I have recently become involved in one of the best martial arts I could ever imagine for a slinger such as I/we am/are ;) !  It is called "Goong Do", and is the longest-range ancient classical Asian martial art still practiced regularly to my knowledge.

What struck me immediately, in terms of its structure, was the fact that it not only includes a great 145metre/159-yard target competition, but also a "Gichin Funikoshi-esque" BELT RANKING SYSTEM based on how many targets a person can hit out of 40 arrows (and not too different from the old Spanish-Balearic system of hitting all of the slats on a gate as a way of testing combat readiness/SQT level), limited to increasing a maximum of two dan ranks MAXIMUM per year.  This seems to strike a good, and practical balance to insure the combined skill, participation and dedication to the sport by its students on a large scale.

I think it would be a worthwhile endeaver to perhaps try out setting up a formalized slinging art system based on similar criteria.  I just made my first hit on the 145m target on my tenth attempt on the first day I was allowed to shoot live arrows, and it wasn't easy AT ALL, and luck could have played a large factor, as well as intuition and a lot of experience using Western bows, and similar hand-eye marksmanship skills such as slinging, firearms and knife-throwing.  I was also impressed with the equipment used in these competitions.  The Mongolian-Turkish composite bows are STILL by FAR the finest bows in the world, and the Korean version is the shortest, lightest of this type, for the same draw weight/power in use today.

The longest Olympic range for a wester-style bow competition is 70m, and the longest Western competition PERIOD 90 m for point-type targets.  Even modern MONGOLS only shoot to about 70m, but the Koreans DOUBLE that range!  Only some reported balearic slinging using AREA-type targets such as swimming pools surpasses that for distance.

I think that this model would be a GREAT one for long-distance slingers to adopt.  It could even be adjusted to shorter-range competitions, and even to quasi-"tactical" speed slinging!  Also, there are many possiblilties to learn from other successful martial arts and sporting formats from paintball competitions to combat pistol competitions.

I've even thought of starting a "Benjamin Society", or club consisting of people dedicated to learning to AMBIDEXTROUSLY shoot the VERY compact, lightweight and powerful composite bow AND sling at various ranges, and under various simulated combative conditions, as a form of extreme quasi-historical sport based on the old biblical legends.  I'm not very religious, but it just sounds like a lot of romanticised fun!  If I can find a few interested friends to start this society, I think I may experiment with the above-mentioned format and variations on this theme as a basis for training, structure and competition.

What shots you using? I use rocks

Sounds great!  If you get this started, I do my bst to join.  

The one part that I feel most uncomfortable with is the two ranks maximum per year system.  That is just unfair!  What if someone really talented come along and hit 100% at the maximum range after one year of pratice?  I find it unfitting to only give him the second rank.  I believe rank should be based entirely on a person's ability and not restricted by the time spent praticing the arts.  That's just my thoughts if you feel that rule is important then I'll respect that.

Golf has an elaborated rank system called "handicap". I am not interested in that as I play for myself and hence don't know that well, but I try to describe that here a bit:

The handicap is a number representing how well someone hits. How it does that is not relevant for slinging. In golf the better your value is the more difficult it is to change it either by good or by bad play. This is done by a factor a game influences the handicap which gets lower and lower the better the handicap is. This slows down the improvement but also prevents a drastic fall by a single bad game. With low rankings it is possible to improve doing only private games (must be previously announced to the golf club to be counted for the ranking). Starting with medium ranking at least part of the improvement must come from tournaments.

Adapting that scheme to distance slinging coul be a hitrate instead of the handicap. After slinging 40 stones and getting x hits the difference times a factor is added to the hitrate. This factor changes then when the hitrates goes above e.g. 10, 20, 30, 35.  And based on this hitrate a colourful belt ranking system can be based.

If somebody is interested I can look up the rules about the golf handicap.

Dear Tint,

Thank you for your interest, and good ideas!  I don't see why such a restriction would need to apply to a new slinging and archery group, especially one that would require AMBIDEXTROUS proficiency with TWO weapons at various ranges, since the required interest and skill level ALONE would probably weed out the chaff pretty quickly.  I think a requirement that rank holders have and maintain good character, and respect for the Society and its rules and leadership, etc. would suffice.  Beyond that, skill, accomplishment and dedication to the art should be the primary requirements for certification of proficiency-based rank.  (I also think that sub-certifications at various levels for each weapon/event could also serve to build a basis for a broader, overall rank for those who have attained in several, or all areas.)

