well this is what it is, its a leather belt with a peice of sheet metal that wraps with the belt in the middle. The buckle is the handle and when you pull it out, you have a flexible sword, but i wanted to know if they are made. If they arnt then would somone make one?

Why make a belt that you can castrate yourself with? The blade wouldn't be strong and it wouldn't be useful in a fight.

It is a common weapon in ancient China and India.  Very concealable and lightening fast.  Not very good for blocking but deadly in cutting and slicing.  I haven't seen one up close but saw a TV special about this sword collector.  He swung the thing around like there was no tomorrow!  It looked like he was in as much danger as the cameraman. :o

That's too dangerous.You may slice yourself.

:) you can cut yourself on any sword.

Yeah but do you wear any sword as a belt?  Plus, no offense to any people who like this stuff,  many weapons used by cultures around the world are novelties and extravagant pieces of workmanship not meant for the battle field.  I belive a push dagger was found in India that had three blades that fanned out when you put pressure on the handle.  Imagine holding the belt sword on a battle field,  and then imagine a great angry brute swinging a bastard sword at you.

You can just use a pair of surgical scissors as a push-dagger.It fits perfectly in the palm.And it's comfortable in the palm.

Cool.

You know, he'd probably have a scabbard over it, not just a bare blade.

i was thinking loose folds of shirt or cloth.

Oh, well then I guess it's perfectly harmless and sturdy *cough*.  Just think of how fast you could disembowel yourself by yanking a belt sword out of its scabbard that is secured around your waist.  Plus, how practical is a belt sword?  It sounds to me like a novelty weapon designed for use by nobles,  not a weapon that will see the trenches of war or even daily use by the common person.

I think they were mostly used by assasins.  For whom the concealability of the belt sword is very valuable.

whoa i forgot about this topic but its an assain weapon

Hello!!

ROFLMAO....oh please....this is way too funny.  Ok  serious mode on...

Can you say felony arrest??  That is what you'd be looking at here in the US. As a maker I wouldn't even consider making one on these grounds alone, never mind the fact that it would have to be, by its own nature way too whippy and flexibe to be of any use.

As a sworn L.E.O. I would warn against it due to the fact that it would be consdiered concealed and well, carrying something like that would be a felony, just like the Bowen knives that were so popular in the 1980's...Which is a shame indeed cause these were a very good knife and just big enough to save your hide in a "lost in the woods" sort of situation..

JPH

-_- okay mr un needed comment person

Knight:

Let me clarify something here... You don't know me from Adam...and that's OK..let me introduce myself..maybe that will help a bit..

My moniker here (and a few other places as well) is JPH, the "J" part is for James (Jim) the "H" part is for Hrisoulas..I am a professional bladesmith (now part time thanks to my NG unit being activated on 09/11/01) with close to 40 years experience in making swords, daggers, knives and pattern welded steel. I have written 6 books on the subject of forging and re-creating fine cutlery, 3 of which are currently in print (No. 4 will be out in about a year with numbers 5 and 6 following there after).  Can I ask you how many books you have to your credit?

My  published works so far (on the books that is) have been referred to as "standard works" on the subject, that term is reserved for only the top works published.

I am also a sworn Law Enforcement Officer under the Nevada Revised Statutes.  Before I came to live in Nevada I was  Federal Special Agent. I have been involved in law enforcement and bladesmithing all my  life (more or less...I have been bladesmithing since I was 12..)

I hold a Doctoral degree in metals and I have been referred to numeorus times as one of the "10 most influential people in bladesmithing in the last 500 years".

In addition I have writtenm numerous articles for various trade magaizens and publication such as "Knives Illustrated", "Swords" , "Tactical Knives" and a few others.  I was also a contributing editor for the now defunct "Cut and Thrust" magazine.  

Examples of my work have been displayed in museums world wide and I am considered one of the world's leading researchers into Dark Age Metallography. In fact my Doctoral Thesis was on Pattern Welding Techniques in Dark Age Europe.

