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Message started by Jimb on Aug 12th, 2003 at 10:03pm

Title: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Jimb on Aug 12th, 2003 at 10:03pm
By now most of you have seen photos of glandes, the leaden sling bullets of the Romans. Even though they are of lead, they seem to be fairly light weight for a sling. I figured that they used them as a multiple projectile load against massed infantry. If launched high enough that would increase firepower quite a bit and increase the chances of a single pellet falling through an opening in armor to softer areas of the body. The biconical section of the projectile would wobble intitially on launching but should eventually level out into a point forward landing.

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by BillB on Aug 13th, 2003 at 1:38pm
Not to be argumentive, but is this just based on your reading, or have you observed them initially wobbling then straightening out?

I find it hard to believe they straighten out significantly unless they're given a spin somehow. Yet, it's quite obvious that they were used and were possibly "standard issue ammo" so they must have had some effectiveness.

Bill B.

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Jimb on Aug 13th, 2003 at 5:32pm
It's true that I have no proof of it. I've seen impact studies of shuttle cock type projectiles(shotgun slugs) that have little or no spin and will fly point forward due to tail drag if it flies far enough. A biconical projectile is basically a shuttle cock type projectile that just happens to have another point on the end of the tail. Most of the projectiles like this tend to wobble a bit as they are moving and then starts to stabilize with one end flying forward due to air drag. A football is similar and I've seen them wobble when thrown with no spin, but if they fall far enough don't they start to still the wobble so that one end comes point down? I can't imagine that the shape of the glandes are an accident. Balls or ovals are much easier to cut into molds and cast than oblong biconicals.

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Chris on Aug 13th, 2003 at 8:02pm
The shape is supposed to increase range, although my tests (documented in the articles section) didn't back that up.  However, this was the standard ammo Romans and others used, which leads me to think it was an advantage over simple, spherical ammo.  It’s obvious that the smaller tip would provide more impact energy and be more likely to go through armor or flesh.  

The deadliness of the sling has always been in question, at least with the people I speak to.  Could anybody here kill a man?  Maybe with a lucky shot…  I know I couldn’t.  But, these weapons were supposedly wreaking havoc in the ancient battlefield.  The Romans even developed a special tool to remove sling pellets from wounds.  

Firing many smaller shots just seems unlikely to me.  I think the effectiveness of one single lead shot is in question, so smaller, lighter ones really make me wonder.  

Chris

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by thrower1970 on Aug 21st, 2003 at 3:46am
To take a bit of a broader view of the period, look at the armor and shields of the armies opposing the Romans.  Leather was the primary component, with some chainmaille (very limited), some metal plates, and wood.  All of these things could stop even a fast missile.  I think that the shape was just as Chris said, a way to put more psi on the impact point.  Just like a flail had spikes or ridges, you have a relatively good flight missile with two points to cause some damage.  Add to the fact that it was heavy and could throw well if it got a spin (maybe with a course leather pouch and a certain release techique) and you have a good chance of hitting an exposed bit of flesh or skull, especially from the top.

When the Germanic tribes were at war with Rome, they used a few throwing axes each (double bladed, crudely designed) as the first attack into an advancing Roman line.  These axes normally hit shields or armor, being nothing more than a small pain to the Romans, but they got some hits in before they ever had to touch the enemy with there main battle gear.  The same could be said about the slings used by the Romans, a sapper weapon.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.

Ron

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by archeorob on Aug 21st, 2003 at 9:56am
The axes were only a "small pain" if you didn't get hit with one  ;).  

I've wondered about this one as well.  Do we have any idea as to the exact size of these lead missles (Chris, I'm looking at you)?  Were they the same size as the ceramic ones?  Just a thought as it would be interesting to cast some, and set up some targets to test this.  With my slinging, they would have to be big targets, but certain elements to reproduce armor could be used, and the damage observed.

Ahh, another good project for next summer!

Rob

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Jimb on Aug 21st, 2003 at 1:58pm
My take is that the sling is much like long range machine gun fire. Meant to throw confusion and fear into the enemy and throw the abillity to keep a formation together off. You have a variety of missles coming in at various trajectories, true most bouncing off of armor or shielding but some sinking through gaps in the same. Small heavy projectiles coming in at sufficient velocity will sink into the body. Most bullet studies that I have seen have the bullet tumbling after impact so that the blunt end is traveling forward after swapping (if the bullet doesn't fragment during the first effort to tumble) Being able to toss multiple projectiles with each throw gets more ligther weight projectiles up into the air causing more disorientation. There were hundreds of glandes found at Roman military battle sites volume of fire must have been a consideration.

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Chris on Aug 22nd, 2003 at 12:41am
I would say the roman glandes approached sizes of 2.5 to 3 inches on the upper limit.  I actually was in contact with a roman reenactor who was casting his own.  I believe his were around 1.5 inches.  

