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Message started by mgreenfield on Feb 23rd, 2004 at 10:16pm

Title: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by mgreenfield on Feb 23rd, 2004 at 10:16pm
The bow&arrow guys have standards for measuring shooter accuracy.   Are we slingsters ready for the same??

Outdoor shooting is at a 49" (122cm) target w 4.8"dia bullseye & 9 concentric rings.   Shooting distances are 30, 50, 70, 90meters for men, 30, 50, 60, 70meters for women (sorry Ulrica).  36shots make a match.

Indoor shooting is at a 24.5" (60cm) target from 25meters, or at a 16.3" (40cm) target from 18meters.

Clout shooting is at a 30"target set on the ground at a 45deg angle, and surrounded by 5 concentric rings on the ground, each 1yard distant from the ring inside it.  Shooting distances are 180yards for men, and 120yards for women.

See www.hickoksports.com/history/archery for more info.

Where shall we start in scoring slingster accuracy??  For the sake of the space-challenged among us, I opt for the simply adopting the short 18meter indoor distance and target.   For ammo at this short distance, I suggest standard tennis balls; chalk dusted to mark the target on impact.

Any interest??    What changes??   mgreenfield

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Feb 23rd, 2004 at 11:08pm
There already is a target standard, from the Balearic Islands.  This originally came from Hondero, but I'm going to post this first!

The target is a 1.2m square of wood with a 0.5m hole in the center behind which a steel sheet hangs. Center point for the target is 1.6m from the ground. They used the same target set at multiple ranges. The distances for men are 30, 45 or 60 paces (one pace=65 cm). Women and children throw at 15 and 30 paces.

Records are a little hard to explain: for men, to 45 and 60 paces, hits in the wood count 2 points, and in the metal, 4 points. The slinger can only do one trial shot and 4 valid shots. The record for 60 paces are about 10 points, i.e. three shots in the wood and one in metal, etc. For 45 paces and men, the records areabout 12 points, i.e. three metals, two metals and two woods, etc.I use to say that they dont fail the wood from 60 paces and the metal from 45 paces, more o less.

I used the nearest thing I had, a 48" square of plywood and a round bullseye made from a 55 gallon drum lid, which are 24" round. If you hit the wood it goes 'thud', the lid rings like a gong.  Makes for easy scoring.

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by JeffH on Feb 24th, 2004 at 12:28am
This Baelaric target sounds great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (Pun intended)

This is sort of like silohuetee shooting with guns.  Immediate notice of your hit.

Maybe I will get to make myself one of these this spring.

jeff <><

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Hondero on Feb 24th, 2004 at 4:59am
Very well explained, Dan, I would not do it better (are not those my own words?  ;D ;D). As you say, JeffH, is very rewarding to ear the sound of the Balearic target announcing the perfeccion of the shot. We have in the South of Spain, in Malaga, another one precision sling contest that uses different rules. In it they participate the goatherds of mountaineous areas, that still uses the sling in the care of their flocks. Been Malaga a tourist place, with splendid beaches and other attractiveness, also are present and  even participate, many tourists (I take advantage of the occasion to promote the national tourism). The contest is to 50 meters distance and the target is a crock of 50 centimeters of diameter (more or less), that is full of flour. The target does not sound like the Balearic one, but when you hit it and break the pot, a white cloud extends suddenly like a really impressive explosion.
By the way, the sling from Malaga is similar to the Balearic one, of vegetal fiber braid and splited pouch.

P.D. I really love accuracy, I tink soon I´ll write something about it for the Articles section, with the permission of Chris. If the accuracy is perfection, and the perfection is a spiritual thing, does isn´t the sling a spiritual thing too ?( sorry Jeffh, I meant a spiritual means  ;D ;D)

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Feb 24th, 2004 at 8:49am
Yep, they are your words Hondero!   ;D   Thanks to Ed Somervail for the translation years ago.  5 computer crashes and I still have those old files.  :)


Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by David_T on Feb 24th, 2004 at 9:04am
Hondero,

Accuracy con honda may not be spiritual but it sure feels muy bien y cuiero lo. Is that how you say: very fine and I want it?

My son and I made videos of slinging and are sending them to Chris. I am hoping that you can watch them. I tried to give examples of different styles that we have talked about here. Please give your comments about them when you see them. I was trying to do a Baleric style slinging like you described in a post of yours. Of course I tried to stay true to the Baleric style by hitting the tatrget all the time ;D ;D ;
Chris is very busy so we will see them when he can get  a chance to post them. I am mailing him a very big file of video, but I was able to e-mail him a couple shorter videos.

