I thought that maybe the trading forum is not the place to hold a discussion of the ethics of hunting and trapping.  So heres my veiw take it or leave it.

 We have created a need for hunting and traping.  I agree most of it has become recreational, not saying people throw out the meat or pelts ( just that most of us can find food by going to the store).  Along with this there comes responsibility though.
If anyone has ever seen a winter kill on a deer heard? I doubt that any of you will not agree with me.  Same goes with the predators mainly vermin (racoons and opossums) along with the coyote and growing population of black bear.   We are now responsible to try to keep the heards culled and and the predators in check and a environment fit for them to live.  A lot of these predators are more easily trapped then hunted in the day since they are all basically nocturnal.

Now do you realize where most of this money comes from to maintain State parks and most National forest service roads?  Sure isn't timber sales, because the "environmental" groups are a bunch of tree hugging Bunny --------, and will sue on the basis that were ruining habbitat.  They don't have a clue.  If you get a chance read   Three Against the Wilderness by Eric Collier.  The money mainly comes from hunters and trappers and fund raising done mostly by once again hunters and trappers.  These people that have there mountain bikes and hikers that like to get out in Nature, how much funding do you think they do to keep up the trails and roads that they use?  Now I will admit their are a ton of these groups that adopt  a section of trail to maintain which is great, but with out the revenue from hunting we would'nt have crap.

I do indeed see what you mean; now how much fundraising is a kid like buger doing? Is he even trapping legally?

I hate to admit this but really it was more of a personal argument, although I would have hoped to get my message to others as well.

P.S. The vast majority of local land where I live is managed by volunteers. For larger places, funds come from membership fees, and some smaller organizations have virtually no budget. I'm a member of several, and a group of average people who appreciate the outdoors and bring their own tools can pretty effectively manage trails and rivers. For big projects like building a bridge or something, boyscouts or other youth ogranizations can be brought in.  Simple arrangements such as that a warden gets to live in the warden's house for managing a tract of land also help balance things.

I can see how this would run into problems on a huge scale, but for a few hundred miles of trail at a time, there's no problem.

r u jokin, yeah i sneeek on hevily gurded airforce bases to trap, or i could just get a licence  WHITCH IS WHAT I DO would u knock it off about trappin being horrible, like i told u traps today dont have teeth on them, ive been caought in my trap bout 50 times, it hurts, but not that much, and i doubt a fox will feel much pain in a 11 longsprind cus its so small but it hold them. i bet if u were stranded in the woods u woulnt trap cause of that poor bunny or coon. if youve never trapped can do u cant talk crap about, plese tell me this aint an anti trapping website

CanDo this was not a personal attack on anyone well except the Tree huggin........   ;D  

In part I posted how I felt to reply to  English's (not a personal attack either) not understanding hunting and trapping.  Plus I thought this would be a better place for it than in the trading forum.  

If my life was at stake, I'd have no problem burning a forest down.  I've made snares and deadfalls (as well as some man-size traps ;D), studied how and where the critters move, and if I need to kill them I will, but not until then.

getting a license does change things a bit, as that money will likely go towards the land in some form or another and implies that the trapping is regulated.
No offense, but I had been under the impression that you were just some kid who decided one day that it might be fun to kill some animals.

youre a fool if u thoght i like to kill animals for the heck of it, every thing we kill is etheir for money,food or makin myself some buckskin moccasins, and to tell u the truth i dont like killing animals that are in my traps, dispatching um is thr wort part of the game, same as hunting iam sure u dont enjoy the thoght of killing a deer, all us hunters trappers and fishermen dont think about just takin somins life, we think of it as sport, dont u agree

I think it is important to know how to hunt well.I have hunted and taken game many times but now choose not to as I don't need to. I do not see hunting as a sport. If you are going to take a life, then there should be a real need, not just a macho urge to go out and shoot something.

like i said we youse every animals we kill, if we diiddnt take care of shootin deer tey be too many and damage are corn, or if i diddnt kill he yotes thed wipe out the deer, yall see it all works out

wrote on Apr 8^th, 2006 at 8:50pm:

youre a fool if u thoght i like to kill animals for the heck of it

Well, I'm trying to move on now that I understand where you're coming from. That you're on a farm, protecting your livelihood changes things even more.

What I'd like to point out though, is that I don't know you. I was going on the assumption that you were like most kids who come to this site, wondering how they can kill something, probably outcasts, looking for something to make their dull lives more interesting, even if it involves killing and wasting. While I shouldn't have judged so quickly, this hardly makes me a "fool".  

Anyway, welcome to the site, keep dabbling in primitive tech, if you stick with it, you'll become fairly competent, and maybe take some game humanely with homemade weapons.

