Since this is a board for primitive weaponry, especially the sling and use of the weapon...I was thinking about the primitivism movement, what are people's views on it?

Is the abandonment of Industrial and Technological Capitalism a good thing or can it lead down dangerous paths?

western civilisation means that no-one need be short of food, shelter, clean water, or the chance of education, in theory at least.  primitive skills are an interesting hobby, or as a back-up in an emergency. but who would swap an easy life for a hard one if they didn't have to?
sv

You know, if I thought for a second that I had the skills neccesary to survive or thrive in a primitive world, and someone were to offer me the opportunity to leave this world and live in a more primitive environ, I would in a second. Primitivism is different things for different people. For some it's an escape. For some, it's a way to touch the world of prehistoric man across time from our own. For some, it's just a neat hobby. for me, its a way of life that we will perhaps never fully regain, a state now lost to us that some of us still remember, deep and away, and still dream of retaining. Some of us, mayhaps, more than others ;) For me, it's a way of keeping the primitive fire burning inside myself. It's a way for me to be myself, not what modern society wants me to be, or thinks I should. It's a way of keeping the old ways alive. It's a way of Right Relationship, and a way of True Being.

I agree with both of you! Honestly, I would choose the primitive life before the "civilized", based purely on my need to nurture the basic bottom lines of my humanity. For me, in order to feel like a person, I need to learn what it is that makes me such.

the thing is, even contemplating a return to primitivism is a luxury. and no-one thrived or thrives in a primitive state. at best you survive. you won't have a home, just a shelter. you won't be slinging for relaxation, but to avoid starvation. there would be dozens of animals that could kill you, and hundreds of diseases. too much rain, not enough rain. no soap, no pain relief, no anitseptics, no travel, and a life of superstition, omens, signs and ignorance.
you can contemplate primitivism as desirable but it's a game. cities and agriculture make the difference between a risky life of constant toil and one of comfort and safety.
mammothunter, i would speculate that if someone who actually had to hunt mammoths were transported to the here and now he would think he was in utopia.
he wouldn't have imagined unlimited quantities of food, inert and prepared, on shelves as far as the eye can see. mcdonalds may be the symbol of capitalistic evil, but a big mac doesn't weigh five tons and try to kill you, which is a step in the right direction.
the skills of primiitve man are interesting as a hobby, and arguably should be at least studied, in case the individual finds himself trying to survive after a disaster. but to wish to return to a hand-to-mouth existence when comfortable cities still shelter us is illogical.
hot water, tv and science  or tapeworms, ghosts, and scratching a living.
sv

It depends on what you mean by primitive.  My definition is that it is using all available materials that are in nature to survive. In that case, going truly primitive is impossible, seeing how civilized man has left his mark on this earth.

im for civilization, as long as they get rid of thos crazy PETA people.

civilisation is a friendly mask on the iron face of our indifferent planet. if mankind falls from civilisation, it won't take long for the jungle to reclaim our works.  
what's wrong with PETA? why be cruel when we can be kind?
sv

I dont think primitive life is ignorance ridden in the least!
Cities arent comfortable! Theyre cesspools of compact disease.

" he wouldn't have imagined unlimited quantities of food, inert and prepared, on shelves as far as the eye can see. mcdonalds may be the symbol of capitalistic evil, but a big mac doesn't weigh five tons and try to kill you, which is a step in the right direction. " Unfortunately, even for many "civilized" city dwellers, unlimited quanities of food still isnt accessible.....

Personally for me, I dont want a house to live in, I dont want money, I dont want to buy medicated, processed, packaged meat with tonnes of preservatives and chemicals in it...I dont want carpeted floor and insulated walls. I want to journey, be a wayfarer only moving from one post to the next because my hunger moves me to where the food is. I want to know what it really feels like to be a human and ultimately an animal on earth. I want to exist on my very base instincts of survival and humanity.

In this supposedly "comfy" "cozy" "civilized" society, I feel empty. I dont feel comfy, I dont have lots of money, I dont feel like Im living in the confines of protection. I feel like Im stupid, I know almost NOTHING of nature and our relationship to it because I cant get close.

And I'd kill myself before I lived in a city.