The following site lists them as 1.5 to 1.75 inches long:
http://www.historicalshop.com/sitecontents/earlyhistory/roman/ACRomanLeadproj.htm

Mr. Lloydian shows some that are about 1.25 inches long:
http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/weapons/sling.html

As for an idea of the payload of a sling, look at the size of these killer rocks:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-slingsforkids.html

Casting glandes:


Recovered roman glandes:

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by archeorob on Aug 22nd, 2003 at 9:23am
Sweet photos!!   :o I especially like the first one.  Those lead ones look as though they could make some serious dents in the armor.

Rob

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Kiwi on Nov 27th, 2003 at 4:19am
Re Glandes.If you thought rocks were wicked - lead glandes are the next step up in the ancient world of mega hurt!I have been meaning to do an article on them but just haven't had the time. Yes- glandes fly point first ; yes - they spin ; yes they have increased range.If you think of the flight of an American football you basically have the idea.You have to have a slightly modified sling release but that is no big deal.Glandes are fairly easy to make and are real easy to lose - and are really really dangerous!(even a 'slow' throw will cause a surprising amount of damage).I have found that almost all projectiles from a sling leave with a induced spin (toss an iregular shaped stone and listen for the humming sound).When I have the time I will sling in the article. Slinging rocks is fun but Glandes are scary!

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Yurek on Nov 27th, 2003 at 3:41pm
Kiwi,

Culd you tell what improvment (%) of a range the lead projectiles give towards regular stones?

Ben mentioned about the uranium darts. Uranium is almost 2 times more desnse than lead, so that must be real fun with it!

Jurek


Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by JeffH on Nov 27th, 2003 at 10:50pm
I will have to agree with Kiwi's assessment on the rotation of a stone on release.  Most of the rocks I throw are out of round in at least two axes, and they tend to whirr and hum with quite a bit of volume.  Some are downright loud.

As for glandes flying point forward, that sounds a bit specious.  In what way was this phenomenon proven?  A football is thrown with much more precision relative to the long axis than a glande coule possibly be.  This is of course just my opinion, but I would have to see some real test results to believe a glande could be thrown on axis like a football.

That said, lead with its high specific gravity makes for a very aerodynamic package no matter the shape.  I would not want to be hit with a glande no matter the orientation in flight.

jeff <><

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Hondero on Nov 28th, 2003 at 11:53am
This subject is very interesting. Kiwi, you are something right with respect to the point-first flight of the projectils rugby shaped. It is clear for projectils of clay or stone. The technique that I use consists of turning around in a  45º plane and launching in horizontal plane to the height of the hip. In that position the projectil leaves just with the point forwards, whenever we have held the ends of the sling with a little separation among them. Thus, in the turning around, the axis of the projectile is changing of position successively and the firing must be done when oriented forwards. In addition, as when releasing the projectile always leaves turning because it rolls on the pouch, it acquires a giroscopic effect that holds the position of the spin axis in the flight. Nevertheless,  this techniquie of launching is difficult to obtain with glandes due to its small size, that makes very difficult the control of its position in the firing. But it is not impossible, and in fact the Romans used to alter glandes, sharpening one of their ends, to facilitate the point-first flight. With it, they  attained to move the center of gravity towards an end and to stabilize better the projectile. I have some Roman glandes altered this way, if you want to see them I can put the image. Nevertheless, as you say JeffH, what they often wanted was precisely the opposite,  that the glandes flew in a erratic way, since then the destruction with its points was greater. There were many adjustments that the slingers made in glandes to obtain different effects.

Jesús

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Yurek on Nov 28th, 2003 at 5:53pm

Quote:
...this techniquie of launching is difficult to obtain with glandes due to its small size, that makes very difficult the control of its position in the firing...


So, if the fly of the lead elongated projectiles is very aleatory, then maybe using the ball-shaped ones would make sense? Of course if someone doesn't want make the terrible disaster in the enemy's body but only get the good ranges ;)

Jurek

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Hondero on Dec 2nd, 2003 at 2:06pm
For your purposes (the Guiness) ;) we will have to think about the best way. It dont´t think to try the end forwards flight is a good idea because this technique decrease something  the launching energy . It is better to shoot with all the power and that the projectile flies as it wants. Although you think that spherical projectiles would be the best ones because they would have a more regular flight, in practice it has been demonstrated through the history that are the elongated ones, rugby shaped, which attain more range.This shape was adopted yet with clay projectiles, when nothing about ballistic theory  was still known. Today we know that for the same weight of the projectile, the air dragging is proportional to the surface shown to the advance, and for that reason an elongated projectile, even flying not completely straight,  shows a smaller surface to the air than a spherical one and get more range. And although the axis of the projectile can oscillate something in the flight,  usually takes a more or less inclined position due to the gyroscopic effect that it acquires in the launching. The difficulty is to control that position, but never mind the position, it tends to stay unless we use a technique for launching it in a erratic way. So I think the typical glande is the best option to beat that record you are close. According my calculations, if I´m not wrong, with a glande the same weight your 320 meters stone projectil , you could increase the range in 35 %.
Animo, valiente
Jesús

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Yurek on Dec 2nd, 2003 at 8:22pm
Jesús,

First of all, thanks for showing interest and your words of encouragement. I begin to believe in my chanse, but first, must do the proper tests and get certainty. There is too much unknowns. So I'm not serious and declared myself pretender for the nonce. However my mind is working on various technical detailes more and more. I hope I will be able to materialize my ideas soon (about the sling design, making of the lead projectiles, an optimal mass of the ones, choice the way of measurements and the good spot for projectiles recovery etcetera...).