Yes, I am "new here" but I am not new to the world.  Now if you  are in the United States and you wish to run afoul the laws of your state, that is your choice. Personally, I would hate to see someone get thrown into jail over something like this, especially when it is totally preventable.  If you are NOT in the US..I would say check your local laws and make damn sure you're not going to be in violation becasue as I understand things, prisons outside the US make US prisons look like vacation hotels...

In closing...if you took offense at what I wrote..I will NOT say I am sorry for if my words saved one person from doing something that could prevented them from ruining their lives..this is a good thing...

Good luck to you..

JPH

JPH,

Thanks for bringing your knowledge to this site and keeping our members out of trouble!

wrote on Oct 12^th, 2005 at 6:21am:

JPH, Thanks for bringing your knowledge to this site and keeping our members out of trouble!

hear hear!

Without those in the know about the law we could easily get carried away creating all manner of objects, then find ourselves on the wrong side of the law.

To speculate and theorise about how one of these weapons would look/work is one thing, but to create one ?



Greywolf

Well JPH, that's a staggering list of credentials, you must and should be very proud of what you've accomplished. By the way, what's a Bowen knife? Did you mean Bowie knife?

http://www.bowenknife.com/products_main.shtml

The Bowen knife, AKA belt knife  ;D


Greywolf

JPH,
      I had no intentions of wearing it in public or using it in public i just wanted to see what one would look like sorry if you thought thatd id carry one around or somthing

Hello again..

THe Bowen knife was/is a "survival knife" in the simplest sense.. It is a small blade compared to the "others" as far as survival knives go.  The idea behind it was a belt buckle/knife that you could wear every day, as "insurance" as far as being in a "live or die" situation...the last time I checked they were made out of 440C, with excellent thermal treatment. They are a good..solid knife... Yet..the "powers that be", being what they are..picked up on these and well..looking at vartious laws, statutes and all..wearing one is a felony.  

I own one, I got it gee..close to 25 some years ago (?) as a "last ditch" back up when I was in the DEA...It was/is an excellent idea really..A good knife can be, literally, a life saver in more than afew situations...

Anyway..back on track here...I made my comment in regards to this to point out that a "bell sword" would be exposing the owner/wearer to arrest and prosecution on a felony charge.  Like I said earlier, a felony conviction can and WILL ruin your life from that point on...I just wanted to prevent something that is life shattering from happening...

Th Bowen knives  were/are a great idea..but in this day and age of fighting "terrorism", they are pretty much an invitation to jail, which in my eyes, is a total shame.  

As far as a "belt sword" goes..this is an extension of this and well, as far as risk vs "benefit" ..I will say don't even think about it if you are in the U.S..

Personally, I have NO problem with an "armed populace"..In fact, every State that has become a "shall issue" state as far as CCW has had a serious DROP in crime. All this shows that criminals prefer unarmed victims and well..I for one won't "go down without a fight"...

But concealed weapon permits ONLY pertain to firearms, NOT any sort of blade at all..and to expose yourself to arrest and prosecution on something like this..well...that is up to the individual, but still itr's not something that would be "worth the risk" as they say...

JPH

Thank you very much JPH, I can see why the Bowen knife would definetly be considered a concealed weapon.  Personally I am of the belief that the population of the United States should in general be able to have a knife such as the Bowen or any knife for that matter, but it is a shame that people willingly choose to use the useful tool to commit crimes.  The West, meaning the U.S. and Europe, is becoming increasingly strict on the carrying of such things as knives.  But what the politicians don't or won't bring themselves to realize is that even though they ban certain weapons the criminals will still carry and use them, and the law-abiding population will have nothing to defend themselves with.