I would love to live like a primative man. But i have a question for everyone. Where would you do it where you couldn't get in to trouble for hunting out of season or tespassing on someone elses land? There are very few places left in the usa. I know you might be able to in alsaska or canada, but what about a normal climate where surivival would be a little easlier. I still love watching jermiay jonson wish i had been born two centeries ago.

you converse by computer, ergo you live in a house. i guess you don't live on food that you catch or gather.
i agree that "primitive" doesn't equal "ignorant" because it takes intelligence to survive in the wild. and i also agree that as civilised men we can feel lost and empty. we are animals, and we are domesticated, fat and lazy compared with our ancestors. however, we are inestimably better off, because we don't HAVE to be so, we have a choice. i don't live in a city either, but "civilisation" equals "civil" equals "polis" equals "polite" equals "police" equals a reasonably law-abiding, safe environment. look at the greeks in their city-states, and how much we owe their  legacy of democracy, medicine, mathematics and physics! this is the best time in history to be alive. i can buy a motor-car for a week's wages and go where i want, i can download any information at the click of a button, i don't have to believe what i'm told, or submit to someone just because they have more money and more men than i have. i can work for who i want, say what i want, get cured if i fall sick, and eat until i'm full. there are no wolves or mammoths to kill me, and i don't go in fear of gods or demons. i can light a fire with a 50 cent lighter, i cut with a steel knife, i can shoot with a fibreglass bow that will never break. i can extend the hand of friendship to whomever i choose, even you at the other side of the world. i can illuminate the darkness of superstitious fear, i can ridicule my leaders without being punished, i can fly round the planet in 2 days. i don't get rickets or scurvy thanks to plentiful fresh food.  my children are healthy and well-nourished, my wife has lost no infants and hasn't perished in child-birth.    
i didn't die when i had appendicitis, and i have glasses to correct my vision, a defect that would kill me if i had to hunt for food.
no my friend, we are domseticated and cosseted in a machine which is dedicated to keeping us alive in a hostile universe. most of the bushmen of the kalahari live in houses now, because there is no real choice.
the american indians once fought hard to preserve their lifestyle; now that they are free citizens, how many  choose to endure the rigours of stone-age existence?
sv

wrote on Oct 29^th, 2005 at 8:04pm:

I dont think primitive life is ignorance ridden in the least! Cities arent comfortable! Theyre cesspools of compact disease. " he wouldn't have imagined unlimited quantities of food, inert and prepared, on shelves as far as the eye can see. mcdonalds may be the symbol of capitalistic evil, but a big mac doesn't weigh five tons and try to kill you, which is a step in the right direction. " Unfortunately, even for many "civilized" city dwellers, unlimited quanities of food still isnt accessible..... Personally for me, I dont want a house to live in, I dont want money, I dont want to buy medicated, processed, packaged meat with tonnes of preservatives and chemicals in it...I dont want carpeted floor and insulated walls. I want to journey, be a wayfarer only moving from one post to the next because my hunger moves me to where the food is. I want to know what it really feels like to be a human and ultimately an animal on earth. I want to exist on my very base instincts of survival and humanity. In this supposedly "comfy" "cozy" "civilized" society, I feel empty. I dont feel comfy, I dont have lots of money, I dont feel like Im living in the confines of protection. I feel like Im stupid, I know almost NOTHING of nature and our relationship to it because I cant get close. And I'd kill myself before I lived in a city.

  Fine then. It is your choice to live as primitively as you want. Go and pursue the  primitive and brutal life you crave.  You will live 20 more years at the most, and will be shunned and forgotten by society.  
  You will never be satisfied by primitive living because you know of the comforts of the modern world, and when you are cold, hungry, and wet, modern food and shelter will look appealing. 

if you "don't want money" please send it to me; you won't need it because you'll be able to do what the tribes in the cameroons did - sell one of your daughters for marriage in exchange for an axe-head, salt, and a goat.
man might return to primitivism following a cataclysmic disaster - until then, only a masochist would swap a comfortable life of leisure for one of hardship..  
if you feel empty i suggest that you look at religion or philosophy, the traditional means by which life is given some kind of meaning.
primitive life isn't "dances with wolves" -  it's more like "f***ing with death"

PS: here's a link to someone who can help you survive with equanimity in a civilised environment. if you want you can make a firedrill, AND have a bath later.
http://www.geocities.com/khs10uk/enchiridion.htm

sv

I am in terms of aesthetic artistic temperment and lifestyle a minimalist. That is not the same as someone who wants a purposely primitive lifestyle, but it as some similarities. I still need my PC, though :P

Uhhh, NOT in the US...ANYWHERE.