I'm going to consider your notes about elongated projectiles. I think my own tests can't be better than secular experiences :) About the range, I supposed before that it is from 30 to 50%, so it's not very different from your calculations, but I would like 50 ;)

Saludo,

Jurek

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by David_T on Dec 3rd, 2003 at 11:06pm
Does anyone have any thoughts on the importance of the size of the pouch? Would a smaller pouch add any significant or greater range to the projectile flight? I would guess that it would not make a very big difference.

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Jimb on Dec 4th, 2003 at 12:35am
Not sure, since most of the surviving slings seem to be stone throwers, and not glandes throwers. Due to lower density a larger stone must needs be thrown.

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Whipartist on Dec 4th, 2003 at 2:54am
Remember that air friction increases exponentially in relation to velocity.  I believe a specially made sling with tiny cable release cords (maybe 1/16") and a tiny cradle that could securely hold the gland but not have any excessive size- would improve your range greatly.  You'll never get your gland flying faster than you can make your sling fly.  Your sling won't fly as fast if it's bulky and not aerodynamic.  The more aerodynamic the better.  You need every inch you can get to beat the record.

I've dealt a lot with these issues as a professional whipmaker.  Interestingly enough, the faster a whip's action is, the less energy it transfers to the cracker.  All other things being equal, the slower actioned whip doesn't waste as much energy in friction loss and thus imparts more energy to the cracker.  Similarly, the denser the whip's thong, the more power the whip has.  The smaller and denser the thong for a given weight, the more power.  

If you made such a sling, you could easily encorporate a nice finger loop and release cord in the first foot of the cords next to your hand.

My newest sling has wider cords than the other ones I've made.  I can't quite get as much range out of it as a result.  

Interestingly, the Peruvians seem oblivious to these issues.  Some of their slings had very large cradles.
                                   
  Ben

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Yurek on Dec 4th, 2003 at 5:20pm
Sure, the lighter projectiles, the more influence of air drag of the sling. If the projectiles are heavy, then it isn't so very important because you must put a more energy for the mass acceleration relative to the loss caused by the air drag.

Jurek

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Hondero on Dec 6th, 2003 at 5:21am
I agree with you, Ben, in the design of the sling for glandes: the smaller the better, since if the pouch is much greater than the projectile, it takes much unnecessary friction in the turning around and launching, and even accumulates air pressure and not aim in a  regular way the shots. For that reason the peruvian and balearic slings  have a splited pouch, to avoid that pressure and to diminish the friction with the air, besides to obtain an optimal adaptation of the projectile to pouch. In the museum of my Web there is a light experimental sling for glandes done by me, who obtains a good adaptation to the projectile, although I am not an expert in this type of slinging.
By the way, the URL of my site has changed and I have extended it with some new subjects. The new URL is:

                      www.armas-primitivas.com

Saludos
Jesús

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Chris on Dec 6th, 2003 at 10:38am
I don't think a split pouch would decrease the air pressure around the pouch/projectile much (noticeably?).  If you think about how the pouch rotates in the air, it's moving sideways, which doesn't "catch" the wind.  The main drag is from the projectile situated in the pouch.  Sometimes people put holes in the pouch allowing air to escape from around the projectile.   But split (andean) pouches are pretty snug around the projectile.  Their advantage aerodynamically is that they are much smaller in surface area than that of a simple pouch, which reduces drag.  But I don't think the actual split-ness of the design is what reduces the drag.  Or does it?

Chris

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by David_T on Dec 6th, 2003 at 3:12pm
This is going back to an earlier question of projectile rotation.
I can almost guarantee that if anyone came with me to the "concrete pit" that I sling at, I could prove to them in less than 20 slings that everything slung from a sling will have rotation.

I would also say from observation that any elongated object will naturally tend toward a "point first" orientation. The spin caused by the snap at release will force it to have less wabble-- and the forward motion will naturally make the foward end stay forward.
I will have to obeserve a specific point next time I sling. That point is: If the projectile has one pointed end and one flat end, will the pointed end always be foward?
I believe from observation that the foward end will remain forward throughout the flight-- no matter if it is the flat or pointed end. The detemining factor of that is whether the point is up or down in the pouch. I am fairly sure that for my overhand release, if the piont is up as I am holding it in my left hand, it (the point) will be forward at release and stay that way. If the flat end is up in the pouch, it will be forward in flight, however; I think because of the increased drag, it tends to drive the projectile toward the ground.
As I said, I will specifically experiment next time out.

Any comments?