Well Mr. JPH, I'm an amatuer bladesmith- Here you go. I like the heft of it. My own personal bowie knife, made out of fine steel, white oak handle. I used some homemade pitch varnish and alcohol for the finish. Hope you like it. I tend to wax the handle a bit, makes it shiny. This is a pic of my bowmaking tools. You can see the bowie knife in there. Its incredible steel, got it from an old buzzsaw blade.  Well, otherwise, theres my handplane, sandpaper, files, hatchet, and a ruler. I really like that knife, and I'm working on the sheath. Those bowen knives are neat.
Another thing to keep in consideration JPH, we are mostly fourteen, fifteen, sixteen year olds here- in other words- we are not serious!. There is almost no one here who can forge something or anything like a "belt sword".  Knight was mostly wondering if anyone knew anything about it. I don't think he would be able to or try to make one.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a318/Hellfire2005USA/Bowpics3002.jpg

Oh, another thing. I very cleverly attached the handle. No rivets. No tang.  8)

Take a look at JPH's website, boy those blades are somthing else!

Yep, that's some beautiful work. Welcome to the group Jim!

Matthias

Hey Jim read some of your books. How well do you sling lol.
Any way to today i was thinking of some thing like the belt sword at work.
Now granted this is just for imformation sakes. By the way some of jims bookds have been published in cataalogs that use that phase a lot.
this is just a very simple thing a peice of inch metal banding brazed to a metal belt buckle the banding is o.k spring still very flexable would easly fit inside a double layer belt. it also takes a edge very well. my expernce with this is using banding as box cutters and awsome make shift machette's with such a flexable weapon defence might be limited but offence would be awsome
also the wholething would take very little money time or expence. but to where one as Jimputs out would be illigal and most likly insane.
Hey JPH let me introduce you to a gentleman that go's by the monicker TechStuff lol

Hellfire - I like the knife second from the right in the picture - but I think you'll find that the majority of the forum are considerably more than 16 years old and there are actually a few who are more than capable of forging/making serious blades - lobohunter for one :-)
Most of us are growing old disgracefully and so still sound like teenagers lol

Oh wow - just checked out jph's website. So umm, any chance of a discount for slinging.org members on blades ? (well someone had to ask :-)
And how do you pronounce your surname ?
Damned impressed anyway :-)

The sequel to "shanghi Kid"  (Shanghi Noon ? ) with Jacky Chan protrays a villian with a belt sword . Also with my experience with handleing Tai Chi swords I've come across a lot of spring steel swords that are extremely flexible . As to their combat virtues I can't comment except that different weapons require different tactics . With a flexible sword one would have to be very evasive and flexible to get out of the way , Esp against a dude with a viking sword .  8)

  Wow, now that is some craftsmanship. You are very lucky to be able to express yourself in the beauty and usefullness of a blade, especially the pattern welding.

  But anyway, like he said, carrying a concealed weapon without a permit [nevermind that they are only for firearms] is against the law. Heck, in north las vegas if you have a blade longer than an inch it's illegal. Here in the southern part of the city they're a little more lenient  ;)...

Hello:

Sorry for being tardy..been away on business..

On the belt sword thing, like I said before...you choose to wear one, you get caught, you will get into serious trouble, and believe me, this is trouble you do NOT want to deal with.

On what I do...thank you for the kind words...I apprciate that.  It's not hard to do (at least no where near as hard as most others would like for you to believe) cause it is basically what I call "Dark Age Tech".

The techniques I employ are the same ones that have been in use since the Iron Age began. The only real difference is the power source and the raw materials. Other than that, it's pretty much the same..hand hammering, hand tools like fullers and veining dies, top/bottm tools and a whole lot of hand labour. NOt "high tech" at all...  Believe me if I can do it anyone can...

Tumakas: where in the valley are ya??  I am out in Henderson...

