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Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts (Read 884 times)
Slyngorm
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #15 - Oct 30th, 2020 at 8:40am
 
@Mersa but that is a question of the strategy used depending on your local environment, not objective and universal qualities of a type of weapon.
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #16 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 2:17pm
 
Ok, so manufacturing firearms and ammunition is definitely possible but still EXTREMELY cumbersome.


TOMBELAINE wrote on Oct 28th, 2020 at 3:25am:
Here's a link for throwing sticks :
Bill Skinner wrote on Oct 28th, 2020 at 10:05am:
people used to make what is called a "Tap Stick"
From what I can gather a boomerang is just a local variant of a throwing stick?
Or lies the difference in those throwing sticks that are designed to aerodynamically create lift (like a boomerang) and those who don't?

Also, REALLY interesting study TOMBELAINE. I didn't know any bothered to research this stuff or that boomerangs could vary like that in the first place.
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #17 - Nov 2nd, 2020 at 2:52am
 
His website is : http://revedeboomerang.free.fr/
The text is in french. But it's complete.
Luc Borde is a researcher and a boomerang enthusiast. Modern competitor but also passionate of throwing sticks.

For survivalism, I think Bill Skinner's method is better. Only after,If you like this weapon, you can learn this primitive technology. Just my idea.
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #18 - Nov 2nd, 2020 at 6:30pm
 
To my knowledge, there are roughly two types of throwing sticks that were used. 

Airfoils and non airfoils. 

Non airfoils are basically a stick, they are round in cross section and look similar to a bowling pin, some are more stretched but have that same basic shape.  These were, (are) generally a close range tool, usually used under 30 meters or so.  These were or are used on the edges of fields or brushy area.   

The airfoils are flat or wing shaped, some like the kylie do not return and some, like the boomerang may or may not, depending on how they are shaped.  They have a lot more range, in excess of 100 meters.  And, because the shape produces lift, if they are "tuned" correctly, they will sail at the same height they are thrown at for most of their trajectory instead of dropping.  These were used for hunting birds or waterfowl, they were also used in grass land plains or areas with little vegetation.

Both are thrown sidearm, so they spin on their long axis.   

Needless to say, both require lots and lots of practice.
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #19 - Nov 5th, 2020 at 4:52pm
 
Bill Skinner wrote on Nov 2nd, 2020 at 6:30pm:
Airfoils and non airfoils. 


They will be separate categories then.
I'll wager the non-airfoil is both simpler and more durable.
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #20 - Nov 7th, 2020 at 7:09am
 
For throwing stick in English  Smiley
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/science/throwing-stick-hunting.html
I think is the oldest throwing stick in the world.
The original text in french with a beautiful drawing to see the scene.
https://www.news.uliege.be/cms/c_11727088/fr/un-baton-de-jet-vieux-de-300-000-an...
This stick is probably the easiest to make.
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #21 - Nov 7th, 2020 at 2:32pm
 
I gave these to a cousin in New Zealand he sent this pic when he varnished them.
Throwing club is partly behind the other.
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #22 - Nov 8th, 2020 at 3:19am
 
If I had a such weapon, I wouldn't want to throw it !
No good for survival   Grin
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #23 - Nov 10th, 2020 at 5:08pm
 
Here is my new idea for the rating charts.
I tried incorporating all the new ideas into it but I has gotten really bloated. Maybe I should cut down on the text somehow.

Also does anyone know any fitting text editing program to make these charts?
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #24 - Nov 12th, 2020 at 5:31am
 
Now youíve done it. This is a post that can be debated endlessly, and if I have anything to say about it, it will be.† Cheesy

Hereís the thing, thereís a lot of assumptions that are easy to make where in practice donít end up being true.

A good example would be where you put ammunition specialization. Sling ammo is actually in many ways a bigger problem than it is for bow making. This is assuming you donít live in one of those rare areas where perfect ammunition is all over the place ready to be picked up.

Slings are actually just as much if not more prone to inaccuracy when using less than perfect ammo. For all sorts of reasons, not the least of which being you are swinging it around your head at very high speeds so even an error of a tenth of a second can lead to meters off target.

We all know this but often like to tout the slings advantage of cheap ammo. Unfortunately if youíve ever done a lot of serious target practice on ďsmallĒ targets you will know without a good backstop and a very clean low cut area itís very easy to lose any ammo that will actually have a chance of hitting small game size targets consistently. (Read: **perfect ammo**) This is much less true with arrows. So with a bow you have ammo that takes longer to build but lasts much longer and in practice, coming from a guy with a little experience in both those areas, itís so much easier to maintain your set of perfect arrows than it is to keep track of your perfect glandes. Sad to say, but thatís been my experience. Now assume you are hunting rather than on your fancy sling target range and the odds of maintaining your perfect set of glandes is practically nil.