In the video, my George the Roman target is a big metal can and a plastic bucket for a head. It makes a very rewarding sound when you hit it. ;D You can hear it in the video. I need to put four in it like the Malaga target you spoke of ;D ;D

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by mgreenfield on Feb 24th, 2004 at 10:33am
I like the fun of thumping, ringing, & exploding targets, too.   But is our little band of slingsters ready to show the big archery world that the sling is STILL a viable alternative to their bow & arrow??  To do this, I say we must:

1/ Show comparable accuracy as they judge it.  
2/ Show superiority by delivering more energy to the target.

In short, we want to hit the archery bullseye (almost) as often, AND when we do hit it, knock it right out of the target instead of punching a tidy 1/4" hole in it.

So, who will be our slinging "Davids", taking on the "Golaiths" of archery??   My, my I AM a competitive old guy, aren't I?  ;D   mgreenfield

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Larry B. on Feb 24th, 2004 at 10:55am
I believe the accuracy of a slinger is inherently poorer than that of an archer.  I do a little of both.  I don't see how a sling thrown rock could ever be more precise than say a pitched baseball (I do a little of that too).  Good archers are very accurate with their shots, typically scoring near perfect (i.e. never missing) scores at 18 meters.  I can assure you, however that their aim would suffer terribly after that first stone buzzed past their head.  Actually from 18 m I'm sure I could hit the target but not in the center every time.  When people ask me if I can hit anything with my sling, I tell them I could scare the living daylights out of them from 100 yards away but it would likely take a few throws before I hit them.  I like the Balaeric target idea.

Larry

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by David_T on Feb 24th, 2004 at 11:36am
:'(

Reality sets in.
The bow is still used in sport hunting today because it is easier for the average joe blow (don't you sometimes feel sorry for those named Joe-- we mean no offense) to use with a degree of accuracy.

I think reality  proves Larry's point that the bow is more precise or accurate if the best of both weapons were competing.

Here in is the attraction and challenge of the sling. Anyone can hit a target with a bow in a few tries.
Take the ten best archers and the 10 best slingers. Assume the slingers had never used a bow and the archers had never used a sling. Give them all bows and watch them all hit the target. Give them all slings and watch the slingers run for cover ;D --the safest place probably being infront of the archers targets ;D

So what is the point? I don't know-- but I'm having fun before heading out to work!

Actually, if I were putting together an army I would want to teach archery first because I could get them "useful" faster. But for the "talented" ones ;D with strong arms I would teach them the use of the sling.
This of course is in terms of ancient warfare.

I love the challenge of the sling and the simplicity. I could throw 10 in my backpack if I wanted and not worry about bending or scratching them. I could throw stones all day from a mountain top and not worry about losing them. If I needed one for suvival, I could make one and  (not too long from now) be able to hit something with it to fry up. I guess the acher would say he could make a bow too but while he was, I would get the game first ;D

It all depends on your preferences I guess.

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Hondero on Feb 24th, 2004 at 12:15pm
David, "I want it = lo quiero". You are improving your Spanish but I think both have the same problems with the other language: they are as difficult to dominate as accuracy with sling  >:(
Poor man George, all full of flour. If the Romans wake up... ;D I´ll be waiting to your videos to comment them.

Mgreenfield, "So, who will be our slinging" Davids ", taking on the" Golaiths "of archery? My, my I A.M. to competitive old guy, aren't I? "  Yes, we must renew that famous duel in the old Greece of the slingers against the archers. It will be the only way to promote the sling, I´m afraid.

Larry, "Good archers are very accurate with their shots, typically scoring to near perfect (i.e. never missing) scores at 18 meters."  Bah, to 18 meters is not worth the trouble to use a powerful weapon as the sling. You can hit perfectly by hand. Those archers... ;D ;D


Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by english on Feb 24th, 2004 at 1:08pm
Those targets do sound a good idea.  I am sure I would suck at actually hitting them, but I would give it a go.  Accuracy with a bow is very much easier, with correctly spined arrows, and accuracy at long range is easier.  And it does depend on what bow you use.  The sling was probably best used to gall the enemy at extreme long range.

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Larry B. on Feb 24th, 2004 at 1:17pm
I believe historically in warfare both the bow and the sling were used on "area targets".  The warrior had to be accurate enought to lob an arrow or a stone into a massed group of enemies in order to be effective.  This notion of pinpoint accuracy is much more challenging and alot more fun.  Hondero,  I agree 18m is not where the sling is most effective but WOW would those impacts be impressive when you hit the target!

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Larry B. on Feb 24th, 2004 at 1:35pm
Another thought just came to mind that I have to share...

