Trajans column depicts slingers holding their stones in their cloaks. I have seen German slingers doing the same. What reference, written or pictorial, indicates that slingers kept their stones in a leather bag(yes, I know about David and his shepherds bag!).

Yes, it is not easy to find an historical text or figuration of a slinger  with his bag. The slingers represented in the Trajan column are Roman and used that type of clothes that allowed to lodge the projectiles in its folds, which had  to be enough uncomfortable and not  reliable at the moment of throwing. Other people, like the Balearic ones, used clothes more reduced and the most appropiate would be the use of a bag. There is a source in regard to the bag of the Balearics, but I don´t remember it now. I see that in your illustrations you represent them with the projectiles in folds of the cloak, in the Roman way, but it seems to me unlikely. I must recover that source that I say. It either does not seem probable that they used a shield, that would be counter-productive for his great mobility as skirmishers, and much more at the moment of throwing. But it is not easy to find out as they were exactly the things, and your work is both very difficult and exciting, because it demands a lot of research and documentation. I like very much the Balearic slingers figuration from Angus McBride, that I imagine you know.

Hondero
Thanks for the reply. I would like to know the source for the bag. Try to find that if you can. I have wondered about the cloak and shield. It would seem difficult to use with the sling!
Thanks again
Johnny

Jonny,

I had seen your paintigs before you came here. These are beautiful! I also wondered how that guy is able to cary 15 kg or so glandes in his cloak when simultaneosly keeps the heavy shield, slings or loads the pouch. I'm sure a lot of people don't notice that, they simply are enjoying your art. Anyway I like them very much! I understand the convention.

Greeting,

Jurek

Thanks Jurek
I have wondered the same! That illustration is based on the slinger from Trajans column. I would like to make a shield and cloak to see if this is feasible or artistic myth! Has anyone tried to load with one hand? It would seem hard to do!
Thanks again!
Johnny

As far as I know, slingers rarely (or never) had shields.  They were primarily used as auxiliary troops under the Romans.  In really ancient battles (Sumerian, Assyrian, etc.), they were never meant to be exposed to cavalry or infantry, making shields an extra burden.  Do people know of any archers that carried shields and a melee weapon?  

Chris

Loading with one hand is not as hard as it sounds.  It just takes some practice.  One methodmentioned on the old forum was to simply dangle the pouch so that it rests open on the ground, and, using the ground as a "third hand", to place the stone in the center and take the slack back up carefully, and fire as usual.  This method is somewhat similar to the way we were taught to load a pistol one-handed if wounded at the U.S. Federal Law Enforcement Training Center.

There are other ways to fumble, or juggle a stone into a pouch, but this one is one of the better methods I have tried.

I read somewhere that "Peltast" was the name used to describe slingers, javelin throwers, archers, etc. because it was the name of the shield that they carried in ancient Greek times.  Some writer even commented on how funny it was when some peltasts got hung up by their shields which were hung across their backs, when trying to climb up something, and were just dagling there helplessly duirn a battle.  I also saw a picture of a hooded peltast with a sling, some small javelins, a round shield and short sword or dagger of some sort, as I recall.  The book claimed they were used a s skirmishers.  It was some sort of encyclodaepia series on ancient warfare that I found in the ARAMCO library at the Ras Tanura training in Saudi Arabia.

Magnumslinger,  I'd read that too.  As I recall, all members of the military were expected to participate in skirmish's.

The Bayeux tapestry shows what I believe to be a military slinger throwing a stone at some birds with his right hand while holding a long shield in his left.

Long tall shields with pointed bottoms were used as portable protection. The pointed end could be thrust into the ground for a man to hide behind. Perfect for slingers and archers who need both hands free.

As to Chris' question about archers carrying shields and other weapons, I do know that English archers in the Hundred Years War used, along with their enormous bows, long steel swords, and things known as ballock knives, long daggers, essentially.  I think that they also had small shields,  whose name I can't remember but will check up on. They were strapped to the arm, rather than hand held, so perhaps this is the way a slinger could have a shield.  And for a slinger it is very advisable to have other weapons in war time, because a sling is no use in close combat, and in the case of ambushes, they would be useless as soldiers.  Unlike English archers, who, in the final stages of the battle of Agincourt, drew their swords and jumped into the melee with French knights (and won, incidentally).  So other weapons and shields do not seem unlikely.
 As to the question of whether bags or cloaks are better, I have no idea; I always use my pockets or a small pouch, and have no idea about the advantages of a cloak.