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by David_T on Dec 6th, 2003 at 3:53pm
Yurek,

You have got me interested in making those dense, smooth lead glandes. ;D

You need to have every inch or centimeter you can get!
Once you find the perfect size, shape, and weight, you should polish and then spray silicone on the glandes to reduce the friction as much as possible. Just a suggestion for your "fine tunning"

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Hondero on Dec 6th, 2003 at 7:57pm
OK Chris, I believe that we are  both saying the same. I said, or tried to say, that large pouches produce more air friction in the  turning around and launching, and that even accumulates air pressure (in the launching, not in the turning around) that makes difficult  the aim due to an irregular behavior of the pouch in the firing. If we pay attention, the pouch in the launching  catch air pressure, and is that moment the important one, since it is when the true acceleration is developed. Splits or holes in the pouch point to avoid this effect, although I agree with you that some Andean slings, mainly the present ones, use this design mainly to obtain a better adaptation of the projectile. Nevertheless other Andean archeological slings have a pouch  completely divided in two parts, just like the Balearic ones, that look for the effectiveness in the firing and accuracy by avoiding the effect of the air in them. There are others in mesh form that also persecute the same effect.
In general it is a good idea to avoid large pouches, even to send big projectiles. I remember that the Romans used a simple narrow leather strip to send stones of one pound, balancing the projectile in that special sling which they called "librilis", in concordance with the projectiles of a pound that used.

Saludos
Jesús

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Yurek on Dec 6th, 2003 at 8:45pm
David thanks for the advice. So far I have been sure that a smooth projectiles should go further. Recently I found some informations about aerodynamics of golf ball flight and I'm in doubt.

Contrary to intuition a dimpled ball travel much further than a smooth ball. Dimples (unevenneess) make a boundary layer of  air flow turbulent, which separates not so quickly like a laminar layer. As result, the wake is more narrow and the air drag smaller too. Simply say, the smooth ball fly as if  into a "condom made from air" ;)

The better explanation you can find on the site:

http://wings.avkids.com/Book/Sports/instructor/golf-01.html

So guys, what do you think about the dimples on glandes? ;) The smooth or rough surface is better?

Jurek




Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Chris on Dec 6th, 2003 at 9:06pm
I know that the dimples on golf-balls are for extending range and stability, but I never thought about adding dimples to sling projectiles.  It's actually a really neat idea and the research is already been done.  Maybe Jeff or someone with casting experience can make some really neat glandes and see how they fly?

Chris

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Yurek on Dec 6th, 2003 at 9:29pm
Jesús,


Quote:
large pouches produce more air friction in the  turning around and launching, and that even accumulates air pressure  (in the launching, not in the turning around) that makes difficult  the aim


I think you mean, the folded surfaces of the big pouch produce the lift (similar to wings of  biplane), which can change the trajectorey of the pouch (raise or lower, according to the attack angle). Am I right?  

I agree, it would make sense.

Jurek

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Yurek on Dec 6th, 2003 at 9:41pm
Chris,

I cast a few glandes today. They are just rather rough than very smooth:)  I hope I will test them tomorrow, but the weather is terrible :(

Jurek

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by JeffH on Dec 6th, 2003 at 10:04pm
My best guess here would be that one should find a plastic ball with dimples and use David T's concrete casting process.  This seems like the best idea to me.

I do, though, have to wonder how much difference it will really make for those of us who are not slinging for a distance record.

This seems to me like firing match style bullets with high ballistic co-efficients from an intrinsically low-velocity gun.  Somewhere there is a velocity threshold that the projectile has to exceed to take advantage of the better dynamics.  Like shooting a 165 grain match bullet made for a 308 or 30-06 fired in a 30-30 instead.  The difference of 500 feet per second or more renders the bullet much less effective.  I will check this in my ballistic software, but think I am right here. ( I just checked some things.  I do belive I am accurate here.)

When I was learning to hand load for my rifles, I discovered something important early on.  Velocity is has a greater effect on trajectory and energy than ballistic co-efficient; and in a big way.  It takes a whole lot of B.C. to equal an increase of just 100 feet per second.  Now, this was at velocities from 2,400 to 4,000 fps, but I suspect it would hold true at sling velocities as well.

This all means that I don't think dimples are going to help us so much at the low velocities we have to deal with.  The improvement over simple spheres would not equal the improvement of the sphere over the jagged rock by any means.

jeff <><

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Chris on Dec 7th, 2003 at 12:56am
Well, golf balls aren't super high velocity, but manufactures put dimples on them.

Jurek, why are the finished glandes so rough?  I would have imagined them to have a very smooth metallic finish.

Chris

Title: deviatiRe: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Hondero on Dec 7th, 2003 at 12:53pm
 

Yurek, really when the pouch is greater than the projectile, it takes air inside in the launching, making unpredictable deviations in shoots.
As far as dimples in glandes, I am afraid they do not work ::). They work very well in golf balls, that are much more light in relation to the volume, due to the turbulence effect that you mention.  Imagine a lead golf ball with dimples  :D... it doesn´t work, sure.

Jesús

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by David_T on Dec 7th, 2003 at 2:10pm
To dimple, or not to dimple, this is the question ;D I love the discussion here. We will have Yurek set a world record yet!!  Go Yurek!