Has anyone heard of archery golf?  "Pins" (a small soft target) are placed at various distances from 100 yards to 500 yards apart.  You might have 9 or a dozen scattered around the area and go from pin to pin.  To play, you shoot toward the target, getting as close as possible, then walk up and retrieve your arrow and shoot again from the point of impact until you hit the target.  Typically an "approach" shot is made, followed by a few closer shots where pinpoint accuracy comes into play.  Variations of this game are played with Frisbees also.  

This would be a blast with slings!  Just imagine.  Rocks whizzing all over the place...  Trying to locate your previous impact...  Swearing and cussing when a throw goes awry... Whoops and hollers if and when anyone actually managed to hit anything...  Maybe the targets could be old junked cars or something similar.  

I about fall off my chair laughing at some of the images that come to mind when David_T mentions an army of new slingers hurling stones every which direction except at the target, or Viscount Niklos getting tangled up in his staff sling.  How about an army of us galloping around on horses with our slings spinning above our heads.  Surely the enemy would fall to the ground in fits of laughter to be easily dispatched by the follow up troops with clubs.

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Yurek on Feb 24th, 2004 at 1:51pm

Quote:
...Yes, we must renew that famous duel in the old Greece of the slingers against the archers...


I'm afraid the slingers will not outrun the archers long time yet :(
I must add fuel to the fire. Here are only some examples:

RANGE

24.10.1979 - Drake Harry, 1.854 m 40 cm (2.028 yards), unlimited footbow;

2.10.1980 - Drake Harry, range  949 m (1.038 yards 1'  11") with recurve bow 25 kg (55,1lb);

2.08.1987 - Don Brown, range  1.222 m (1.336 yards, 1' 3"), bow 60 kg (132 lb), velocity  154 m/sek  (507ft/s);

29.07.1989 - Don Brown, range  (1.022 m = 1.118 yards, 2' 1"), compound bow  33 kg (72,8 lb);

ACCURACY

Curuta  Masatoki, Japan - shot 10050 arrows durring 21 hours, 5383 of them hit exactly the centre of the target from 117 metres.

Well, it breaks my good mood :(

Jurek


Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Hondero on Feb 24th, 2004 at 4:18pm
WoW, we have nothing to do in range... and in accuracy... this japanesse people... may be if we teach them with the sling they hit the target to 200 meters ::)

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Johnny on Feb 24th, 2004 at 6:46pm
Yurek
Don't get to discouraged, I'm sure the bows they were using are modern day creations,i.e.-Fiberglass laminates, cable wheel powered compounds, etc... Remember, the Rhodians in Xenophon's army kept the Persian archers at bay with their slings. The Greeks outdistanced them!
Johnny

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Hondero on Feb 24th, 2004 at 8:00pm
Yurek, just a guess: if the Larry distance record is about 430 meters with a 2 oz stone, wich will be the record with 1 oz lead glans and the same launching speed? (The weight of an arrow maybe about 1 oz or less).

Second guess: what can we do to throw this 1 oz glans with the same speed that the 2 oz projectile.

Third and last: how can we increase the launching speed of a light proyectil.

Who knows the answers will be the next worl record winner  ;D ;D

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by David_T on Feb 24th, 2004 at 8:21pm
Sounds like the Japs should have stuck to the bow in WWII ;D My cousin married a great Japanese American      so any touchy people --don't think I have bad feelings ;D


LB,

Now I'm laughing.
I can picture a row of slingers gallopping toward the enemy lines, as they all begin to sling they realize they are too close together, in a tangled up mess their horses all split and leave them rolling on the ground toward the enemy where they finally come to a      y and bruised stop-- all tied together and ready to be hulled off as POWs  ;D ;D This could be a great thread to watch ;D

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by David_T on Feb 24th, 2004 at 8:24pm
Wow the word B L O O D Y got censorred? And the correct spelling is "Hauled" off as POWs ::)

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Larry B. on Feb 24th, 2004 at 9:33pm
Generally a lighter stone would be easier to accelerate to a higher velocity but would not have as good in-flight characteristics.  I always assumed the old records with heavier stones were released at lower velocities but carried quite well to acheive their distances.  I cannot get a heavier (3 or 4 oz+) stone up to sufficient speed in just one turn.  I can throw with several spins of the sling around my head but I never felt that it helped much except with heavier projectiles.  My delivery could be modified to include three or four spins then the final "pop" at release.  I don't see that as my best strategy, however.  

Regarding release velocity, I feel throwing a heavier stone is more a function of strength whereas a lighter stone at higher velocity has to do more with timing and technique.  That is with the sling length held constant.

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Chris on Feb 25th, 2004 at 2:59am
There is an optimal weight with projectiles.  If it's too light, the drag will slow it down to much (drag is based on shape).  If it's too heavy, you might not be able to accelerate it up to your maximum speed.  