Interesting discussion. Magnum, the name of Peltasta strictly refer to the throwers of javelins or short lances, of around one meter and a half, of which they took several ones behind the shield, that was of reduced size. They were skirmishers like the slingers, but different in general, like the archers, forming the light troops. The javelin of peltastas normally had a strap that allow to send them to greater distance, performing  like an flexible atlatl (it was called amentum). The pictures in armament books cannot be always taken like veridical source of information, because they are feed on very different and in general secondary sources. But who knows, maybe in some occasions there were slingers with shield, but it seems to me more probable in later time like the medieval one, where the military tactics would be something different. I also know an engraving from century XIV representing the Battle of Nájera, where it appears a slinger with a small shield facing several archers with longbows (without shields, English  :)).

Dan, it seems to me that the slinger from Bayeux tapestry  does not take a shield. He is a boy hunting birds and perhaps his extended left hand  is a little great and it is lent to confusion. You will remember that the drawing was discussed in the old forum and the picture that we had was very bad. I found a good one finally ;).

Hondero

Hondero, yes, I remember that old discussion. If you have a good picture I'd like to see it. If nothing else, for my files. Dan

I don't believe the slinger on Trajan's column is fiction. If you look at the details of the other soldiers it is correct with what has been discovered. I know it looks very strange to hold a shield, stones in your cloak, load with one hand and hurl at the same time! But these men grew up doing this every day. It is like anything, the more you practice, the better you get!
Johnny

Dan, I´ll put the photo here but... I´m interested in the prehistoric slinger under your name, ha ha. Can you put a bigger image too? Wich is the source?
Saludos

Sure, Anything for a slinging buddy! Everyone is free to use this image. It is large, but the file size is low. I scanned this image and cleaned it up from Arther Ferrill's "The Origins of War", p. 24.

"This depiction from the early Neolithic settlement at Catal Huyuk in modern Turkey shows that the sling was used in Neolithic times."


http://www.claycritters.com/sling/neolithic_slinger.gif

wrote on Feb 7^th, 2004 at 3:22pm:

I don't believe the slinger on Trajan's column is fiction. If you look at the details of the other soldiers it is correct with what has been discovered. I know it looks very strange to hold a shield, stones in your cloak, load with one hand and hurl at the same time! But these men grew up doing this every day. It is like anything, the more you practice, the better you get! Johnny

Jhonny, you are right, I´ve found two slingers in the column: one is without shield and other with it. Both with the stones in the cloak. Dont know if there are represented more slingers in the column but at least this one shows that Romans sometimes use the shield with the sling, though it seems difficult to throw strongly having an arm busy catching the shiels and the cloak with the missils. Of couse they would not win the Guiness this way but at least were well protected  ;D. Other thing is that the Balearics used the shield. They were much more efficient slingers and use to fight with little equipment and great performance.

Dan, the slinger boy of the famous Bayeux tapestry is a very little detail (few cm) in the border of the very long tapestry. It´s very difficult to find except for slings trackers  ;D




http://perso.wanadoo.es/hondero/Album/Bayeux.hondero.JPG

wrote on Feb 7^th, 2004 at 8:11pm:

Sure, Anything for a slinging buddy! Everyone is free to use this image. It is large, but the file size is low. I scanned this image and cleaned it up from Arther Ferrill's "The Origins of War", p. 24. "This depiction from the early Neolithic settlement at Catal Huyuk in modern Turkey shows that the sling was used in Neolithic times."

Hi Dan!

When I first saw your pic, I thought it was a face: a nose and a mouth. It really took a while before I realized it was a slinger...

Can it has a "doubble meaning" or is it just me?  ;)

Ulrica

Hondero. That is a much better quality than I've seen, plus it has some color, which helps even more. I take back what I've said. What I thought was the shield (on his left side) is really a black spot behind his left hand and his coattails at bottom left. I don't see a shield now.

Ulrica. It must be you! I don't see the face without great imagination.   ;D  I think this would make a good teeshirt or poster image for slinging activities.

