The world, did you know, is flat - you can put it on maps, and they are flat, and people used to think it was flat, and they can't have been wrong.  And when I look from a normal earth-bound position, it seems pretty obvious that the world is flat, wouldn't you agree?  It must be true.  And the disc is a perfect thing: CDs, coins - all these things are flat discs, and they are great.  Ergo, the world is flat.
 Anyone see where I might, maybe, be going with this?

??? I think we see the world flat is because we are small, but the world is big. When you look at mountains very far way, they are lower. And the sea. If the world is flat, we will be able to see things opposite it. ???

but you can :o you just need a Very good eye and a very clear day to be able to see the chalkcliffs of england from the belgian coast  ;D

So we can prove that the world is not flat.  Can we not, perhaps, see this as a metaphor......?

Quote:

Anyone see where I might, maybe, be going with this?

I don't know......speaking metaphorically.....


Round and round in might circles..... maybe?



TS

well I'll bite,  

I was watching an interview with an Captain of a German U-boat.  He was saying that you do not know fear untill your in one of those tin cans with depth charges going off around it.  And went on to say they all believed in God after that.  Funny how fear will do that to people.

;)

Good point, Roy.  Funny how that seems to happen every so often....


What happens even more often....and is sad, really,  is the number of those for whom fear has the opposite motivation.  It motivates them into giving up hope, denying truth and becoming enemies of God.


All because of pride, envy, and fear.  


Human faith, untested by fear......is no faith at all.   And Faith destroyed.... Nay, even reversed because of fear is, at it's essence, a plea for judgement.


One of the hardest facets of human nature to overcome, is prejudice.  And those who judge large swaths of humanity by each, it's commensurate number of turds that employ devious craft to float to the top, is a most traitorous kind.



http://www.hornes.org/theologia/content/mark_horne/what_is_the_worth_of_666_talents_of_gold.htm


http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/sixpointedstar.html


http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html


http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/09/297062.shtml


http://www.red-ice.net/specialreports/2005/05may/zionismorigin.html




TS

Fear is what drives people to "God", not away.  Fear makes people unable to appreciate the grandness of the universe - unable to see that there is no reason we can see for the life we live, unable to see that we are nothing (and also everything), unable to see that death is nothing to be feared, but that there is nothing at the end.  Religion always tries to give people hope.  I'd rather live a life, a healthy life, and have children, without resorting to higher cause or looking for reason.  

 One of the main flaws with religion is that people who are afraid, in situations like you describe, Roy, turn to it.  You are chemicals, nothing more and nothing less than a bacterium, nothing more and nothing less than a 1000-year-old oak, nothing more and nothing less than a carbon atom.
 Faith?  Faith can piss off and die.  I'd rather be happy, thanks.

Quote:

Faith?  Faith can piss off and die.  I'd rather be happy, thanks.

And that's the flat truth!



You and millions of others.  Good luck with that.






TS



P.S. It is possible to have both Faith and Happiness.....although it seems clear that many who search for such an ideal as you espouse, english, truly have neither.


May the One True God make visitation upon you in a dream.  An unforgettable one.

right i think we can lock this one now... ::)

I flat out agree.


TS

I do agree, but I think I better not not yet do it.
The thread asks for it though.

Started just to provoke it seems, not related to slinging or other primitive weapons or related subjects, getting heated, getting near to personal insults, .....

But I rather have English and Techstuff do the discussion here than in all subjects they do post in.

But it is a thread on the edge of being locked  8)

Willeke

all sort of fun huh?  well it does not matter what I believe or how it differs from Tech, or English.  Now I can say I enjoy both of your posts.  The thing is though neither of you can prove anything totally in black and white.  Both of it is faith based.  Theres a lot of holes in both of your arguements, where logic fills in the blank spaces.  I can prove that the World isn't flat, its been done.  But with religion and evolution theres holes, and to one another you both will be wrong.  At the end of it all I guess we'll find out who's right.  One thing is certain I do believe that your not going to convert one another.

I for one, applaud Willeke's position.  


And Roy is right.  



Uncomfortable concepts and or truths, should not drive us to want to hunt and kill our fellow sling brothers.  



Holes, holes...everywhere holes....and too many of the looping kind.



What can you do?  Keep jumping into them.....or fill 'em in.....



I for one appreciate the opportunity to engage in informative discussion without resorting to utter juvenility.



Which is what this forum, rare as it is...... is all about.