If you think about the surface area of a CD.  If you make the diameter a half inch bigger, think about how much extra surface area you get.  Almost an entire new CD!  The same works with projectiles.  A 1 oz. gland doesn't have half the surface area as a 2 oz. one.   So for just a bit bigger projectile, you can get a lot more mass.  Which then means the drag relative to the mass is less.  I get my best ranges with heavier projectiles, around 4 oz.  

Chris

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by TechStuf on Feb 25th, 2004 at 4:56am
Chris,  I will gather some information to send you regarding optimal ammo types for our sport.

:)

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by mgreenfield on Feb 25th, 2004 at 9:54am
If slings can  be nothing but sloppy blunderbusses for accuracy, where did all those claims come from re slinging at a hair's breadth and not missing, and picking the exact part of the enemy's face to hit with a slingstone, and other??    Just "my slingers can beat your slingers" hot air??    If so, I'm disappointed.   :'(   mgreenfield

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Feb 25th, 2004 at 10:26am
Here is an exerpt from an account of Larry Forsyth, who met an old Mescalero Indian while stationed in El Paso, Texas.

"At approximately 35 yards or less his accuracy was more than equal to the fictional Ayla*. He explained that after that distance the stone lost velocity rapidly which would make kills more difficult, but his accuracy seemed barely affected. His demonstration target was the bottom metal climbing rung on an old style telephone pole which he easily hit more than 80% of the time with such extreme speed and force that the stone would fracture into small pieces while the rung itself rang like a loud, dull sounding bell. He matter-of-factly claimed similar accuracy on moving targets. To the best of his knowledge, his Mescalaro tribe had been using slings for centuries for hunting or combat and could kill a deer or warrior with equal ease."  

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Hondero on Feb 25th, 2004 at 12:28pm
Larry and Chris, I agree with you that the light projectiles have bad behavior in flight, because they are restrained by the air in greater proportion than heavier ones. Although I´m not an expert in range, the projectile I prefer for reach is of about 50 gr., close to the 2 oz present record. Nevertheless the historical data are something differents.

From the distant times of the Neolithic, when the sling began to be used military, the more or less standardized projectiles  had an average weight of 35 grams. In later times the clay projectiles were continued using everywhere. The Carthaginians used them and also the mercenary troops of different origin to the service of Rome. Then, the average weight of the projectiles continues being around that weight of 35 grams. The revolution caused by lead glandes invented by the Greeks and adopted immediately by the Romans, gave rise to a very diverse manufacture of projectiles according the function wished for them, being used sometimes projectiles of around 100 grams, but the average weight, according to my investigations between different authors place them around the 40 grams. There are authors than place the average weight lower, about 30 grams. Everything depends on the examined archaelogical collections. I have a collection of 350 glandes and the average weight is 50 grams approximately, but there is a significant proportion of them of small size, of around 20 grams. It is necessary to think that these small projectiles would have been used specifically to obtain reach, because at medium ranges it would be preferred to use projectiles of greater power of impact. All this considering that the light old slings would have an approximated weight of 20-30 grams., very close to the weight of the proyectil, which was not the most advantageous condition to use this type of light projectiles. With the modern materials lighter slings can be constructed that optimize the use of these small projectiles. The experimentation is fundamental in this subject, since mathematical calcules are very complex and not much adequate to the speeds that are handled with the sling.

Dan, I didn´t know this reference, it´s nice to find a new one :)

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by TechStuf on Feb 25th, 2004 at 1:17pm
Here is a pic of some specialized ammo that is very promising.  It may be replicated by simple ingot casting method.  Check out the work of Victor Schauberger, once an Austrian naturalist who, upon observing brook trout remain nearly motionless against a fast moving stream, went on to produce many strange devices that appeared to exhibit negative drag or at the very least, vastly reduced drag!....wild stuff indeed!  

Here is a pic of the DynaBee Ammo which produces a very pronounced buzzing sound when first released from an ordinary sling design and quickly orients itself for very quiet, stable, accurate and fasssssst flight! Shot from a sling equipped with the correct release mechanism, it is very efficient, accurate and stable right outta the gate! :



Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Chris on Feb 25th, 2004 at 1:24pm
As for accuracy, there is a Roman text floating out there (I forget it's name) that has comments from a Roman General.   He says the standard they used for their slingers (which were used primarily as auxiliary ranged troops) was something like a foot by foot target at 200 feet.  Or something crazy like that!  I think it's here in the forum if people are willing to search for it.  

See, what we have to keep in mind is that the level of exposure and training these people had was extraordinary.  They could handle the sling like it was a part of them.  They are sort of like current day baseball pitchers, that can aim for a very small target area at 50 feet (?) away and throw at 100+ mph.  I can't do it, but there are people that can.  