JPH

wrote on Oct 24^th, 2005 at 8:00am:

Hellfire - I like the knife second from the right in the picture - but I think you'll find that the majority of the forum are considerably more than 16 years old and there are actually a few who are more than capable of forging/making serious blades - lobohunter for one :-) Most of us are growing old disgracefully and so still sound like teenagers lol Oh wow - just checked out jph's website. So umm, any chance of a discount for slinging.org members on blades ? (well someone had to ask :-) And how do you pronounce your surname ? Damned impressed anyway :-)

umm. I'm actually fifteen years old. I have made about seven bows I really like, started my 8th yesterday, that knife was kind of hard to make, took a while. My neighbor has an anvil and something similar to a forge, we had to modify it a bit. It took me two weeks to get it done, hammering with those larger hammers is a lot of work. The handle was put on differently to most anyone I think has done a handle, but I didn't see a reason why it would not work. I am working on-lately-  building up draw weight with my bows- two days ago I drew back my pappys 70# recurve. I can't draw it more than three or five times so I have to practice on that too.

I think as far as a beltsword, it won't work. Those bowen knives are slick though, and I would have liked to get one when they were available. have to go cya

blade smithing is no terribly hard hoods woods has a cool video on primitve smithing  my blades pretty much look like hellfires nothin fancy but they work anyway I am also 15

I really like bowie knives, theyre very wide and fairly long, nice looking knives. I might put a deeper edge on that one. I like it a lot.

have you ever showed a knife to someone and when they see it  they smirk for some reason I think when you create something you have a better apreciation. yes that is a nice knife, where did you get the metal what is it made of?  didi you harden by dipping it in oil when you where done?

have you ever showed a knife to someone and when they see it  they smirk for some reason I think when you create something you have a better apreciation. yes that is a nice knife, where did you get the metal what is it made of?  didi you harden by dipping it in oil when you where done?



Yeah. I think the same. You'd have a better appreciation for an ugly stick if it shot other sticks- youd call it a bow and youd be proud of it. I got the metal from an old high carbon steel saw blade. I annealed it carefully, did hammering to put in the bevel and used a plasma cutter to cut out the profile. I ground it down with the bench grinder, surprisingly I didn't have to grind it much. Then I heated it red hot and quenched it in chicken blood. Chicken blood works great, and when your buddy is a butcher, that works great too. I suppose oil would work too. This thing can really hold an edge, and I compare chicken blood to brine, so it would be a tad more brittle, but would get a sharper edge. I'm not using it as a crowbar or anything, so a brittle-ish edge is ok.

Hello:

Ya know..back in the 1980's when I was a Doctoral candidate I did a lot of research into different "legendary" quenching mediums that included water (fresh and sea), brine, oil (of various types..both petrol based and organic) wine, blood, urine (worked really well but the aroma would burn out your nose hair), ice, even a cadaver as well as some other liquids and well all I could come up with is this:

If the quenching medium was fast enough, but not too fast, to allow for the proper transition from Austenite to Cementite/Martensite the steel will harden.

Knowing what the proper quench speed is for any given steel/alloy is more important than whether the piece is forged to shape or ground out of a bar.

Forging, when done improperly, can really mess up a piece, and shoddy thermal treatment can only make it worse.  When forging is done correctly it can enhance the performance and when this is coupled with proper thermal treatment you can get some outstanding end results...

Ya know..personally, as young as you guys tend to be that are posting here... (in your teens), this gives me a great deal of hope for the future of forging stuff out. I started at the age of 12, many eyars ago......working in my neighbor's blacksmith shop, Herr Hauffmann's place in NW Pennsylvania back in the 1960's...

If you all keep at it, you all can keep a dying craft alive for the next generation or two...

JPH

Hi JPH. I looked at your site. Very nice. The thoughts passed on to some of the younger guys was very good also.

I used old car springs to make my throwing knives.

http://www.sbcounty.gov/museum/images/Sword-china.jpg
just realized with a little work this idea could make a unconceiled belt sword just make sure your shirt is tucked in and your city allows the open dispay of swords some do.