Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts (Read 885 times)
Slyngorm
Descens
***
Offline


Slingit...

Posts: 155
At Heroine’s place
Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Oct 25th, 2020 at 7:56am
 
I have been working on charts that grades ranged weapons in different categories the idea being that it would help one decide on a weapon to wield in case of complete societal collapse, mainly for hunting and defence. 

Now there are a couple of things for you to consider:
Firsty, I am not a survivalist and I don't know how relevant the current grades are for a survivalist situation (I will gladly take advice, more on that later). I already now have ideas on how the charts should be changed.

Secondly, this is the first version of these charts that I am releasing and they are still rife with lots of errors, both grammatical, graphical and so on.

Thirdly, I will add other entries if you can think of any (already considering the shotgun sling and whether the slingbow should be separate from the slingshot).

And finally, only having (at least some) experience with slings, bolas, boomerangs, slingshots and bows I can already feel that many gradings I have given so far are wrong (again, I will listen to experts).



The weapon ratings goes from 1 to 10 and are based on:
  • Simplicity: how easily can you make this?
  • Durability: how easily does this break and how much care does it need to ensure its functionality?
  • Environment: does the surrounding environment affect its effectiveness? Like using it in a dense wood, after having been made wet wading through a river or during strong wind.
  • Suppleness: is it easy to transport?
  • Practice: how easily does one become able to effectively wield this weapon?
  • Ammunition  specialization: does one need to craft the ammunition used itself or can you pick up any rock?
  • Ammunition manufacturing: how easily does one craft the ammunition?
  • Info:
    Not a grading itself. Contains various information like history, usage, construction, etc.




The info point definitely should be worked on. I am thinking of splitting it into history, construction (general design of the weapon), operation (how to use it) and maybe other for whatever info doesn't fit into the other categories.
Also, just got the idea of a "possibility" rating: what range of different animals can you hunt? Like, both rabbits and elephants, or only dog sized animals?



I will listen to whatever advice or changes you think should be made to the current state of the charts.
Should other grades be added or some removed?
Should any existing grades on a specific weapon be altered?
Ideas on how the charts itself should look (maybe a bar chart instead of numbers?)
Should the very structure and idea of the charts be changed?
Anything else.



Thanks for reading.


Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bill Skinner
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3284
Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #1 - Oct 25th, 2020 at 10:17am
 
Making a blow gun is actually pretty difficult, making a good one with matching ammunition is hard.  In the picture, I believe that is a South American tribesman using a hardwood blow gun, those are extremely difficult to make. 

Making one out of bamboo or river cane requires straightening them with heat and knocking out the partitions at the nodes, then sanding those partitions smooth.

And then, you'll have to make the darts, which requires making sting to hold your base or collecting something to act as the fletch/plug.  And they don't do much damage, think stepping on a nail, hurts but usually isn't incapacitating unless a vital area is hit, such as an eye. 

That was why most natives that used them use some form of poison on the dart.  Contrary to Hollyweird, those poisons don't usually act instantly.  And you'll have to know how to make them.

You left out a simple digging stick, it's about a meter long, maybe a little longer, about as thick as your wrist with a fire hardened pointed end and a spatulate end.  use as a pick, a shovel or as a club or short spear.   

And throwing sticks, they look like a stylized caveman's club, with one end larger than the other, tapering down to an end about twice the thickness of your thumb.  They vary in length but about the length of elbow to finger tip is a good length.  The Choctaws use them today for rabbit hunting and they also make a good club.   They are thrown side arm so the spin on the long axis to increase the chances of a hit.  An Apache Throwing Star is a variation.   

As far as firearms, look into early matchlocks from the late 15th century through the mid 16th.  Those, and the powder, can be made from stuff found in a hardware/garden store.  Look on YouTube for some of the primitive firearms made in various parts of the world.  The people there use them instead of modern firearms because they can build them themselves, along with the ammunition.  Think strike anywhere matches for powder.   

Another thing you may want to consider are weapons made in prisons.  Shanks and zip guns.  Those latter usually require modern ammunition, but not all.   