Peace,


TS

Willeke,

This time, it seems to me, English and TechStuf are keeping their "cool".  English's statement about what to do with faith ... is a statement about his belief, and actually is not (so I believe) an insult to those who have faith.

Actually, of course, all people have a faith of some sort.  I can no more prove, in a deductive sense, that God is, than English can prove, in a deductive sense, that God is not.  Both English and I take as an article of faith that (me) God is, and I am accountable to Him, and my highest honor is to do what is right in obedience to Him; or (English) God is not, and I am accountable to no one but myself, and my highest honor is to do what is right in obedience to my own sense of self-worth.

Hey, English, I recognize that I am "putting words in your mouth" -- let me know if I have misstated your position, I am inferring it from my understanding of various things you have written, colored by what I know of other people who seem to have similar beliefs -- Thanks!

this time ?  :-/ so this has happend before ?  :o

Back to the beginning:

While you could have been going anywhere with it, the first thing that popped into my mind, is that,
"anything can be proven" though is not necesarily true, or that there are multiple truths.

not much time now, i'll explain myself later.

Taiki,
Yes, this sort of thing has happened a couple of times before.  Sometimes it has been fun and educational, sometimes it has gotten rancorous and been stopped by a moderator.  This time, it seems, it is staying civil (even if a bit heated).

All,
As has been noted before by a number of people:  Deductive logic can prove ANYTHING.

Deductive logic is entirely dependent on correct premises.  One can begin with a wrong premise, and produce an entirely correct argument leading to a conclusion entirely at odds with reality.

That is why logicians call a logical argument "valid" or "invalid", not "right" or "wrong."  A "valid" argument is correct in its form, and (IF its premises are correct) yields a result in accord with reality.  This, perhaps, is what lies behind Wolfgang Pauli's critique of an idea that he did not agree with: "That is not right.  That is not even WRONG!"  Pauli was saying that the arguments on which the idea was based, were not valid.

That one can deduce anything by choosing one's premises carefully, simply implies that one must examine one's premises for their truth (their agreement with reality) as part of evaluating the correctness of a valid deductive argument.

This is fun.  I'm going to have to spend more time in this part of the forum.  Thank you all for keeping this civil: we will all learn more from even a heated (but civil) debate, than from anyone's ranting.  And just to make sure: I have seen some spirited statements in this topic, but I have not yet seen any ranting.

Faith keeps the world going round. All over, people want something to guide them, they create a faith, have faith to guide them. Its consolation, solace.
Thats my opinion anyway.
I am happy as long as my faith is not broken, my faith being that when I wake up, the trees will still be there.

wrote on Apr 10^th, 2006 at 4:07pm:

this time ?  :-/ so this has happend before ?  :o

Been going on since about 33AD. :-/

English and tech i have no skill in verbal fights. I hate them. If we evolved or where gifted from god the talent of talk i think it was meant for other things. I hate to argue, when someone starts a fight with me i smile and back down not because im a coward but because i dont care enough to waste the air.

Im not going to step into your argument Like i say i don’t like them but i will say you’ll both grow old quickly.

Perhaps true in their case, but some find arguing enjoyable. I  like it, and often take the opposing side just for an argument. It's not as ridiculous and immature as it may sound; a lot can be learned from a healthy debate - about the topic, debating skills, human nature/psychology, vocabulary. Indeed, I don't believe half of what I say, it's simply used to make a point.

Debating can just be a healthy yet rigorous mental activitity, like chess or slinging.

Ok, so this is somewhat deranged, I have other hobbies too, really ;D....

;D  Feel the same way  ;D

friendly debates are allright and fun but they are arugeing.

no their not!    ;D lol

I know your just playing. see this is fun, but they are name calling and mud slinging. Thats bad slinging by the way.  ;D

yep, name calling is no good, it usually means that the person doing the name calling is fustrated and can't clearly get their point across for the other to understand.  

yes both are bright people and i like them both but this crap is getting annoying. I was here a little longer then most of you guys and they have always fought. They have been here longer then me so i hate to see how far this goes back.

maybe they feed off of one another?  Gives them something to do?  maybe.

....as if they where married. opposites do attract.. ;D

Just kidding.  ;)

Er did you want the $5 argument or the full 1/2 hour? ;D

You guys just go on and on and on.Why don't you give it a rest for awhile already. I consider myself fairly patient and very tolerant of other peoples ideas, but you two are just taking up space with your rants. Enough please, or I'll get the Uktena to deal with both of you. ;D

Pray tell what the Heck is a Uktena

It's his God. Heap more powerful than the God of Christians!