However, I suppose in the case of long-range archery the Koreans have their reasons for doing so, and their rules are probably helpful in a Confucian context, or for an established art or system that needs to insure quality control among its participants.  So long as no need ever arose to implement such a restriction, due to some sort of abuse, or glutting of the top ranks, I also think that that type of restriction wouldn't need to apply to the Benjamin Society.

I really feel that such a club has a lot of potential to accomplish a lot of good, and if enough high quality people show enough interest to persevere in meeting and training regularly and developing a high degree of slinging and archery proficiency that would be the most important thing, and I would not wish to discourage talented people who should be leaders in such an effort by holding them back with restrictive rules.

I'll let you know how my localised efforts here go, and will try to keep our meetings and training sessions as practical and helpful to the members and community as possible, even if our membership is only a handful at first.

Dear Zwiebeltuete,

Thank you also!  Your idea sounds a lot like the Korean Goongdo/archery belt ranking system, with the addition of coloured "kyu"-level belts (I personally favour the somewhat "scientific" 9-kyu levels:  white, then ROYGBIV rainbow spectral colour scheme then to a brown colour, and finally 5-9 possible "dan" (black belt) ranks, the top four being so difficult in nature that it would take years for most experts to reach, or otherwise only honourary in nature, and therefore awarded for outstanding long-term contributions to the art above and beyond the call of duty, etc.

Dear Rocky,

Mostly stones and lead fishing sinkers.  But the possibilities are nearly endless, within reason!

so the goongdo is just archery ?
what sort of bow ?
never been interested in ranking systems - they mainly exist to keep kids and beginners interested.
Martial arts I tend to do because I enjoy them, I gauge my improvement on how often I get application demo-ed on me by my teacher :-)

It is a very special type of ancient Mongolian-style archery, which uses a very special type of composite bow used in the ancient world, which is more efficient than modern bows.  Some of the best modern compounds may approach, or slightly surpass them ballistically, but are not nearly as handy, light or compact as these bows.  The most powerful of these were estimated to have a 600 -plus yard range, and a 300 yard killing range, with shots from 150-166-pound versions reported as landing over 900 yards distant from the shooter.

The Biblical "bow of bronze" was probably a reference to a composite scythian-tatar-type recurve bow of a similar design.

The art incorporates yogic pranic breathing known as Ki-gong/Qigong, so it could be said to be a little more than mere archery.

As for the skill ranking system, I know that usually that is how most commercial schools employ them.  They are obviously not necessary to learn combative skills, but do serve as good yardsticks for competition, and incentives for improvement for many people.  They were originally invented by Jigoro Kano/Kano. Jigoro of Okinawa, and combined with weight classes to ensure better fairness in competition among Judo students, and have been widely subsequently adopted in most countries in many martial arts and sports.

Even the U.S. military does something similar to this when it issues marksmanship badges for "marksmen", "sharpshooters", and "experts", etc.

My grandma is Mongolian!  She is no archer though :-/.

pictures dude - we want pictures :-)

150 lb pull bow. How tall is this thing ?
That's some pull, I could do it but I don't know many other people who might.
Sounds like fun anyway :-)  

Aardvaark,

Check out http://atarn.org/islamic/akarpowicz/turkish_bow_tests.htm and educate yourself. ::)

yeeesss, but those were turkish recurved bows - not korean.
Got anything on your korean ones ?

Aardvaark,

You are splitting hairs:  It's like the difference between a Romanian-made AKM and a Russian-made one...They are essentially the same type of bow. ::)
Or are you just having me on?

Hey, Aarvaark!

