few new crossbows now that im starting to get OK at bowmakeing I have learned alot from my mistakes :)

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by english on May 14th, 2006 at 6:17am
Try a crossbow with a slightly longer draw.  The principles of bowmaking are easier to see in a longer bow.
 I don't unfortunately see a way of fixing that hinge, unless you don't mind a very low-powered bow.  Sorry.  But at least you have learnt, and the rest of the tiller looks good.  Try not to be gung-ho with the draw knife!
 Anyway, good luck with it all.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by imhellfire on May 14th, 2006 at 8:11am
DtB, I suggest you just make a new bow. Also you are drawing it backwards, make sure you rotate your wrist about 180 degrees from where is presently is and shoot split finger draw. You can use two fingers but Iwould suggest you use three. Good luck.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 14th, 2006 at 9:59am
I tryed useing three but i never had any luck with it :-/ Ill need some more wood to make a new bow, fortunetly i found a place to cut lots of locust ;D

nows a bad time to cut right? oh well it will just take longer to dry

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by Hellfire on May 15th, 2006 at 5:07pm

wrote on May 14th, 2006 at 9:59am:
I tryed useing three but i never had any luck with it :-/ Ill need some more wood to make a new bow, fortunetly i found a place to cut lots of locust ;D

nows a bad time to cut right? oh well it will just take longer to dry



I suggest getting into the habit of shooting with two or three fingers, and the right way. Any other way would likely lead to inconsistant shooting. Maybe all you need is a finger tab.

You can cut any bow wood on earth, at any time of the year. I have no idea where the dumb rumor started where (presumably) the Indians "knew" that wood was best cut in the winter. This is all crap. The only thing alive in a tree is the inner bark. That is all. All of the wood inside of the tree is dead, and as long as you cut only live wood you should be ok.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by Dale on May 15th, 2006 at 8:01pm
Hmmm ... guys, I just had a look through this thread, and I thought about how Douglas_the_Black holds his bow, and I think I have a reasonable reason for holding your hand backward like that.

If you hold your string hand with palm toward your face, and if you have a moustache, there is a chance, however slim, that you will rip said facial hair off when you release...

If you hold the string as DTB does, the back of your hand is against your face and you won't have that problem.

So much for thought experiments, I'm going to have to dig out a bow and see if there is any other advantage to DTB's way.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by english on May 17th, 2006 at 3:26pm
It looks actually like he's drawing the bow normally.  I think the way the photo has been shot, and the lighting, that make it looks different.  I could be wrong.
 I don't think there is any advantage to drawing in that way.  The muscles and bones that you rely on would be unnaturally twisted, and I'm sure it could get quite painful.  There are also no accounts of that style being used anywhere.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by Dale on May 17th, 2006 at 4:04pm
English,
I looked again at DTB's photos.  I do believe you are right, my friend.  Douglas is probably laughing his head off at my sober pontificating about something he isn't even doing...

But I still intend to find my bow, and see if it would work and if there is any excess strain on my arm.  I would note that the position of the right hand and arm, is not that different from the starting stance for a Greek underhand cast (David Taylor's videos, or see any post by Hondero, his avatar shows the position).

Or maybe I am just trying to keep from admitting I am an idiot.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 17th, 2006 at 7:13pm
haha the pic even had me fooled for a little while.  ;D I have my palm faceing me, and the string is way far away from my cheek :)

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by Brainkrieg on May 18th, 2006 at 5:09pm
DtB, what kind of arrows do you use?

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 18th, 2006 at 8:07pm
I get some rose wood that are growing stright and tall and cut that. I string that up and let it dry.

I hear that medevial people would split wood like ceder and whatnot then shave that down to make shafts. I might try that some day.

Title: Re: primitive elm longbow buidalong almost done no
Post by english on May 21st, 2006 at 10:48am
Most people in the middle ages used hardwood shafts.  Ash was apparently preferred.

Title: Re: primitive elm bow buidalong- now with better p
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 23rd, 2006 at 8:45pm
I have a description of how to do that but i cant make heads or tails of it. The meathod was looked at with some distane as an indean wrote it. He calls that method of arrow making "White mans way to make an arrow by reaching around his elbow to scratch his ass" ;D

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