OUTCASTS???? :o ......Oh my God, I'm an OUTCAST!!! ;D

well iam not on a farm but but we grow a lot of corn wheat and oats up in alabama,its sort of a farm

nope youre not kahuna, its just that cando is a HIPPIE,HIPPIE,HIPPIE,HIPPIE,HIPPIE, i think yall get my point

I'm soooooooo relieved ;D

yep

Quote:

in alabama

Yup.  That explains it.

Explains what exactly?  You my freind have a lot to learn.

Lol, sorry, I was just displaying my Mason/Dixon biased attitude.  But the guy is being a jerk.  He calls someone a "hippy" on no evidence, and gives hippy obvious negative connotations.  Why?

Probably because hes just tired of trying to defend himself.

I'll admit its gotten out of hand though, but on both sides.  

He started a post asking about trading traps, and gets the "why would you do that, are you morally unstable?  Traps mame animals and theres no justification for them."

I know its not what was written, but most likely how it was read.

The problem with the computer world is that you can not see the persons reactions or here the tone of their voice.  A totally innocent question  can be turned upside down in a heartbeat and read like it was an attack.

Now on a more serious note: Hows Millwall playing this season?

Millwall?  Milleffingwall?  No idea.  Now if you want to see an animal, or someone maimed, see a Millwall supporter.

;D ;D ;D ;D  I lived in Bermondsey for 2 yrs lol.  I only saw a couple of riots.  Pretty impresive for this back woods hick. ;D  

 Anyway you have to support your local team right?  Just dont get caught wearing your colors out in another area.

Cool!  Here in Southampton, we have the whole rivalry thing with Portsmouth.  My brother always wears a Southampton shirt if he goes to Portsmouth ("the P-word").

The first match I went to Millwall had been at the top of the 1st division but were now heading to the bottom and they were playing against Crystal Palace who had started out at the bottom and were 1 or 2 places from the top of the division.  Millwall lost, and bad fan management= Police in riot gear and mounted police running around trying to break things up.

In response to Roy's argument as to why there isn't more timber sales: I don't belong to any environmental group nor am I against people that live in rural areas making money off the land so that they can survive. But most of the money that is made in logging goes to the big companies. Very little of it goes to the common man and I bet very little, if any, would go to help protected land.

I also think it's sad that even though there are forests left in this country, almost none of it is old growth. We don't get to see the forests the way they looked originally. Does this mean we should go ahead and keep cutting away what's left?

I have lived near forests most of my life and maybe that's why I like trees so much. I've also lived near logging operations and I hate to see a perfectly good forest cut down just so that a faceless corporation can make a few more million dollars.

Forest management.  Right now the forrest service is looking to sell land to make money!  Sell it today whats left for tommorow??  I'm not saying chop the whole forest down.
"Very little of it goes to the common man and I bet very little, if any, would go to help protected land."  
Do some research.

I am a hunter and do you know where I find all of the game animals?  In the thick brushy areas.  Thats right not in open forests.  Go figure. Once again do some research, this time maybe on North America wildlife and their Habitat.  

Theres effective ways to cut timber and not strip the land down to bare ground.

Right now here in GA we have some sort of pine beetle killing the pine trees.  There they are laying on the ground rotting, not very good management of our resources huh?

Thats right maybe we should import all of our timber too?  

hey engish u callin me a hick

Heck, I was calling myself a Hick  ;D ::).   Not the worst thing in the world to be called, I know Ive been called worse. :P

this being of topic, Why do people take good ideas and twist them around into redneck jokes. I mean, using a fishing rod to fly a kite is a great idea. And who hear hasn't made a frog gigging spear or used the "o" in a stop sign to sight in the scope an a Ruger 10/22 (joking about the last one, even though the ruger 10/22 is a good gun ;D) ??? ??? ??? ???

not sure, but theres a world full of rednecks out there and they are not all from the Southern States of the U.S.,   its sort of a worldly epidemic  ;) ;D (*not meaning to call it a disease, just couldn't come up with another word)

its more of a pandemic(epidemic but bigger, for all you hicks)  {just kidding!!!don't hurt me!}

lol  ;D  thanks for setting that strait for me  ::) :P

“Right now the forrest service is looking to sell land to make money!”

If a lot of the money that is being thrown away in certain federal sectors were saved, it could be used to solve the current lack of funds.

The budget for the military is $447.4 billion dollars and this could be reduced by stopping wastefulness. For example, a U.S. Army soldier told me about how they pay $100 for a hammer or $300 for a toilet seat. That kind of waste adds up and probable accounts for millions if not billions of dollars lost.

The current health care system has become very inefficient which also translates into wasted money. France, Japan, Autralia, Canada, Norway, and the United Kindom only spend between 7.3% and 9.5% of their total gross domestic product as opposed to the 13% that the United States spends. To put that into better perspective, eight years ago this country spent an average of $4270 in health care costs per person, while the Germans only spent  $2400 per person.