Last, look at axes, hatchets and machetes.  A simple machete can be made from a lawn mower blade and some tape.  Heat, hammer flat, wrap some duct tape around one end and sharpen the other.  You can use a hack saw and cut a triangular piece of the same blade, hammer the pointy end into a stick and you have a simple hatchet.  Fire axes are in a lot of buildings at fire stations. 

Hope those ideas help.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Sarosh
Funditor
****
Offline



Posts: 751
Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #2 - Oct 25th, 2020 at 5:23pm
 
I dont understand environment.
the slingshot is sensitive to weather it can break down very fast with high humidity and hot weather. firearms dont have such problems yet they scored less.

I would split environment in weather and surroundings. surroundings being field/ forest/ siege etc. slings cannot be used in a siege as well as straight aiming weapons that can fire through tiny holes in walls.

early firearms might be simpler to make than a slingshot from raw materials.
other suggestions:
add stealth factor, blowgun is the best, firearm the worst.
add effective range, slings would be 80m or less since we havent seen anyone consistent at long ranges and in survival situation there are no big formations to shoot at.
add stopping power very important factor
add rate of fire
also intimidation could be very important in survival. a boomerang and a blowgun are not as intimidating as a firearm... I would try to make allies people carrying firearms not enemies...
Back to top
 

"The main reason we stop doing something we love is because we forget our love of doing it for enjoyments sake and replace it with the desire to be good at it."
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Mersa
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Druid

Posts: 1705
Australia
Gender: male
Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #3 - Oct 25th, 2020 at 7:14pm
 
Hunting and self protection/warfare are extremely different.
I am a hunter and not a soldier so my experience is only valid with hunting.
Depending on what other tools you have will determine how effective each weapon is, a slingshot is a great small game hunting tool but once it fails or you lose all your bbs it gets much worse, and a gun and is basically a club without bullets. Arrows can be crafted in nature but require the right materials, basic tools and an amount of knowledge. When it comes to hunting there’s so many different environments where there are advantages and disadvantages, then there’s the actual game your hunting, good luck killing a bison with a slingshot, so it’s very hard to grade these weapons without exact scenarios.

The greatest weapon of all is the mind
Back to top
 

Razor glandes, Aim for the eyes!!!
 
IP Logged
 
Curious Aardvark
Slinging.org Administrator
*****
Offline


Taller than the average
Dwarf

Posts: 12623
Midlands England
Gender: male
Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #4 - Oct 26th, 2020 at 6:30am
 
how is maing a kestro dart a 4 ?
Sure you can use whitled stick with some feathers attached using tree gum.
But almost all those that we know of in history had forged metal heads. - which is definitely a 1 on the difficulty scale.

Likewie - slingshot ammo - is usually ballbearings. Finding a rock that flies as straight and true as a ball bearing - is pretty tricky. You can make clay balls - but only in areas where you have good clay.

As far as firearms having a durability of 10.
Hmm, that depends on how well they are made, looked after and used.

Definitely NOT a 10.

one thing you have ignored are air guns.

About 80% of the vermin control and small animal hunting done in the uk is done with airguns.

In a survival situation in the uk, where the bulk of your food will be from small game: rats, rabbits, pigeons, water fowl - the most likely weapon will be an airgun.
The ammo is fairly easy to make - once you've worked out how to make a mould for the pellets.

They require almost no maintenance. I;ve had my weirauch .22 hw 97 for around 25 years. It's all original, never had any kind of maintenance done to it, had thousands of shot through it and still shoots at the legal limit for an unlicenced airgun - the same power it had when it left the factory.

It'll take a rabbit down at 50 yards, with little effort.

Yes there are hard to manufacture - but once made are probably one of the best post apocalypes survival weapons you can get.   