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Yurek on Dec 7th, 2003 at 6:46pm
Chris,

For making my mold I used common plaster, the paterns I fashioned from plasticine (quite nicely). I made only two shapes: the ellipsoid one and the drop second one. The mold was two-piece, so the last projectiles had got some feedhead (the frill ?) which I had to file smooth. The used materials didn't give the ideal surface but it was not so bad. It was my first experimental teeming. As result, I got 5 drops (90 g) and 5 baseballs (exactly 100 g).


Jesús,

Anyway, sure you are right, the smaller pouch is better due to aerodynamics. But about an influence of dimples (or rouhness)
in glandes flight I'm not convinced yet. I think the "lead dimpled golf ball" should have smaller air drag than smooth one, because
mass have no relation with air drag. However I agree that the range increase isn't so big for heavy "lead golf ball" because it carries much more kinetic energy relative to air drag, than a real lighter golf ball. So maybe the dimples would be en overstatment for lead glandes. But It follows me to think that a bit rough surface of glandes is not so bad and it isn't worth polishining or somethin like that. I hope my explanation is clear. Mayby I'm wrong.


David,

Thanks, I'm open for every support and I would be gratefull.

Today I tested my 10 glandes on my "measure spot" with the just made special sling for them. I was a litlle bit stressed because I had got only 10 tries. First I slung the "drop glandes" and as I expected they was getting the wild fly from the pouch, almost all ones flew with noise. But anyway the "drops" travelled pleasantly far relative to good stones even, they vanished. Next I tested the rugby-shaped glandes. They all flew  
completely voicelessly. Folks! I slung too flat but what fly it was! Simply pure delight for my eyes. It is quite different than slinging stones. But I didn't know where they touched down.

I slung from 500 m (1640 ft) distance to the viaduct. Look please at the picture (that one was taken from 250 m to the viadust in October):

http://www.slinging.org/forum2/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=1;action=display;num=1065094439;start=0#0

I finished quickly and impatiently come back to my wife who hidden behind of the white ruin wall observed the aim zone.
Guys, she "raported" me that  heard no flied projectiles, but...,
but... she heard... one clear... knock into the steel part of the viaduct! She is sure that was the my shot.

So it looks like I'm ready! Probably :)

Jurek

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Chris on Dec 8th, 2003 at 1:14am
I think your right on Jurek.

Chris

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Hondero on Dec 8th, 2003 at 5:18am
You are completely right, Yurek, in all you say about dimpled glandes. It´s almost indifferent  the finish of their surface in relation with the reach, since the main effect in the air drag is the shape. Congratulations for your first experience with glandes. It is not really amazing to throw glandes? The problem as you say is the  mesure of the range, since glandes are invisible in the flight. The bridge on which you shoot is a solution. Another is to throw from a distant spot on a lake so that the impacts fall in the border of the water, and to arrange a refuge here to the observer. How is the special sling for glandes that you have done?

Jesús

Title: outrelRe: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Yurek on Dec 8th, 2003 at 6:21pm
Jesús, slinging the glandes was for me a great and amazing experience, indeed. It's a pity they don't grow on trees, like acorns :'(

I may not tell you about my sling for the glandes, because it's my top secret weapon ;) But seriously, It is no high tech design. Just the small piece of rather soft leather, 3 cm wide in the center section which is 5 cm long. On both sides of this rectangular section are mild half-elliptical narrowings. The all pouch lenght is 13 cm, in the central section there is the 4 cm longitudinal cut (slit) for better keeping projectiles. The ends of the pouch are strenghten by the small piececes of leather (fixed by glue) and they have the small punched holes for fixing cords.

The cord diameter is 3,5 mm, it's the double core pulled out from 6 mm plaited rope. I have kept the release and loop ends with a bit orginal braiding, for my fingers comfort. So the thumb leather loop and release knot are on short sections of the full orginal rope.

The lenght of that sling (from midle of the pouch to the knot) was 120 cm (~47") durring the test, I can adjust the cords lenght by the special "short-knots" situated close the "full rope" sections. I think, that's all.

Jurek

.

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by magnumslinger on Jan 23rd, 2004 at 5:28am
Dear Jurek,

I hope you will break that world record someday!  I grabbed a copy of an old Guiness World Records book (I think it was in Bali last year.  I'm going back there in a couple of weeks on holiday, so I can see if it's still at the used book store there.  (Somewhat likely, because they have had a big lag in tourism lately, and not many tourists probably want to read an outdated world record book!)  It had the slining world's record along with a picture of the guy, sling and ammunition used.  It may help you to know that the "sling he used did not resemble anything that you or I might think of when we try to picture a "sling", at least not in the conventional sense of the term.  From what I can recall, I think he used some gizmo that looked like a 5 foot-plus-long cable thing with a push-button release similar to that used in remote camera photography (where the photographer can take his own photograph by pushing the cable wire button with his thumb), or to using a mechanical bowstring release assist in modern archery. The release mechanism was hooked to the middle of a very long DART, which somewhat resembled a modern military mortar round in shape.  It was a very elongated, aerodynamic dart with a lot of glide factor, from what I could see.  Perhaps you already MAY, or soon SHALL hold the world distance record for a CONVENTIONAL sling and glande?  Why not contact Guinness, and see what THEY think regarding this as a possible separate category for a world record?