Chris

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by TechStuf on Feb 25th, 2004 at 1:39pm
Very good point, Chris.   Quite a difference between a casual hobbyist and one who relied on the sling as a primary method of survival!   It is quite a feat to sink a basketball from full court, (just think, the ball sailing that far with only a couple inches clearance on any side!) but it's occurrence is fairly common, nowadays.  The sling is no different.  To the adept,  it is much the same as the Samurai blade to it's owner.....an extension of one's arm.   (Although I stop short at revering my sling as the 'soul' of this particular dabbler)  lol


Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by TechStuf on Feb 25th, 2004 at 1:41pm
Or do I..............[glb]Mwwwaaahaaahaaa[/glb]  


Just kidding.  I wanted to see what the glow was all about.  Kewl.

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Larry B. on Feb 25th, 2004 at 3:19pm
I would be the last to question the skills of the ancient practitioners but I still believe we need to scrutinize claims with a critical eye.  Stories and accounts of great feats are much more likely to be embellished than downgraded.  

Accuracy with a sling is mainly a function of being able to release at the right moment as the pouch traces an arc in it's trajectory.  This is the same as when  throwing a baseball.  One could argue that releasing the knot is a slightly more "control-able" event than letting a ball slip out of your hand for release or on the other hand , maybe it's not.  But one could also argue that a baseball pitcher has many factors favoring their accuracy.  Namely: Stable, consistent footing; and a ball of a fixed weight with no variation from throw to throw.   If ancient cast projectiles were of consistent weight, that would help.  Pro pitchers give up the long ball when they miss their spot by 4 or 6 inches (from 60 ft 6 in).  They don' hit it every time.  The geometry involved says that someone who could hit a 6 inch target consistently at 50 ft could hope for nothing better than hitting a 2 ft target at 200 ft.  At 200 yards this equates to a 6 ft target.   Actually, performance would be worse at longer distance due to difficult to control factors such as slicing, hooking and  compensting for drop.  A 1 ft by 1 ft target at 200 ft approaches the what seems believable.  More accurate than that...  I don't think so.

In summary, I tend to discount claims of slings being more precise than what the best professional baseball pitcher could acheive, as their skills are also products of lifelong practice.  They also comprise the very best few at the pointy end of the skill spectrum.   I'm sure the ancient ones were very, very good.  But I long ago learned to not believe everything I hear.  

(Sorry for being a critic, I hate critics)

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Feb 25th, 2004 at 3:28pm
DynaBee makes yoyos, a descendant of the sling.  That DynaBee ammo looks supiciously like my grooved glandes design of 3 years ago. However, I use the groove to accept a sling cord (no pouch needed). DynaBee says to us a normal sling.  There is a mention of an ancient grooved glandes design.



I'll send Chris that Larry Forsyth article to post. Dan

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by TechStuf on Feb 25th, 2004 at 4:03pm
No need to be suspicious.  If it's one thing I learned in product development, it's that in working in an area of high specificity, such as slinging, one will invariably find mirroring research.  Nice work BTW!  You may find it more advantageous to use a clip/cradle anchored to 2 sling cords whereby releasing one cord will dump the ammo from it's clip/cradle in such a way as to obtain the most efficient and clean release.  This may be aided by a lightweight flechette built into the clip/cradle assembly for complete flight stability during the duration of the sling event.  I have many other designs which, I am sure, must be being duplicated by someone somewhere at this moment!   (Well probably not some of it....some of it is quite strange!)

Good luck and keep em whizzing!


Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by TechStuf on Feb 25th, 2004 at 4:12pm
I thought I should add this suffixial bit of info....my choice in calling my ammo 'dynabee' was as a monicker in reference to the amazing 'Dynabee' gyroscopic wrist exerciser and was unaware of the 'dynabee' you are speaking of........suppose someone in a parallel dimension is slinging antimatter propelled buzzbombs at a wormhole in our neighborhood?  

(insert Rod Serling theme here)

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Johnny on Feb 25th, 2004 at 4:14pm
Larry
I have to disagree with you on this one. There are so many sources of information from the ancient writers spanning hundreds of years that testify of the accuracy of the ancient slingers. Alot of these slingers were shepherds, and they had sun up till sun down to practice. The Bible mentions in the book of Judges that the Benjaminites could sling at a hairs breadth, and not miss. Anyway, just my thoughts!!
Johnny

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Larry B. on Feb 25th, 2004 at 5:08pm
Johnny,

I'm regretting my previous post because I do not want to foster contention among us friends, but your post makes my point for me.  

Assuming a hair is 1/100 of an inch in diameter, are you saying you believe they were accurate within 1/100 of an inch with never a miss?  At what distance do you suppose?  