It's the sort of thing that would become a treasured family heirloom - handed down from one generation to the next, along with the pelly moulds and a couple diamond files to fine tune the pellets.
Back to top
 

Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
Mersa
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Druid

Posts: 1705
Australia
Gender: male
Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #5 - Oct 26th, 2020 at 7:30am
 
Another weapon is a speargun or rubber powered handspear, I live close to the coast and it is probably the easiest way to catch a feed, especially if the fishing regulations were void. Much more likely than a fishing line, especially if your willing to eat average tasting fish. Also you could use it as a arrow launcher on land. But again the scenario makes the game
Back to top
 

Razor glandes, Aim for the eyes!!!
 
IP Logged
 
Kick
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 3292
Finland
Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #6 - Oct 26th, 2020 at 12:26pm
 
I think this is one of those things were there are so many factors it becomes an impossible task. I mean what if, as this apocalyptic scenario that forces me into survival occurs, I break my arm? Suddenly that throws a wrench in making and using most of these weapons. What if the scenario that destroys society is the rising up out of the deep of a Cthulhu-esque, Lovecraftian otherworldly monster beyond the comprehension of man and I have to defend myself from it's blasphemous, betentacled offspring? I do't think it's possible to compare these without first having a very specific scenario first which then doesn't really tell you much in the long run anyway.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Kick
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 3292
Finland
Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #7 - Oct 26th, 2020 at 12:29pm
 
I mean, comparing these weapons is all well and good but in an actual scenario, you could have an absolutely perfectly made. balanced bow with a quiver full of perfectly made arrows, but if the person that has this bow and those arrows has no fingers then what does it matter what the weapon is like?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Curious Aardvark
Slinging.org Administrator
*****
Offline


Taller than the average
Dwarf

Posts: 12623
Midlands England
Gender: male
Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #8 - Oct 27th, 2020 at 7:41am
 
you can shoot a bow without fingers. Smiley

Back to top
 

Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
Kick
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 3292
Finland
Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #9 - Oct 27th, 2020 at 4:09pm
 
True and if you're using your teeth then you won't need to worry about flossing.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Slyngorm
Descens
***
Offline


Slingit...

Posts: 155
At Heroine’s place
Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #10 - Oct 27th, 2020 at 4:19pm
 
Hi everyone.

For starters, thank you for all the replies and well considered comments. After reading your replies I have gained a better understanding of what I wanted to convey with this concept and much of your critique has revealed flaws that need fixing and given me new ideas that should be implemented.

The main points to address are:
The concept itself: what are these charts trying to convey?
Basically it will try and recommend weapons to construct and wield in a survivalist situation. To put it more accurately
  • The setting:
    What kind of survivalist setting are these charts preparing one for?
  • The purpose:
    In extension of the above point are the weapons going to be judged more on hunting game or defending oneself against other humans, or both, and to what extend?
  • The content:
    What kind of weapons will be rated?


Then there is the design of the grading system itself (wont touch the individual given grades yet, but I will admit that many of them are indeed flawed). 
And then the new weapons to graded in accordance with the approved content.


I wont reply directly to all of your critique but I will try and address it in some way or another.
Also, please critique my critique, and critique each other. I definitely think of this as something of a community project if anyone are in on it and I am open to changing the concept.




First of all, about the setting that these charts attempt to address.

Bill Skinner wrote on Oct 25th, 2020 at 10:17am:
As far as firearms, look into early matchlocks from the late 15th century through the mid 16th.  Those, and the powder, can be made from stuff found in a hardware/garden store.
My idea when I defined the setting as a post-societal collapse was basically something along the lines of you ending up living in the wild nature with nothing but some clothes and a knife (or something close to that). And for that reason I definitely think that anything that utilizes chemicals found in any kind of store should be defined as advanced.
And to be fair this might not be accurate at all. In an accurate post-ragnarok setting there would be old broken stores littered throughout the world and it might very well be feasible to pick up some chemicals here and there. However these supplies would eventually dry up and so home made firearms would be extremely limited. There is also the issue of the existence of metal which undoubtedly would be in great supply after such an event but again I think it funnier to imagine a setting with no such either.
Perhaps it is better to imagine getting transported back to the early Pleistocene with limited supplies, maybe only a knife or something (this is the forum of stone age ballistics after all, right?) 