“I am a hunter and do you know where I find all of the game animals?  In the thick brushy areas.  Thats right not in open forests.”

The natural biome of the Eastern half of the United States is the broad-leaved deciduous forest not the “thick brushy areas.” It was this way for thousands of years before European settlers reached America. The animals that lived here were adapted to and thrived in that sort of environment, until they had to put up with a new man made environment.  What you get in these “thick brushy areas” is a greater number of a few species, but a huge decrease in diversity. There are many plant and animal species, that can only survive in forests and there are others that can survive out of the forest, but not to well. Also, species like bobcats, mountain lions, and wolves were naturally adapted to the deciduous forest. And if they hadn’t been exterminated they would be among those species affected by forest destruction.  

“Right now here in GA we have some sort of pine beetle killing the pine trees.”

I agree with you on this one. If the trees have been killed by the beetles then it’s alright to use them.

“Thats right maybe we should import all of our timber too?”

No, we shouldn’t. The need for timber should be satisfied with heavily controlled logging, because, if we let them, lumber companies would voraciously eat up the remaining forests. Also, curbing the demand for wood products by convincing people to recycle, use alternative materials, and stop wastefulness will cut back on a lot of logging. However, some people seem to be looking for any excuse to needlessly sell our forests and make a quick buck. Need proof? Read this article:

http://www.americanlands.org/news.php?subsubNo=1090602339&article=1142525819

Most lumber companies would rather conserve its the same deal with hunters if you take it all now what will their be tomorow?

Some of my best friends are Rednecks ;).......and Hippies. ::)

lol, thats acutally true for me too. One of my best friends is a hippy but even he's good friends with rednecks. There's a lot to be said for both ways of life. I lean towards redneck just because of the whole drug thing.

Ok, this is off topic, but it's more appropriately placed here than in the trading forum. This copy is just meant to be a bycopy to clear this up with those who haven't checked the trading forum.


Quote:

wow, this topic is in way to many places. and for the third time, why can't we put this to rest. I still disagree with the time it takes to construct a deadfall (I made one large enough to kill a man in under an hour, not using the figure four obviously though  :o) As stated in another place. I didn't say it's sick to shoot a bobcat. It's sick to truly enjoy shooting a bobcat that has it's leg clamped to the ground. If you ate the meat, and used or sold the pelt, I don't have a problem with the actual act of killing it, taking pleasure and enjoying the adrenaline rush is the problem. I wasn't personally attacking your shotgun, I believe that it's very nice and that you are clearly very attatched to it. I was trying to make the point that you're just talking about that shotgun here to make yourself feel and seem manly.  Apparently you didn't understand that point though. Yes, I do love nature... what's wrong with taking a walk in the woods, may I ask? Sure as hell (ok only slightly ironic expression), I'm not a touristy nature person, with a skewed perception of the reality of the hardships and dispositions of wildlife: the key difference between us is that I have more compassion for animals - take this as you may, and use it to link me to a Yellowstone 'nature nut', or point out the faults in this line of thought, but if you're smarter, you can see this is not true. If you think that it's 'girly' or something to enjoy watching wildlife, I may assure you that you're talking to the wrong people.  Most of this community respects nature as much as I do (not to imply that you don't) , and I have full confidence that you are alone in not being able to enjoy a walk in the woods, up a mountain, or along a beach. Not to drag more people into this, but siguy himself, your new 'bud', recently went on a hike in Conneticut.... And a trivial point whose sole purpose is to discredit you, "if youre over 60 years old i know you were a dope smokin, tree hug...." Do the math more carefully next time... Don't be so deffensive... it's a fault. Although you may have read it as calling you an 'evil animal killer' that is not how it was meant. Don't judge so quickly or  jump so far to conclusions (look before you leap :P); it just makes you sound very insecure and unstable. I know this is somewhat hypocritical, given the reason we're having this discussion, but it's about time that we learned this lesson. IF YOU HAVEN"T READ ANYTHING ELSE, READ THIS:Try not to be so egotistical and conceeded here, I'm addressing a larger audience as well as you. While this may be a 'personal attack' the things I say are exaturated for the sake of argument. I apologize for twisting some of your words and tweaking perception of you, but it was necessary, animal nature in fact, to fight back.  I know that you'll disagree with this (at first anyway), but in real life we could probably be good friends. So far all that we've talked about, is the one thing upon which we disagree; we've yet to have the chance to talk along common ground. And if you really think about, in essence we are very similar; both appreciate nature, and don't like making animals suffer. It's kind of ridiculous to have gotten caught up on these details, and for the discussion to have escaleted to this point.   siguy, thanks for being rational and for trying to understand where I'm coming from on this, we could all learn a lot from your example. In fact, I do know many hunters (some of whom are family), and while I am initially biased against them and skeptical of their motives, many of them are great people whom I respect. I find that in general, they sincerely care more about nature, and are far more realistic about finding solutions, than a typical liberal nut. Can we got on with life?! I fear that we are both too stubborn, and in a twisted sort of way, are enjoying this too much to just let it die. But it is taking up valuable time. This is not rhetorical: Can we agree to disagree, and move on with positive discussions from which we can learn from each other?