Johnny, finally I´ve found the references about the stones bag of slingers. It´s not relative to Balearics as I thought but to others people as Greeks, old Libyans and the proper Romans.
Strabo mentions an interesting duel in the first Greek epoch between an archer and a slinger with his bag of stones. I´ll expand the subjet in a separate item because of  the interest of such a type of contest.
Diodorus describe the old Libyans (people from all north Africa) as fighting with three javelins and a sling with its bag of stones.
Finally, there is a gravestone in wich is shown a Roman man with a sling and the bag of stones.
But about Balearics, many times represented with the bag, I´ve found nothing. Have I dreamed it?
Bah, sure they used the bag¡

Hondero

Hondero
That is some great information!
Do you have a photo of the Roman gravestone ? I would love to see it! Also, which book of Strabo describes the archer/slinger duel? Thanks again for your great efforts!!
Johnny

Ulrica,

Yes, It is a hidden picture of a man's face! The nose is pointing to the left, lips tight together, the sling is the top outline of his nose--right?

YES!
I´m not the only one that can see that  ;D  *relief*

One can see it best on the small picture.

Ulrica

Sometimes I also see the left side of the face but sometimes I see the slinger. It swaps for me :)

Jurek

First I always see the nose, and after that I see the slinger just because I know he is there   :)

Quote:

I also know an engraving from century XIV representing the War of Nájera, where it appears a slinger with a small shield facing several archers with longbows (without shields, English  ).

 Ok, I still hold by my point.  The small shields, known as bucklers, were attached by way of a few long straps, to the right forearm.  There were made of steel.   and they were also used by fifteenth century archers, around the time of Agincourt (1415).  So theoretically, it would be possible to equip a slinger with the same type of shield and not hinder his ability to shoot, surely?  I will try to purchse a piece of wood and make a small round board, attach long straps and strap it to my arm.  Being left handed, I am sure it won't impede my shooting.

English, it´s more confortable to use the buckler for an archer than for a slinger. The first is more still when shooting. But as we said, the Roman slingers use the shield sometimes.

Slinger, man face.... psicologically meaninful, he he.. but apart from the opinion of the authors Arther Ferrill and Ulrica, what about a third interpretation like a primitive archer performing a dance seizing the bow by an end?
I´ve seen drawn some primitives archers that way  ::)

Hondero

Hi guys,

I am an ARMA member (www.thearma.org) and have done a bit of reading about shields.  A buckler is a small shield with a central handle which is held in a fist grip.  They were commonly used by knights, archers and other men at arms.  They were often hung from the sword hilt when not in use.  I think a small shield strapped to the forearm would be categorized as a targe.

In either case, I have not tried slinging stones while holding a shield but will try some experiments.  I think it should be fairly easy with a bit of practice.  I would immagine that it would be easier with a buckler.  Now to do this with a load of stones on a cloak would take a bit more practice I would think.  If I was using a shield I think a bag for stones would be the way to go.

Anyone interested in more info on sword and buckler use should check out the links below.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/SwordandBuckler.htm

http://www.thearma.org/essays/LeignitzerSandB.htm.org/essays/SwordandBuckler.htm


Enjoy,

Scott Adair

"An early thirteenth-century manuscript in the British Museum (Harl. MS. 4751, f. 8) shows the sling being swung preparatory to release. A scene showing a slinger attacking birds over a plough in the Luttrell Psalter of c. 1340  is interesting because the huntsman can be seen carrying a supply of stones in a fold of his dress."

http://www.slinging.org/images/SaxonSlinger.gif

Quoted from "Hunting Weapons" by Howard L. Blackmore (Walker & Company, New York, 1971).  Again, thanks to Dan Bolllinger for forwarding me this short, but informative article.
   
Chris

I do have some experience as a medieval reenactor. I have a cloak, which I wear over one shoulder in the old style.

Once I tried slinging while holding stones in my cloak. No can do, baby. Didn't go as far as trying to load one-handed. All the stones fell out when I did my cast.

Maybe this can tell us about what style of cast they used???

I went down to the creek this afternoon and hurled a few stones. I gathered several stones in the fold of my T-shirt, kind of like the slingers on Trajan's colomn. No problem! I could even load with one hand and get the stone off with no difficulty. Of course I hurl underhanded and that may make a difference. I can see with alot of practice, this form of holding your ammo would be very easy. Works for me!
JOhnny