Canada has LOTS of open space!! We have few people living in a massively wide space, and the climate isnt really that harsh in most parts...No one would go to Ellesmere Islands to try and live primitively. They would go to somewhere more like.....Newfoundland. Its perfect, you even have free access to large caves in the hills and bountiful hunting.

there are tribes of aborigenes in australia who have gone back to their old lifestle. What they can remember of it.

Personally I could use a bit of primitive as a holiday, but full time ?
No way. I like electricity and medicine and food :-)
And did primitives have chocolate ? NO. So sod 'em :-)
lol
it's a nice ideal but as a way of life it sucks.

Quote:

They would go to somewhere more like.....Newfoundland.

would? why?

sv

Oh yeah!What happens when one gets appendicitis in the wild...... :o

I agree with SMUDGE,because we already knew the comfort of the modern life,we won't be satisfied by the primitive life. :-/It would be miserable. :-/

Honestly ,  I don't like this society.We human are too dependant on the society to live.I have to study hard in order to get a job.I'm still studying.Why not learn how to hunt animals for food.

But,because I already knew the comfort of the modern life,it would be miserable to live in the wild.

Living primitive! I have lost site of what that really means I mean if I build My own hydro gen from scrap. Is electricty o.k If I have a hidden garden in the wilderness of oregon with cabbage, carrots, garlic and  potatos is that primative. I understand where Gun is coming from beleive me Gun up in the north west you can loose cilvation but alas. the seasons for hunting are still present. only kill the kings deer when he says so.!
not to mention that sometimes you have to pay to enter the king's forest

I agree living alone in the wild would be hard, but if you had a sort of group system tribe it wouldnt be so hard...
And...when I go to Newfoundland, we dont buy our food...We only eat what we've hunted and....we dont gather but we eat what we grow ourselves.

I would personally go to someplace like Newfoundland because it would be easy to live in the wild....there is abundant and accessible holistic medicines and many places like caves, safe from the brutality of nature and weather to live in peace..The weather is mild unless you live on the shore, by the ocean and if you live in a city it can be dangerous. Living in the city is harder than living in the country, sometimes snowbanks get up to 12 feet high on the roads.The people where I go are already pretty old fashioned themselves and are also rely strongly on those in their communities...they build their own homes out of what theyve salvaged on their own with no money spent....they hunt and grow their own food and most dont have to pay taxes on their homes..
The only problem is that in the modern age, it gets quite hard. The more modern people, the government and the Americans can kick them off their properties because they didnt buy the land and own no deeds...basically squaters rights.

And, honestly...being shunned by society wouldnt bother many people a bit. I spend most of my times in the wild with animals anyway. I never see anyone outside of school and then, Im forced to see these people against my will.

But I will admit.. I will miss metal music.

How about you go to Newfoundland and live in a cave, and write all of your thoughts on the walls of the cave as long as you have your sight and your fingers.  Then I'll adapt a movie script version of your experiences and voila! a new compelling motion picture about the human fight for survival!

Quote:

But I will admit.. I will miss metal music.

Amen to that  ;D

By the way, you won't miss metal music, you'll probably miss anti-diarrhea medicine and antibiotics.

well maybe would should just stick to primitve camping for the week :)

metal? come one rock n roll! ;D

Sludge, why would I miss something Ive never used or wanted to. I prefer to use holistic medicines anyway. I've only even used normal otc pills once, when I got environmental poisoning from coming back to old filthy technologically polluted Ontario..heh, go figure.

You wont change my mind as much as I will change yours on our differing views of the subject. So please, stop acting like you will somehow change it. Oh, and I'll be seeing you in about 20 years about that movie. I want a 30,000 BC type plot...Something in black and white with some deadly dinosaurs and an ill-mannered man from another tribe. Or maybe a Quest for Fire theme....That would be a good one!

So instead of becoming defensive, just discuss the issue. My opinion is mine, yours is yours and lets leave it at that.