Letís take bows for a second. Bows are moisture sponges. This is one thing you donít see in the YouTube experts videos on using them in real world conditions. A 1% moisture content change in a bows limbs can translate to an astonishing drop in poundage, which leads to over spined arrows, potentially changing the tiller and all sorts of other issues. Bows difficulty of upkeep should be right at 1 imo. Doesnít take a brain surgeon to figure out how but compared to most other weapons thereís a lot going on that can change. And unfortunately spar urethane is in short supply in the wilds so while grease can be used to add some protection to the wood itís more like
some
protection rather than
some
protection. To be frank, it sucks and will let you down when you need it most.

I am currently compiling notes for a book on primitive weapons that I am planning on writing. I use a triangle system with these three categories: Economy, Ease of Use, Effectiveness.

Economy encapsulates difficulty of making, of maintaining, sourcing materials and so on and so forth.

Ease of Use: is how easy it is to learn, how easy is it to use under adverse conditions such as starvation, heat, cold, humidity, etc,

Effectiveness: is how powerful, how effective (not the same thing), how effective for a given game, environment, season etc.

So far as I can determine there is no such weapon that scores high in all three categories. Usually at best you will get 2 high categories and one so-so.

Case in point: A blow gun is extremely easy to use. Itís quite accurate and doesnít take too long to learn. It also doesnít require a lot of strength so the hungry hunter shouldnít be as affected as say pulling the 60 lb bow you just had to make. But itís effectiveness is very limited without poison and itís economy sucks. As Bill said, they are horrible to make a legit one unless you are an absolute expert at it.

Sling:
Economy is so-so to very good depending on the ammo available.
Effectiveness is very high for the game you would be taking with it.
Ease of Use- is a steaming hot pile of week old baby diapers.

Anyways you get the point. Mine is a lazy manís version. I think I like yours better but however you choose to categorize it, itís a difficult question that requires answers from people who have spent a lot of time with the weapons in question under difficult circumstances. Fortunately this is probably the best place on the net for such a question so you are a step ahead of the curve.

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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #25 - Nov 19th, 2020 at 4:30pm
 
Well I agree with everything you say. The main point is also what Mersa mentioned: there are countless of tiny details that in some way or another change the effectiveness of the weapon you are constructing and using.

For example, the thing you said that surprised me the most: the sling ammunition rating. 
Picking up viable slinging stones has to me seemed pretty easy but that may be because I live in an area where such stones are readily available. If you live in a river delta rounded stones should be everywhere. If you live in a desert, not so much. If you live in an area with readily available clay? Bingo.

Your point about the easiness of loosing sling ammo during practice really caught me off guard. It is a weird, seemingly insignificant yet despite this meaningful and important detail. You have to practice using any weapon and you can't practice if you loose all your ammo. This, however, could be nullified if you happened to live in an area with a lot of readily available ammunition.
This shows that many of the grades affect each other somehow.

The moist bow?
This point should be covered by the weather AND environment grade. But if a weapons effectiveness is affected by rain or moisture you should not only take into account whether it can be affected by rain or moisture but also whether you are in a location where rain and moisture will often affect your bow and how much.

Is there a way to address all the tiny details that can affect manufacturing and using a weapon? Probably not complete but what about some of the way?
I can think of 2 points right of the batch that to some degree might solve this problem: describing an ideal yet realistic environment, maybe based on a real part of the world, that would make up the perfect environment for that weapon. And of course a disclaimer saying:



A grade chart cannot capture the full essence of a specific weapon.

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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #26 - Nov 19th, 2020 at 6:44pm
 
Well you know this being the internet a disclaimer is probably never a bad idea lol. If you have to specify these days that hot coffee might be hot you'll probably need a disclaimer for this as well.  Cheesy

The work you've already put into it is quite a lot as it is. The ideal environment would be one way to even out some of the variables I suppose. Just depends how specific you want to get.
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #27 - Nov 20th, 2020 at 5:17am
 
To survive, any rocks ( good size and weight) will do if you are targeting a group of birds.
And if you are afraid, you can put 2 or 3 rocks in the pouch. I'm tested with 2 rocks in the pouch ; it's just necessary that the global weight is ok with the sling.
Hunting is done at short range.

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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #28 - Nov 20th, 2020 at 5:25am
 
The scariest throwing weapon I know of is the African throwing knife. It takes little skill to use, and has multiple blades at different angles. It's not a stealth finesse weapon. It's a nasty hit-them-anywhere-and-watch-them-bleed-out weapon.

All the African tribes had slightly different ones. Picture is from the British Museum collection.
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #29 - Nov 20th, 2020 at 10:44am
 
I will add throwing knives to a sub category "Throwing sticks" under "No ammunition" together with air foil throwing sticks and non-air foil throwing sticks.
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