I was just in contact with a man who has tentatively offered to make me a Magyar/Hungarian version of the Horn bow in 160# draw weight!!  If this goes through, I'll let you know, and send you some pictures of it!! 8)

Like I said, it's essentially the same as the Korean bow, but with a slightly different aesthetic appearance.  But some Koreans here shoot bows with the same profile as the Hungarian version.  I can refer you to a picture of a Korean bow in 106 pounds, if you like, and the arrow that it destroyed when it impacted with a target more than 140 metres away :o  (145 to be exact!).(I think you like, yes?!!) ;)

wow i i can ask how much will it cost inm interested

Magnum,

"The Biblical "bow of bronze" was probably a reference to a composite scythian-tatar-type recurve bow of a similar design"

What is the reference to this statement?

I've done some research on this and the Hebrew word means "serpentine or snake like". Like the shape of a double convex bow or scythian type.

Thanks,
Johnny

Dear Britishslinger,

I'll let you know as soon as I get his reply to my inquiry.  Such bows used to run between just over $200 USD for a simple version to over $600 for more elaborately decorated and finished models, depending on the bowyer, materials, specs of the bow, etc.  I'll try to find out how much this gentleman would require to supply them, and other details ASAP, and whether he has any in stock, etc.  If not, it could take a few months for him to manufacture one, or more in a lot, and ship it/them.  (To me, there's just something compelling about the idea of using a sling in combination with a good horn bow!  That's why I'm going to try to launch this "Benjamin" project of mine!)

Thank you, also, for being interested!  It's nice to know that I'm not the "Lone Stranger" in this regard!  :D

Dear Johnny,

Thank you for that!  I'm not certain offhand where I read the references that have lead me to this conclusion, but I do believe that I am correct in this regard, due to several factors of time period, geography, descriptions of military equipment, tactics, and encounters, etc. attributed to the Hebrews and their Philistine, Persian, Median, Babylonian, Egyptian and other neighbors, etc.

I'll see what I can dig out of my library, computer files, head, etc. that may be of interest to you!  I do a lot of reading and research in many areas, and this is one of them.  Thank you again for the supporting information! :)

May I ask you what you know about the Benjaminnites?  Is there anything particularly interesting, or special that comes to mind?

I know that there is a connection between the Biblical word for serpent (Nekhash?) and the word for copper/bronze/etc. (Nekosheth), and that these two terms appear to be closely interrelated, and that Moses used a "bronze serpent" to heal the people's wounds at the mouths of "fiery serpents, etc., and that some Hermetic Kabalists claim an identification among these terms, and "Meshiach" or "anointed deliverer", if I am not mistaken, so the use of "serpentine" and "bronze" alternately by various translators to describe the bow would make sense.  As a "traveling man" with special interests in various religious and philosophical traditions, I spend some time every week trying to read up on similar matters.

Ah right - you didn't actually mention that the turkish bows were the same as the korean ones. And as bows vary from a couple of feet in length to over 6 feet (I think the longest is actually a japanese bow where you draw by pushing it away from your rather than pulling) with almost infinite design differences It wasn't obvious :-)
And I'd probably take the russian akm over the romanian one any day :-)

Just had a 45 minute qigong session after my gym workout :-) Bring it on lol !

Concentrating your chi and increasing your balance would certainly help with archery, particularly if you're hanging onto a 150lb bow. I believe that's one of the core tenets of japanese archery as well.

Heh, heh! Totally agree with you on those points regarding archery, qigong, etc. Curious!

Yeah, I guess I sometimes assume that others are filling in the blanks on obscure points when I go into fast-forward information and minutiae upload mode!  I can probably blame it at least in part from my old M.I. officer days in the army when I had to give all sorts of intelligence briefings to commanders and their staff members, threat briefings and weather reports, etc.  to the whole battalion, and...?...(oh, yes, and the "gun" report: "Boom, sir!" :D )

Your mention of your martial arts philosophy and background, and strength training, etc. are impressive, by the way!  It sounds like you have a well-rounded, and extensive background.

You've inspired me to try to actually obtain one of these unusual high-powered bows, and maybe even two, to see what they look and feel like.  I have asked the bowyer if he can get me a Crimean Tatar version in the 120-pound range, and /or the Hungarian Bow in the 160 pound range.  He doesn't keep these in stock, as it turns out, and he will have to build them, so it will unfortunately take at least three months, he told me today :'( , but that didn't discourage me.  I asked him to give me the final details, and if all looks satisfactory, I plan to order one, or both, depending on the expense involved, etc.  I'll let everyone here know as soon as I know more.