As soon as it is recognized that these accounts cannot be taken literally, we have to interject common sense and experience to try to arrive at what is reasonable.

I'm certain they were very, very good.

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Johnny on Feb 25th, 2004 at 5:18pm
Larry
It doesn't say how many times they hurled(1 or 100times), or the distance. The Bible is silent on that part.  I agree with you that they were really good. I think there is nothing in the verse that goes beyond common sense. Being human, they are prone not to hit every time.
Johnny

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Hondero on Feb 25th, 2004 at 5:20pm
[quote author=Dan_Bollinger link=1077592616/30#30 date=1077740914]There is a mention of an ancient grooved glandes design.

[/quote]

Interesting, can you recover it?

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Yurek on Feb 25th, 2004 at 5:24pm

wrote on Feb 24th, 2004 at 8:00pm:
Yurek, just a guess: if the Larry distance record is about 430 meters with a 2 oz stone, wich will be the record with 1 oz lead glans and the same launching speed? (The weight of an arrow maybe about 1 oz or less)....



I'm trying to guess. The record will be bigger if slinger's skill is similar to Larry's one.



Quote:
Second guess: what can we do to throw this 1 oz glans with the same speed that the 2 oz projectile.


I think, that nothing special, it require a smaller effort.


Quote:
Third and last: how can we increase the launching speed of a light proyectil.


We should put a more energy into the throw, useing the proper way and proper a lenght of the reduced sling.


Quote:
[quote]Who knows the answers will be the next world record winner  ;D ;D


Am I right? But now I'm afraid that I'm not only one who knows that secret ;)

It reminds the anecdote about Japaneses, who have invented something so small, that nobody can see it and nobody knows what it is.

By then I imagine the team of slingers who are brandishing with  invisible slings and are sending invisible projectiles. Finding them will be a big problem :D

But seriously, I think you are right, it is good to use as light projectiles projectiles as is possible for given slinger and sling. I think it is a very individual thing.

Jurek

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Hondero on Feb 25th, 2004 at 6:36pm

wrote on Feb 25th, 2004 at 1:17pm:
... upon observing brook trout remain nearly motionless against a fast moving stream, went on to produce many strange devices that appeared to exhibit negative drag or at the very least, vastly reduced drag!....

Here is a pic of the DynaBee Ammo .... accurate and fasssssst flight! [IMG]



Hi TechStuf, do you means that DunaBee Ammo has a vastly reduced drag? I´d like to know how is that. Can you explain it? Though trouts are not grooved  ;D it´s certain that they remain still in the streams, I don´t ´know how they do.

Welcome you and your ingenious devices.

Hondero

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Hondero on Feb 25th, 2004 at 6:48pm
Sorry, Yurek, you have failed the three questions  ;D. It was a previous theoretical exam to go to the Guiness. I think you are not prepared yet ???
My PC is given me trouble now, I´m afraid I have to stop. Tomorrow I´ll give the right answers... well I´m not sure of them...I´m not prepared either  ;D

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by TechStuf on Feb 25th, 2004 at 7:08pm
It gets quite complicated, but essentially, yes.  Gyroscopic precession and complex aerodynamics are both brought into play to increase the efficiency by which this deceptively simple shape propagates itself through the air.  I have since improved upon the shown example markedly but cannot reveal such here in this forum at the present time.  Here is a link to some interesting research into Schauberger's discoveries:

http://www.frank.germano.com/airship.htm



Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Feb 25th, 2004 at 8:09pm
Hondero, It is in the Blackmore article. Depending on which way I hold my head it says different things. The photo above is my interpretation of what Blackmore was describing.

"An Egyptian sling of c. 800 B.C. in the Flinders Petrie Collection at University College, London, is made of woven and plaited strings with a diamond-shaped pouch in the middle. One end of the cord has a loop which fitted over a finger and was retained in the act of throwing. A modern reconstruction of this sling achieved ranges of from 50-100 yd.  The strip of material could be replaced by two cords holding the pouch, and the latter was sometimes dispensed with, the bullet being grooved to seat it in the cords."

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Hondero on Feb 26th, 2004 at 12:33pm
Yurek, these last days I have been thinking about the subject of the weight of the projectiles and these are my conclusions in relation to the three questions. I dont´t know if they are right:

1- The one oz. projectile will be more restraining by the air that the one of two oz. because in spite of its smaller frontal surface, it is decelerated more due to its smaller mass: F = m x a. The deceleration is finally inversely proportional to the radius (for a espherical projectile). Perhaps however, being the projectile of 1 oz made of lead, and of stone the one of two oz., the effects are compensated and the same range is obtained or even a little more range is reach with the one oz. projectile.