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Hondero on Jan 23rd, 2004 at 12:59pm
Magnum, I´m very interested in that modern sling-like thing. Some times I´ve thought in such an optimazed sling for competition. Please, can you draw the thing as you remember it? :)

Hondero

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Yurek on Jan 23rd, 2004 at 4:08pm
magnumslinger,

Welcome on the board!

Thank you for the interest and informations about GWR.
The forum is running faster and faster, so I can't  keep up with it with my sluggish English ;) I read the all posts but I'm not able to write as much as I want. I wonder how your mentioned sling looks. Inspired by Whipartist I have made one from special 1.1 mm cord. It can raise 90 kg! Hope to try that and the glandes this weekend.

On Guinness record, over six weeks ago I sent to the Guinness World Records in London the application form via their website. According to their promise I already should get the decision, terms and informations about the newest record. But so far there is no answer from GWR :( I know from editor of the Polish G's Book that the guys in London are overwhelmed through a lots aplications. So sometimes they don't replay quite or are late. The editor advised me that it would be good to repeat the aplication and to quote in it the exact name of the last record and detailed informations about that. It woud be the best to take them exactly from the GWR data base or from the some English version GR Book. It should make easy grading the attempt and  urge the guys from London to fast approval.

So, I would be grateful for such kind informations.

I'm also curious of different variation of a sling design. Maybe it would be easier for you to use the scaner than digital camera if you would like to put pictures here?

Greetings,

Jurek


Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Whipartist on Jan 23rd, 2004 at 6:09pm
This is very interesting.  The Guiness book I saw was from the late 90's I believe, and had no pictures at all.  It was a bigger thinner book than most of the Guiness's I've seen.  It described the sling as 50" and that the record was made with a 2.5oz "dart."  I looked it up on purpose, that's why I went to the library ;)  

I've often imagined what it would look like and what tricks this guy used, and hence I came up with the split cradle, cable sling.  I've also thought about archery releases.  But this sounds even more "hi tech."  

Actually, I'm surprised they gave this guy the world record.  That thing hardly sounds like a sling to me.  Did it have a cradle?  Maybe you could call it a Cestrosphendon, but I think a sling must have a cradle.

Do you remember what year the book was?  I'm very interested in seeing those pictures, or atleast a drawing.

                                           Ben  

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by magnumslinger on Jan 30th, 2004 at 4:01pm
Dear Ben/Whipartist,

(Sorry about the delay in answering!  I've been chasing tickets, documents, ect. for my work visa, preparing for my holiday, etc., so have neglected my internet activities for the past few days.)  I'll be in Kuta where I believe I saw the pictures (hope it wasn't Bangkok, but I don't think so!  Funny how holidays/visa runs all seem to run together for an expat itenerant prof! : :-[

Anyhow, I will try to buy the book if I see it and scan the picture and send it to you (or I could try to photocopy and fax it), if I can find the book!  I agree that it doesn't seem to me to be what would normally be thought of as a sling by most slingers!  Your idea sounds a lot better for a conventional modern sling design!  I don't remember what year it was, but the picture caught my eye, and like you, I was also surprised  that they considered the device to be okay for the record without qualifying that it was a special category of distance-only "sling".  Looked more like some super whiz kid's high school science project after the feds confiscated his "improved" lap top hydrogen bomb prototype :o!  

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by magnumslinger on Jan 30th, 2004 at 4:15pm
Oops!  I also forgot to mention that the thing most definitely did NOT have a pouch of any sort, but rather a sort of hook like the one that holds a key ring in place ("G-clamp" or swivel opening  design ???).  The release mechanism seemed to slip back a retaining pin, or hing, as best as I recall, and unhook, sort of the reverse function from that of a "tailhook" on a carrier-launched navy fighter jet.

I suppose it was as much a "sling" as a tied stone or bolos can be considered a prototype ("proto-sling"?)/variation of the sling, respectively, but I think a separate category for a "real", regular, or  CONVENTIONAL slinging record might well be warranted, and that the Guinness staff might be receptive to such a re-categorization ;)?

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by magnumslinger on Jan 30th, 2004 at 4:24pm
Dear Hondero,

(once again, sorry for the time lag in answering you!)  I will try to either send a drawing or copy of the photo for posting for you and whoever else may be interested in the design, if I can find the book again in Bali!  Thanks for also being interested in it.  I hope it will help you in your special category slinging, as I would also like to try it out!  I have been interested in, and using several quasi-sling devices, and find that many are quite potentially useful, such as the Chinese "meteor ball" weapon, the Mongolian weighted lasso/lasu, and "string bullets"/pocket "arrows", etc.

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by magnumslinger on Jan 30th, 2004 at 4:33pm
Dera Yurek,

Thank you for your kind welcome, good suggestions and message.  I will try to find as much information to help you achieve the record as I can. If  I were you, I would DEFINITELY keep reapplying to whatever multiple addresses you may be able to obtain for the Guinness people, as that is the best way to beat overworked bureaucracy and the law of averages: resubmit, resubmit, RESUBMIT!!! ;)  I'll soon be on the ground and stalking the used book stalls in the Kuta/Legian area hunting for that book!  Thank you for all of your great posts that I have enjoyed reading so much!