I had a funny experience once at a game Tournament. My Opponent before the game dropped to his knees and loudly started praying for God to help him win.

I considered this unsporting, and promptly dropped to MY knees and prayed to Satan to help ME win the game. I then looked him in the eye and advised him that whoever won the game proved whose God was strongest, and the winner got to burn the loser's Temple.

I won the game. Luckily I don't REALLY believe in Satan and all his litttle Wizards. ;D ;D
Pat

Lovely story :D have to remember that one ;D

ow and btw  ;D i wouldn't mind if you belived in satan or whatever. truthfully i don't really care. just don't tell me to convert to your religion and well get along just fine ;)

Lol, but Techie is allowed to try.... why can't I?

Don't worry. I don't believe in God, Satan, Jesus, The Virgin Mary. Elves, Eskimos, Ghosts or any of that stuff.

Pat

Lol, eskimoes.  Me, I don't believe in Seattle.

 
Quote:

P.S. It is possible to have both Faith and Happiness.....although it seems clear that many who search for such an ideal as you espouse, english, truly have neither.

I'm sure it is possible to have faith and happiness.  However, I prefer to know the truth of things, and adjust my lifestyle accordingly, than just blindly push on, fighting my way through life with crusading zeal.  I am, however, really quite happy.  Genuinely.  I can verify this with absolute certainty, although no one can verify me.  It just riles me that I have been talking about Bush-bashing, Kyoto-loving, environmentally friendly modes of existence for a long time, with a nice scientific basis, and then you just come waltzing in with your faith and say exactly the same things I've been saying!  You can see where I might feel my turf has been nicked.  But whatever, you want Bush to crash and burn, fine.  Take my turf if you want it.
 In any case, I personally see evolution as a rusty old ship, but one that keeps getting repainted and designed, and so never has any real holes.  Water can keep smashing at the sides, but however much gets on top of the ship, the damn thing won't sink - too many watertight bulkheads, you see?
 A scientific conversion is never Damascene.  It gradually erodes you, rather than engulfing you with a single big wave; and that is it's strength.
 I don't have a real problem with religion - I truly find it fascinating.  I simply think that with religions, you can keep going through them and seeing the same people doing the same things all over the world, thinking they are right, when they all completely different.  Shinto, for instance - a nature loving religion, with a very "primitive" animist style.  It's adherents think it is absolutely correct.  Why are they any more likely to be correct than the followers of Mohammed?  Why are the Hebrews any more likely to be right than the believers in the Iroquois Creation Myth of the Turtle?  We can, of course, never know who is truly right, but to be honest, I don't mind.  I rather like being a runty little fire-brand, trying to turn the minds of all the religious - sorry if I do really offend people, but I rather think Techstuf likes arguing (as I, of course, do).
 So, to commence riling people once more...
There are 3 kinds of organisms in the Universe: atheists, organisms that can't understand the science, and Chuck Norris.
 Nah, I'm kidding.  Everyone have a nice Easter.  I probably will be offline for the next few weeks.

wrote on Apr 11^th, 2006 at 9:45am:

Pray tell what the Heck is a Uktena

The uktena, in Cherokee legend, (or Cherokee fact, as i call it) is a giant snake, with a set of horns on its head, inside the tip of the seventh of which is his heart. This goes back to the Cherokee belief of the sacred nature of the number 7. 7 tribes of cherokee, 7 types of wood fuel the sacred council fires, 7 sacred directions, etc...Uktena is said to be as big around as the biggest tree and is covered in scales like fire but harder than any steel. He was once sent to kill the Sun but failed, so Rattlesnake was sent to finish the job, which made Uktena angry and ever since then, men have feared to be near him. He has a crystal in the centre of his forehead which will bestow great power on whoever kills him and claims it. The eastern cherokee have a crystal abou the size of an anti-aircraft round that is transparent except for a crimson streak down the centre which they say is a crystal from an Uktena.

Very impressive! Actually I was expecting English to let everybody know what the Uktena is. In any case it is not a god, just a powerful being along the same lines as Fenris the wolf or the Banshee. 8)  The crystal by the way, is supposed to be fed fresh blood every 7 days or it loses its power. The future can be seen by looking into it and there are other smaller crystal used for divining that are supposed to be the Uktenas scales.