2- The effort to send the one oz. projectile would be something smaller, although for so small proyeciles its weight is almost despicable with respect to the weight of the arm, that it has also to move at the speed of launching, driven mainly by the muscles of the shoulder, that are in charge of the effort. Actually I think that the max. speed of launching of both projectiles would not be very different. But there is another effect to consider, and is the tension in the cords due to the centrifuge force of the projectile, that would be inferior for the small projectile, being left the cords most loose, providing a bad turn around and less strong clutch of the projectile in the pouch, which would be translated in loss of projectil release speed. If in addition we are using a long sling for greater range, the air drag on the cords would even relax them more. Therefore, it seems that the lightest projectile would have more disadvantages, and would be necessary to also resort to very light slings.


3-  Considering all this, the problem is to evaluate if the small increase in the speed of launching, due to the smaller weight, compensates the other two negative effects of the greater deceleration and the worse behavior of the sling. This is the tactically important point, to determine the "border" weight of the projectile for a determined sling, below which the range would be lesser than with one heavier. By intuition I place this " border weigh" in 30-40 grams for a very light modern sling. The more light and the less drag it has, the border weight would be also smaller.


I don´t know if your opinions are similar to mine and in any case it is necessary to experiment. The worse thing of all will be to find the very small glandes afther been shooted, ha ha. It will be necessary to engage some meticulous Japanese people you mention  ;D.

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Yurek on Feb 26th, 2004 at 5:05pm
Hondero,


Quote:
1- The one oz. projectile will be more restraining by the air that the one of two oz. because in spite of its smaller frontal surface, it is decelerated more due to its smaller mass: F = m x a. The deceleration is finally inversely proportional to the radius (for a espherical projectile). Perhaps however, being the projectile of 1 oz made of lead, and of stone the one of two oz., the effects are compensated and the same range is obtained or even a little more range is reach with the one oz. projectile.


I think the 1 oz lead projectile has a better ballistic coefficient yet. Consider that lead density is 11.3 but the stone one is about 2.8. An air drag is proportional to cross-section area. Wait moment...

I just have calculated, for that for ball shaped ones, the cross-section area of the lead projectile is about 4 times less than the second one (the 2oz stone). Then drag should be 4 times less for the 1oz lead projectile, if we assume that the air drag coefficient is the same for both projectiles. How is really, maybe 3, or 2 times. I don't know, but If even that is a bit more than 2x then is enough yet.


Quote:
2- The effort to send the one oz. projectile would be something smaller, although for so small proyeciles its weight is almost despicable with respect to the weight of the arm, that it has also to move at the speed of aunching...


I agree with that point and the next one too. Well... it looks like we should play with unhealthy lead, yet. :) I haven't a big experience with lead projectiles. I used the 100 g ones because I used heavier stones and more fat slings before. The winter doesn't be friendly for experiments. Anyway that all is very interesting end exciting. Thanks Hondero.

Jurek

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Hondero on Feb 26th, 2004 at 7:05pm
Something has gone wrong in the fast calcules... My results are 4 times biger the drag force for the 2 oz projectil, and so the deceleration will be 2 times biger. But even that, is a great result  in favour of 1 oz lead glans.

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Chris on Feb 27th, 2004 at 2:15am
I tend to believe the sling was a very deadly and accurate weapon in the right hands.  Although stories can be embellished, the frequency and independence of the texts does paint a convincing picture for me.  Plus, certain sources, like Roman slinger qualifications are empirical, and are less likely to be skewed.  And, that qualification was something along the lines of a watermelon 9 out of 10 times at 200 feet.  

Now, I think that the effective, accurate range for a sling is around 150 feet.  I think after that point, your only aiming at an object in it's entirety (like a whole soldier).  

We also have to consider that bows at distances of over 150 weren't particularly accurate either (guns weren't either until maybe 150 years ago; "don't shoot until you see the whites in their eyes").  Plus, Ranged troops were never meant to engage infantry at such ranges either.  Long bows with enormous draw were meant to do clout shooting.  So both slingers and archers were all doing distanced shots (~30-45 degrees).  The whole concept of accuracy gets lots at this stage.  Ranged troops were meant to barrage infantry or cavalry, not snipe them off (although there are some accounts of longbow men being able to pic off escaping men at 1000 feet).  So it's not like we can say the sling is any better or worse than the bow.  In my eyes, I think they would be comparable.  

Another thing.  Ancient armies used huge numbers of slingers.  We know this from recovered texts and images, as well as ten's of thousands of glands recovered at ancient battle sites.  Bows existed, and were used... But why still use slings?  Sure they were cheap, but these militaristic empires had the resources to equip their men with bows if they wanted.   Perhaps they were a superior weapon in the day...  And we know from historical accounts that slingers often out-ranged their archer counterparts.  