Not much of a Ruffed Grouse hunter huh?  Or white tail deer?  Maybe I know Moose?  no?  Critters used to survive on the edge of vast forests as they do today.  We have a "wilderness" area here as well lots of big trees and a beautiful trout stream running through the middle of it, so I hike into the middle of this and guess how much sign I found?

There must not have been any natural disasters like Tornados,  I know the Europeans brought them as wel... ::)

There has allways been natural openings, parks as the call them in the west Elk use these areas to graze, because you see they are sort of like cows in that they eat grass,  and elk roamed all over the east at one time.  Usually between these areas of grasses and Hardwoods (or pines) is the nice little "brushy areas".  All has to do with sunlight.  You see they like these brushy areas to den, hide and protect them selves from predators.  Just using Elk as an example, deer will travel out to reach the acorns.

Please find a copy of the book I mentioned earlier, its a true storey of a man that re-introduced beaver to British Columbia (I think it was BC).  

BTW  all that other stuff you had mentioned in your first few paragraphs I agree with.

i'm going to try not to enter into this but:

What exactly are you disagreeing on? Nature works in cycles, volcanoes, hurricanes, and forrest fires sweep through on occasion, and everything just starts over. All has its own niche in the evolutionary cycle; pioneer species come in first, but are then more or less killed off as 'old growth' and the animals associated come in. For the sake of the pioneer species which make the land suitable for 'old growth' plants and animals, disasters must occur. Humans have no place messing around with this cycle, but since we do inevitably have an impact on the planet, we must artificially regulate this process in some areas. I'll stop digging myself into a hole now.

Thats what I was saying sort of. ;)

60 year old dope smokin tree hugger? And the problem with that is????????? ??? ::)

lol  ;D  I apologize. Sort of like " I was just displaying my Mason/Dixon biased attitude." ,but with a different twist.
but seriously don't get caught with it. :D

nothing inherintly. but you could easily be under 60 to be a dope smokin hippie :)

and bieng a Hippie doesn't always make you a tree hugger. ::)

Quote:

hey engish u callin me a hick

Yes.  Yes I am.

better than being a city slicker, i live on the outskirts of town. and id like to see u plant corn, plow feilds,shoot game and clean it, know what plants are and arnt posin, make fire without a match or any fancy stuuff like the military issues, and track down deer oe other animals foe miles until u find and shoot them. as for u u go to work, come home and watch telivision, then gorge youreself on food, then go to sleep. i think a hicks life take more work wouldnt u say

I don't want to make any false assumptions about English, but while buger may have an easier time living in the country; I wouldn't doubt English's wilderness skills. I mean anyone who makes bows and cordage out of willow bark, and that by stressing out animals they get too much lactic acid in their system and don't taste good,  must have some idea of what they're talking about.

Anyhow, hick is definitely a better life than city slicker in my opinion. Of course the best life is somewhere in the middle ground.... and while you guys may be going in different directions on the scale, you're probably not as extreme as the other believes.

I'm one of those middle ground people ;D

wrote on Apr 10^th, 2006 at 3:59pm:

make fire without a match or any fancy stuuff like the military issues

Ok, I'm sorry to not be on your side again, but I just like to point out the irony that english, is helping you with that...
http://www.slinging.org/forum2/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=admin;action=display;num=1144636406

Damn i just split a seam laughing my head off  ;D

I'm pretty sure their are not many kids intrested in both target shooting and competitive model rocketry
(placed 50th out of 700 in the tarc contest. I was going to be interviewed on "fox" but it got canceled last minute. You can see the picture from the contest, it's the avatar.)

Let's hear it for all the 60 year old, dope smokin, bunny eating, tree hugging, sling tottin, bow making, Chemtrail watching, war game playing, fire starting, redneck/hippies! ;D

Wo0t!

haha Im a hick. But dont call me a redneck. Rednecks are country folks who are ignorant and happy of it. Call me a hillbilly its my preferd name thank you.


haha read some of english's old posts. You could never mistake him or anyone on this site a cityslicker :P

wrote on Apr 10^th, 2006 at 10:01pm:

Rednecks are country folks who are ignorant and happy of it.

Man I wish that was me.  Less to know= less to worry about.  lol ;D

no no no rednecks attack smart people. They attack minoritys anything new or diffrent form themselfs.

Ignorance is bliss ;D i agree whole heartedly to that, Just look at tech and english  ::)