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Jan 31st, 2004 at 11:06am
Terrific discussion! I'll add comments that apply to many of the posts above.

I have made a glandes mold from aluminum, they are football shaped.

Research shows that most Roman glandes were 24-25g. Very small. I think the multiple glandes idea is viable, but still not proven.

One theory for the elongated shape is that they stay put in the pouch better than a sphere, making for faster spinup.

Researchers label glandes as Type I (football) and Type II (acorn). I think they are wrong. I think there were all double pointed. The so-called 'acorn' shapes were merely a double-pointed one that struck something hard and squashed its point. No description, drawing or mold for an acorn shape has been found, as far as I know.

Pouch release does indeed spin the projectile, my observation says.

A flat shaped glandes will 'buzz' when thrown and spun.

My theory for the flattened shape is that they wanted the 'buzzing' when they fly. Hannibal said his elephants were annoyed at the buzzing of slingstones.  The torrent of slings was used by generals more to break discipline and induce fear in the opposing troops than to do actual damage. It they heard the 'buzzing' of a near miss it would have almost the same effect as a hit. Very demoralizing, and very effective.

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Chris on Jan 31st, 2004 at 7:59pm
Many roman ones are small, about 3.5cm (1.4 in).  They weigh around 40-80 grams.  However, other slingstones are as big as tennis balls.  The latter type was found primarily in the middle east and were made of stone.

Chris

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by magnumslinger on Feb 1st, 2004 at 12:35pm
I have been checking bookshops today in Kuta, and haven't found the Guinness Wolrd record Book (for the slinging picture) yet.  Some stores were on back streets before, and I haven't been able to find them yet.  Stores here often open and close and reopen again sporadically, so it's hard ot tell whether a business is still here, but I may also have seen the book in Yogyakarta on Java, and I always visit both islands, so I'll look there, as well, and then look again here when I return on my way out if I don't find it here the first time.  I'll also see, about the camera, etc. for the picture of what I like to use personally to sling rocks and bullets/glandes.

I have found that slinging three egg-sized rocks or three-to-four oz lead egg-shaped fishing sinkers is very effective from a fairly large-size triangular net pouch (about the size of my hand, only about half longer).  When throwing very large bola-type weighs (+/-10 oz.), I only need two of these projectiles to give me the lateral spread advantage of a "shotgun" effect, but if hunting with the sling, I would recommend using the three 3-4 oz.-or-so stones.  They group and triangulate well, covering a reasonable area to increase multiple, or at least single hit probability out to several meters.  Since small game is generally engaged at pretty close distances, especially with primitive weapons, I would use a shorter 1.5-to-two foot sling, and a simple over-the-back centerline-preserved hanging carry while stalking the animal, with the pouch and stones/bullets resting dead center of my spine and near the small of my back, or slightly higher, and my thumb resting somewhere near my "rooster tail" crown or the center of the back of my neck.  Then, when the time came, I would bring the slinging hand straight up overhead, then arcing down violently when the pouch had cleared the back of my head (OUCH! if you don't!  you have been WARNED!!!), my knees bending, my front foot bending in a "falling" trigger step (as when executing a proper left jab in boxing to bring the body full weight violently forward, adding most of the force to the punch, or when using "gravitational marriage" when throwing a knife or spike) and bowing violently from the waist through the release, and bringing the throwing thumb directly down my centerline past the spot a couple of feet in front of the tip of my nose.  All of this not only maximizes the power of the shot, but cuts the throwing/movement time down tremendously to prevent spooking the game/alerting an attacker thant you are not just scratching the back of your head or rubbing your neck, takes full advantage of instinctive gross motor movements in a self-defense or "deer/buck fever" situation when fine motor skills tend to go "bye-bye!" and is safer since it makes it harder for the stone(s) to fly out prematurely in a harmful direction with any power, thereby harming anyone or anything seriously.  Furthermore, it increases the chances of consistent throwing, since the gross movement at the waste, shoulder and elbow is harder to unintentionally vary, deviating from the centerline.  Therefore it is easier to concentrate on the vertical release timing, and therefore, tends to leave only the vertical timing/aiming point as the only remaining major variable in the equation.  I have cut the training time and increased the safety factor tremendously when teaching new student slingers this method.  But I use it, too, and would tend to prefer this method for many situations, anyway.  It also gives the slinger a GREAT physical workout in all the right places for several other sporting activities, as well!

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by Yurek on Feb 1st, 2004 at 6:56pm
magnumslinger,

Thanks for your effort and the interesting description! Have a nice journey!

Jurek

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by magnumslinger on Feb 2nd, 2004 at 10:47am
Dear Yurek,

Thank you for the encouraging words!  I usually like to use my longer slings, and go for maximum power and range, but lately I've been using the shorties more, because for quick response situations, I think they are the most practical.