There is too much historical evidence to deny.  The sling was the greatest weapon of war (ranged) 4000+ years ago.   It could make or break a nation, which is why the very best slingers were brought in from exotic lands (like the Balears).  

Chris

P.S.  I typed this really quick, so excuse any typos and nonsensical bits.  

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by David_T on Feb 27th, 2004 at 10:30am
VIVA LA SLING ;D ;D ;D  

BRAVO BRAVO SIR CHRISTOPHER!! TRUE TRUE

VERY EXCELLANT POINTS. IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A REAL LIFE FUNCTION AND PURPOSE I BELIEVE THE SLING WAS SUPERIOR. IF WE ARE TALKING MODERN DAY COMPETITION WITH A BUNCH OF FAT BOYS SHOOT'N      AT TARGETS THAT AIN'T SHOOT'N BACK--THE BOW IS MORE PRECISE.

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Yurek on Feb 27th, 2004 at 5:23pm

wrote on Feb 26th, 2004 at 7:05pm:
Something has gone wrong in the fast calcules... My results are 4 times biger the drag force for the 2 oz projectil, and so the deceleration will be 2 times biger. But even that, is a great result  in favour of 1 oz lead glans.


Hondero,

You are right, I have made the mistake. I don't know why I squared the ratio of the cross-sections areas. Indeed, it should be 4 but not 16. I will correct above post.

Jurek

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by David_T on Mar 6th, 2004 at 11:36pm
For anyone who may be interested in making a "Balaeric" type target.

In inches it would be: 1m = 39.37"

47 1/4" square   (1.2m)
A hole about 19 11/16" in the middle of the square (.5m)
The center of the hole would be 63" up off the ground. (1.6m)

We could all practice on the same size targets and have something to compare progress by?

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by mgreenfield on Mar 7th, 2004 at 9:48am
.....good to know w summer coming on.    Mite just paint one on back of garage.    What distance(s) from slinger to target??    Mite have to shorten it up to use tennis balls.  Then I gess make target smaller to compensate.   Hmmmmm.        Tnx!     MikeG

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Douglas on Mar 7th, 2004 at 4:46pm

wrote on Feb 26th, 2004 at 7:05pm:
Something has gone wrong in the fast calcules... My results are 4 times biger the drag force for the 2 oz projectil, and so the deceleration will be 2 times biger. But even that, is a great result  in favour of 1 oz lead glans.


I think the limiting factor is the available motive force. A rifle bullt weighs less than an ounce, yet has no problem approching and passing the ranges and speeds we contemplate.

For slingers, the weight exercise known as the pullover would increase that...?

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by Chris on Mar 8th, 2004 at 3:17pm
What you have to consider is that there is an optimal weight for a projectile.  You can't just say a half as heavy projectile will got twice or four times as fast.  It's sort of like a power curve for engines.  There is an optimal value where you maximize weight and speed for max power.  

Think about it this way.  If you have a one oz. projectile and you can throw it 100 mph.  Could you throw a half oz. projectile 200?  A pebble 500?  Even in a vacuum it wouldn't matter.  Your arm will reach a certain top speed regardless of projectile weight up to a certain level.  And then it might be worth sacrificing 5 mph to got for a 50% bigger projectile.  

Drag depends heavily on the surface area presented to the air.  A two oz. projectile does not have twice the cross-section of a 1 oz. projectile.   Thus you can get a double increase in mass with like a 1/2 increase in effective size.  

Use lead, or depleted uranium (you want to max out the denseness).  And throw the heaviest amount you can before it gets uncomfortable.  That will yield your best range.  

Chris

Title: Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Post by mgreenfield on Mar 8th, 2004 at 5:30pm

wrote on Mar 6th, 2004 at 11:36pm:
For anyone who may be interested in making a "Balaeric" type target.

In inches it would be: 1m = 39.37"

47 1/4" square   (1.2m)
A hole about 19 11/16" in the middle of the square (.5m)
The center of the hole would be 63" up off the ground. (1.6m)

We could all practice on the same size targets and have something to compare progress by?


FYI, I found ranges in an earlier post (forgot by whom, sorry!).  These are:

Paces  Meters     Feet
15                                   9.75         32
30                                  19.50        64
45                                  29.25        93
60                                  39.0         128

Men compete at 30,45,60 paces.  Women, children at 15,30 paces.    Scoring appears to be something like 1 point for hitting the wood, 2 points for hitting the hole.   Shooters get a practice shot & 4 "real" shots.

I think I'll start w tennis balls at a half-sized target and half-sized ranges.   I'll have a chance of hitting something before covering the entire backyard with big gravel.  ;D

mgreenfield

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