The site for the Korean archery picture of the man with the 106-pound version of the Korean horn bow is at: http://koreanarchery.org/106lb.jpg

As it turns out, it looks like I could have been underestimating the range we were shooting at a bit, or else this guy backed of an additional 5m, because the source says that the arrow was destroyed, after hitting a target 145m away, as opposed to 140m (I think he must've backed off from the firing line 5m, but I can double check that)  Anyway, here's the address of the picture I promised of the tip of the arrow that was thus destroyed:
http://koreanarchery.org/point.jpg

I hope that you find these pictures interesting, Curious Aardvaark!  Have a good one!

Magnum,
Notice that he is drawing the bow with the "mediterranean draw". Is it to difficult to draw a 100# bow with a thumbring?

I make longbows and can shoot 100# bows with no problems. No way could I do it with the thumb only! Of course these guys have been drawing the bow this way all their life!

Johnny

Johnny,

That's a great observation!  What happens with Koreans who are just drawing bows casually is that they generally default to the three-or-four-finger draw, usually with a glove, without bothering to find the thumb ring, stuff, and screw it onto their thumb, adjust it to the correct angle, tighten the leather shem strap, etc. when they are not actually intending to fire an arrow with it.  This man also didn't lock his forearm fully when push-pulling the bow, which ALSO makes the draw more difficult for him to hold, but he's obviously strong enough to get away with it.

The thumb ring, if fitted well, doesn't really make the draw harder, unless it bites into your thumb  (In which case, it is no fun to draw even a LIGHTER weight bow!).  You just have to maintain a reasonably good grip on it.  When actually firing arrows, Koreans and other hornbow archers always use the thumb ring, because it makes the release much cleaner, and improves accuracy and protects the fingers somewhat with heavier draw weights, by precluding contact with the pressure end of the string.

i shoot a bit, with a 60 pound compound bow. these bows make the english longbow (which had a draw weight for war of about 120 pounds) look like primitive toys. 160lbs? no wonder the sling faded from the battlefield, these things are wonderful. the men who used them to shoot from horseback must have been of incredible strength and skill.
sv

Have to admit my archery experience is limited to a short course I took quite a few years ago. But we pretty much just used a 2 finger draw. That three finger draw looks pretty awkward as far as a smooth release goes. Guess like everything it's practice. :-)

Getting that kind of power out of such a light and short looking bow (I'm assuming that guy isn't 8 feet tall lol) is pretty damn impressive (mind you he's a tough looking bugger - serious callouses on his hand).

Martial arts wise I did some judo as a kid and have been studying tai-chi, wu-chi & qi-gong for about 6 years now. Strength training is actually a sort of necessity lol. I'm damned if I'm going on a diet as food is pretty much my only vice. So I have to do silly amounts of exercise to avoid getting extremely fat. And I build muscle faster than I burn fat, so I concentrate on the strength side of things rather than massive amounts of cardio (sort of a polynesian metabolism) :-)
I like the philosophy behind most martial arts and once you start feeling the chi moving around you pretty much get hooked :-)

So what's a thumb ring - is that what the chap holding the arrow head is wearing. I assume you hook that onto the string rather than fingers, But how do you release it and wouldn't it damage the string ?

Dear Aardvaark,

Yes I was ALSO VERY impressed with the lighness, compactness, power and efficiency of these weapons, as I am with the sling!  That's why I was so glad everybody responding was so genuinely interested in such an impossible-sounding weapon.  Just wait til you actually HOLD one of these "weightless wonders" someday!  I was hooked for life immediately when I first held my 70 pound model!  It's easy to get the required distance with a 40-, or 50-pound model, so you don't have to go as high on these bows, poundage-wise as with other types of bows to get really amazing results.