Nah, metal man! I would miss my folk metal and viking metal. No more "Odin Owns Ye All" would make me sad.
;)

Bjarn - I think you've missed the point of 'discussion' or arguing as I like to call it :-)
The entire point of having an argument is that you are trying to change the other persons opinion :-)
That's the whole fun of it.
Obviously the better the arguer the more you believe it was your idea in the first place. So while someone just plain telling you you're wrong is still arguing - it's not very good arguing and should be treated as such. But by entering into discussion on a subject you are effectively soliciting someone elses point of view and therefore shouldn't really whinge when they argue back at you :-)
(can you tell I'm currently avoiding work lol)

As for missing metal - take an mp3 player and a solar powered battery charger - the entire manowar back catalogue will fit onto 1gb (including the 2 live double albums). You could always claim it was a found artifact. Primitives used tools, so why not use a modern tool for music :-)

wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 9:07am:

As for missing metal - take an mp3 player and a solar powered battery charger - the entire manowar back catalogue will fit onto 1gb (including the 2 live double albums). You could always claim it was a found artifact. Primitives used tools, so why not use a modern tool for music :-)

They're not touring again until the spring. Maybe you could convince the band that a few months in the bush is just what the doctor ordered. Of course, it might soften 'em up too much, and I'm not sure that "The Dawn Of Battle" sounds the same played on wooden flutes and bongos... Oh, and I'm only posing as a metal guy, I'm afraid I wouldn't know what it sounds like played on screaming metal guitar and cymbals either :(

Matthias

There are people who have gone primative and have thrived. One is Sylvan Hart, who lived for nearly 50 years on the Salmon river in Idaho. He did everything there, from hunting, to actually creating and rifling his own gun barrels. There is a book on his life called " The Last of the Mountain Men" by Harold Petersen
 There is another book called " The Last American Man", which chronicles a modern day primative living in North Carolina. The Old Ways still survive.

I must admit, I like Cradle of Filth (hey, stop throwing stuff at me :( ). They get bad press for basically no reason, other then it is cool to hate them. The level of musicianship is perfectly fine and the lyrics are just *delicious*.
I love Forest of Shadows, a shame that the drumming is really bad in most of their songs. Other then that, I like all of the metal standards.

If I was sent into the woods I would definitely take an ABS xaphoon or a recorder...maybe even a harmonica if I could find a waterproof enough container for it.

I'd be listening to Therion to psyche myself up for The Big Hunt. Anyone not familiar with them, they're a swedish death metal band famous for incorporating harmonious semi-arias and orchestral bits into slamming metal songs. One of my favourite bands, actually. But, I admit, I would miss modern music. I really like having my CDs, but I could definitely do without TV and computers.

I'd prefer to be called Smudge, not Sludge, Bjarn.  I remember you said that it annoys you when people get offended on online forums on the What annoys you most? thread.  Don't take it personally.  BTW, What is with all the primitive enthusiast people listening to death metal music?, we almost sound like a bunch of anarchists.  I prefer my classic rock 8).

haha long live rock! ;D

Sorry about the typo Smudge.
Ha, someone read that?

Ja, sorry though...and again, this forum is awesome, everyone is happy and lots like metal.

I dont just like death metal...I like it, but I prefer folk and viking metal. Anyone heard of Korpiklaani?

I also love the primitive type music. This one band "Tenhi" is GODLY, they mix finnish shamanic folk with progressive rock. The song Tuulennostatus is a shaman chant with a bullroarer.
I know Therion! Dani Filth's singing grates my ears...

I once read an article on the "Realities of Going Primitive" that inspired me.
http://www.eco-action.org/dt/wildup.html
He succeeded.

Bjarn, if you like Viking metal, you should check out Asmegin. They're one of my favourite VM genre groups.  Asmegin is sort of new and still obscure, but they're more metal than melodic, unlike Therion.

Most heavy metal is life affirming rather than otherwise.
Death metal is generally low quality (don't all jump on me at once) - by which I mean they cover up the lack of musical ability with incoherent screaming and white noise.

As far as death metal goes I pretty much only go for candlemass - the original and the best :-)
And a significant num,ber of their songs were pretty upbeat lyric wise.

I listen to everything from heavy metal to folk music to c&w to pop music. But if I really need cheering up then it's got to be singing along to manowar as loud as you can get it :-)  

Quote:

dont just like death metal...I like it, but I prefer folk and viking metal. Anyone heard of Korpiklaani?

The closest to that that i listen to is Meshuggah and some Moonsorrow.

I am not even from sweden or norway and I like them (ever though i am swedish). It seams cool to listen to music about your heriatge.

anyone here of arya?