I think I can see why the best slingers from some ancient countries carried three slings:  the short one for short distances (I also think a quick single underhand shot with a short or medium sling can be very effective in the same situations, but requires more practice to be accurate with it.  I could smash rocks into pieces against boulders using both of these throws even with a short sling and no windup in the case of the overhead "bowing" throw, which surprised me), a long one for extreme range and a medium length one for general use.  Of course, you are living proof that the longer ones are best for making the longest shots.

I think that the medium length sling offers a great compromise between the advantages of long and short slings, and is probably the most versatile sling to use for all but the longest, or conversely, the quickest close range shots.

The short one is probably the quickest and easiest to bring into action in a close-in defensive situation in combat, so it would make sense that even the top slingers who could throw hundreds of yards with a longer sling would still keep one handy as a sort of side arm.

One could be carried in modern times into a stressful and potentially dangerous situation (as a better alternative than being unarmed and defenseless) undeneath a jacket slung casually over the shoulder "rat pack" style, but pinched between the index and middle fingers, leaving the thumb and index fingers holding the release node and retention cord.  If things escalate, the jacket can simply be allowed to drop back over the shoulder and fall to the ground, leaving the short sling unobstructed, and ready for instant use, if neccesary, using that "bowing" throw mentioned above, or maybe a quick sidearm shot.

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple projectiles?
Post by magnumslinger on Feb 2nd, 2004 at 11:30am
Dear Dan,

Your reasoning and example of Hannibal, has me convinced that you may well be correct regarding at least one reason  that the glandes were often flat, although they were probably also easier to quickly lay into a pouch while under the pressure of combat, and retain in the sling pouch until the intended moment of release.  I think that in the ancient world, as in the modern one that a high volume of massed suppressive fire was more useful for light infantry than carefully aimed sniping, in most cases.

There are apparently stories of ancient Trojan archers deliberately picking off single Greeks and vice versa (Paris the Trojan and Ulysses the famous Greek archer, for example), and vice versa, and of unbelievably outnumbered Benjaminites allied with the tribe of Judah presumably doing the same to their Israelite enemies in the civil wars of the time, whom they badly  defeated in many battles using slings and bows, before being eventually being all but wiped out over time, as a result of being so consistently and badly outnumbered over a long period of time.  But these were probably the exception to the rule.

In modern warfare most soldiers are armed with auotmatic weapons intended primarily for providing high volumes of demoralizing fire at relatively short distances, and the VAST majority of those shots STILL miss, although many of these rifles (such as the M-16-A2 and G-3) ARE indeed capable of making extremely long range shots (800M-PLUS!) with good accuracy, but only as a SECONDARY FUNCTION!  Most of them are used mostly in fully automatic or three-shot burst mode.

In ancient warfare, I think that hearing a shot coming would be far more confusing and demoralizing than seeing an arrow flying in, because of the uncertainty factor in the former case.  In the latter, one could dodge the arrows, or put up one's shield in the appropriate direction, at least with some chance of success (as depicted in the movie "Brave Heart", etc.), but an invisible glande humming or buzzing past buzzing would seem a whole lot scarier to me!  And if they spooked the enemy's cavalry (horses, chariots, elephants, etc.) they would probably really be a potentially valuable  tactical asset in ancient warfare.

Title: Re: glandes single or multiple  (FOR YUREK!)
Post by Jean Lloyd Bradberry on Feb 3rd, 2004 at 11:36pm
For Yurek:

I would suggest you try some nylon commercial fishing net and net line.  There are many kinds and sizes of this stuff, and you can get some that is very light and doesn't drag perceptibly.  It is stiff enough to avoid tangling, and yet comfortable enough not to hurt your fingers.  Being made to resist snagging on razor-sharp rocks, it is extremely durable.

You can use the thickness that is about the same as twine, and choose among many thicknesses within this range.  For the pouch for a long distance sling, I use about .5-to-1 cm. per square mesh woven nylon net of about the half-to-twice the same thread thickness as the cords.  It doesn't much matter, because this stuff is SO lightweight and strong, and drag is so low as to be practically a non-factor!

Cut the pouch into an oblong square almost the same size as the glande when wrapped around it, but a little longer, so that it will stay in the pouch.  This can easily be done through trial-and-error!  Tye the retaining cord to the near end of the pouch by weaving it through the mesh squares, forming a "scoop" shape.  ONLY tye the release cord to the CENTRE mesh thread/cord, or if off-centre due to an even number of squares used, to the thumb-side square thread/cord nearest the centre of the pouch.  This will result in a roughly triangular appearance to the sling, which will allow it to open up well on release.

If desired, you may also trim the "wings" or release-end corners of the triangular sling further to decrease potential drag, and return symmetry to the shape of the pouch, but this may affect the retention factor somewhat, depending on your particular winding and release technique.  BTW, I noticed that you seemed to be using a "full fist" grip on the sling with a pinky grip on the release node/cord.  

I personally find that greater power may be added by changing to a between- the-thumb-and-forefinger "pinch" grip, and using a wrist loop to take felt pressure off of the fingers of the throwing hand.  It seems to allow for an "looser wrist", allowing for faster accelerating rotations on the windup strokes than other methods I've tried.  You may also wish to experiment with different types of light gloves and cord thickness combinations.  Good luck on bagging that world's record, once again!

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