Yes, that's a very small, customised thumb ring the man has on his other hand!  Good observation...These things are VERY smooth (Polished like glass!), and are actually easier on the string that using the fingers, like a teflon-, or nylon-lined bullet is easier on a pistol barrel than a lead or copper jacketed one.  Yes, you sort of hook the bowstring onto the notch, or horn knob of the ring, and loop your index finger over it, making a tight fist, and supporting your index finger by pressing in(thumbward) on it with your middle and ring fingers.  To release, you just need to  relax your thumb, and fling your hand wide open and backward, as you arch your shoulders/elbows apart (much as in Tai chi's "pierce to the rear" fa-jing movement) and rearward.  the ring will instantly release and guide the string where it needs to go, cleanly away from your cheek where you have been pressing the side of the arrow just forward of the fletching.)  

The feeling is incredible!  Just as with a long, well-made sling releasing a leaden glande on a perfect throw, it makes you feel like a silent "human gun", as "Cliff Savage" (CAN'T be his real name!?) wrote of the sling in his seminal work on the sling entitled "The Sling for Sport and Survival"!

Dear Funslinger,

There is a special way to hold the bow so that if you do it, and then release the thumb ring correctly, the bow will never come near your forearm, or wristwatch.  You also cant/tilt the bow slightly to the arrow side 15 degrees, so that the arrow looks like it is magically suspended in mid-air under the bow (actually it is being pinched/held in place by torque from the inner index finger-side of your string-pulling hand and upper-(proximal knuckle end of your) index finger).  The bow is devoid of handshock, so it should naturally just snap into the proper slanted position, at nearly 90 degrees from/perpendicular to your forearm, and palm.

Yes, style-wise, there's an interesting interweaving of flash and real substance in Korea.  You can't tell a person's skill or ability level until you get to know them, whether he or she  is flashy, or plain Jane in appearance here.

Magnum,
How do you keep the thumbring from bitting into your finger? I made one out of horn and the darn thing feels like it's gonna cut my finger off..!
Johnny

Dear Johnny,

They use a file and sandpaper to round the edges to fit the particular person's thumb, and often further cushion it with a small, custom-cut piece of leather glued with Locktite or similar bond.  I just hit the target with my first two shots today, then made a few more hits throughout the day.  Also, my near misses are getting closer together, and to the target than before.  My main teacher likes the sling, but a lot of the others there didn't really understand its charm...They wanted me to hit a 145m target on the first shot with a sling, and when that didn't happen, seemed to quickly lose interest.  But, considering that they USUALLY hit it with their bows with no problem, it's sort of hard to blame them! :-/

By the way, on my second day of shooting, I hit the target on my fourth shot, and on the third day, I hit it on the sixth and tenth shots, so now they are letting me shoot on the regular line with the REAL archers, although I do so with mixed results, to say the least!  They sometimes miss the target, and I sometimes HIT it! :P

Still, I'm improving a LITTLE, while learning a LOT!  I'ts so instinctive, and trains you to shoot by feel as much as by sight!  That's really cool!  I hope it will help me with my slinging and other hand-eye throwing and striking activities.

Thumb rings sound interesting - as for tai chi movements. Ah well, my teacher doesn't believe in all the naming stuff. We just do it, having no idea what it's called :-) And as there are as many forms of tai-chi as there are tai chi masters, I have no idea what you mean :-)
The wu-chi on the other hand is unique to our school and a much more advanced/powerful (personally I believe the german word 'kraftig' sums it up best) system. My teacher and his master regularly go back to china to teach it, as it's one of the very nearly lost arts of chinese martial arts.

So how are these bows made then ?

Dear Aardvaark,

Try the following link for a great video to give you a good idea of how the traditional (more expensive, all-natural materials) ones are made:  http://hornbow.com/video.html

Yes, I know what you mean abou the Taiji schools, names, etc.

I was refering to the Yang Lu Ch'an version (over 300 movements, etc.), and terminology, as presented by Erle Montaigue and the World Taiji Boxing Association,( formerly?)  out of Murwillumba, Oz.  (Their HQ may have moved to England by now.)

this is a better link from the same site :-)
http://hornbow.com/makebow.html

Ah right - don't think richard is overly impressed with the tai-chi union of great britain.
So I try not to mention things that upset him :-)

At the end of the day it all gives the same sort of benefit.
But mostly these days we concentrate on the wu-chi which is a much older system and the one that most tai-chi derives from.

lmao it just occured to me - horn=keratin=toenails.
These bows are made from toenails :-)
That's dangerous feet :-)