Hey!  I love Manowar!

"They will know the power of thy SWORD!!!!!!" http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/musik/music-smiley-006.gif

I am also waiting for Guns N' Roses to get back together.
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/musik/music-smiley-011.gif

"I'm a mean machine, drinking gasoline.  Honey you can make my motor hum........."

I like Cryptopsy! Musical ability and screaming+white noise! Awesome!

I used to like Satyricon, but then I saw them live and they were oh so sloppy :/. Really annoyed me.

I don't know why I like Cradle of Filth, I just do. And over time I've found Danii's voice to be so amazingly demonic (in terms of tone and timbre), and added to the lyrics it gives it this humourous sarcastic quality. I do however hate the concept albums Cradle make.

Children of Bodom are cool, horrible vocals but amazing guitar work. I'd love to hear those guys play classical music without vocals. It would be amazing.

And I like my cheesy/classic style rock. Iced Earth, Avantasia, and Rasphody. Songs about storming battlefields for "God, the King and the mountains" rock.

I LOVE Asmegin! Hin Vordende Sod og So, is one of my favourite albums! I also like Cryptopsy because theyre funny...Defenestration!

Messugah doesnt sound very close to Korpiklaani though.
I cant find any Canadian folk metal type stuff....

Guns N' Roses i like them :)

Quote:

I am also waiting for Guns N' Roses to get back together.

I would think that they would never get back together. It won't be the same with out slash and he has a cool new band, and no it aint slashes snake pit.  ;D

I know they'd never get back together :'(.  But Axl Rose and Slash together on stage would put on such a great show!

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/musik/music-smiley-005.gif

Axl Rose is way too annoying for the band to ever get back together. Anyways, isn't Velvet Revolver just a new Gun's n Roses?

I never heard of ANY of these groups except Guns&Roses. Is That primitive enough for ya? 8)

LOL  ;D Guns and Roses is primitive nowadays aren't they!  I miss those years.......

A band without Axl Rose will never be Guns N' Roses to me.  That's what Velvet Revolver is:

GNR - Axl + some other singer dude from another band

primitive? try ritchie blackmore, he's gone medieval on our ass
sv

primitve songs? he he ever hear polka? my pap listens to that...no beer today is not to bad.  :)

How about the bone flute? Download the flute song on this link:
http://www.creswell-crags.org.uk/virtuallytheiceage/Stone%20Age%20People/Culture/Creative_lives.htm

I love polka! Well, not the german stuff, but Hummpa, the finnish stuff! Näita Polkuja Taalan!

I just heard a couple days ago gnr is about to realease a album but with out slash thats sad

Didn't Velvet Revolver do a big Pop Idol style thing to choose their vocalist? In the way he looks and acts he sorta reminds me of Iggy Pop.

I thought that was INXS or something, either way I hate the singer for Velvet Revolver because he's like a bad Layne Staley act.

But then, I dont really keep up on modern music and if I happen to hear some of it, it seems ot be everywhere. I heard a Greenday song in my friend's car and since then it plays on the announcements at school at 9 every freaking MORNING! :-X

I dig 60's and 70's music.

me too! what do you think of wearen zebon? i killed his name, but he sings lawyers guns and money, that song also has a funny story to it :)

Did he sing Werewolves of London too? I like his music, but I also like Hendrix, Jefferson Airplane, Zeppelin, Cream, Creedence Clearwater Revival, The Allman Brothers Band, and Lynyrd Skynyrd. Music of the 60's has so much more feeling in it than the "rebelious" music of today.

I just checked, it's Warren Zevon. 8)

ah i cant spell anyting ;D

yep he sings Werewolves of London and a few other ok songs.

Hendrix, Jefferson Airplane, Zeppelin, Cream, Creedence Clearwater Revival, The Allman Brothers Band, and Lynyrd Skynyrd.....zztop, blue oyster cult, the doors, and the eagles    :)

Let's not forget Pink Floyd.

Dark Side of the Mooooooooooonnnn!

Sly and the family Stone and Stevie Wonder

teacher leave those kids alone :)

Just another brick in the wall huh?

haha i like twords the end where you hear the phone ring, and he picks up. "
hello mister floyed this the the united states calling"
and he hangs up, and the girl says
"I dont know he just keeps hanging up"

it cracks me up every time i hear it.  ;D