Again, let me hear what you think.



Rating the weapons:

Mersa wrote on Oct 25th, 2020 at 7:14pm:
Hunting and self protection/warfare are extremely different.
Now, I said in my post that I imagined the weapons being judged on their capabilities for both hunting AND self defence. However, my main focus was definitely hunting. But again, the ratings should be based of a scenario of societal collapse or the like so it depends on whether hunting game or defending yourself against other people is realistically the more important issue.


And then there is the issue of what kind of weapons should be rated.
In extension of the above point my intention always was and still is that only weapons that are ranged and usable in hunting to at least some extend should be included. If we begin describing short range weapons like home-made knives and digging sticks we might as well describe snares and fall pits, and then this project would develop into a general survival guide complete with how to start a fire. 



Now, about the grading system.

Sarosh wrote on Oct 25th, 2020 at 5:23pm:
add stealth factor
add effective range
add rate of fire
also intimidation
All of these sound good.

Sarosh wrote on Oct 25th, 2020 at 5:23pm:
add stopping power
This one I disagree with. Stopping power is mostly based of humans and differs from target to target. A rabbit requires stopping power different from a deer. I think the "possibility" rating I mentioned makes more sense as it simply measures what range of targets the weapon has stopping power to bring down.

Sarosh wrote on Oct 25th, 2020 at 5:23pm:
I would split environment in weather and surroundings.
I like this idea as well.

Thought of adding a little comment under each rating for all the weapons that in short will explain the details as to why this rating was given.



New weapons to be graded:
  • air gun
  • spear gun
  • throwing stick (I can't find any precise information on this thing though)




Other things:

Mersa wrote on Oct 25th, 2020 at 7:14pm:
Depending on what other tools you have will determine how effective each weapon is
Mersa wrote on Oct 25th, 2020 at 7:14pm:
Arrows can be crafted in nature but require the right materials, basic tools and an amount of knowledge.
Many of these weapons could be made with nothing but a knife or only your hands. Ownership of a knife will definitely be assumed as the setting of these charts. But that is what the simplicity and ammunition manufacturing rating is for.

Mersa wrote on Oct 25th, 2020 at 7:14pm:
When it comes to hunting there’s so many different environments where there are advantages and disadvantages
True, but many weapons are very universal and aren't really affected even by extreme changes to the environment, and when they are its general design remains the same while only small details are adjusted to the local requirements. The spear is used from pole to pole, as is the bow, the bola and the sling.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Sarosh
Funditor
****
Offline



Posts: 751
Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #11 - Oct 27th, 2020 at 5:58pm
 
Slyngorm wrote on Oct 27th, 2020 at 4:19pm:
it might very well be feasible to pick up some chemicals here and there. However these supplies would eventually dry up and so home made firearms would be extremely limited.


Cody's Lab (https://www.youtube.com/user/theCodyReeder) had made a video on how to make blackpowder from human poop and pee, the video is probably down now... it took a year I think to make some from his waste. Once the production is going I think you could be able to keep with the demand. The more the people and the animals the more you can produce. I see matchlocks making a comeback in such situation.

I was thinking of stopping power more in the sense of warfare . An arrow will kill an animal in minutes you'll track it down and harvest it, but a charging man will do a lot of damage in minutes, add a 2nd man and you are probably dead even if you have the best modern hunting bow. In such case range and rate of fire are not enough to describe potential. But the thing is very difficult to measure and compare even with weapons in the same category e.g. modern bow vs medieval bow , or different cal guns...
Quote:
when front-line reports stated that the .38 caliber revolvers carried by U.S. and British soldiers were incapable of bringing down a charging warrior. Thus, in the early 1900s, the U.S. reverted to the .45 Colt in single action revolvers,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power

so yes leave it out

interesting animes i've watched that depict survival situations with a fantasy twist are "Dr Stone" and "The Drifters" I liked very much the latter but it's on hiatus 
Back to top
 

"The main reason we stop doing something we love is because we forget our love of doing it for enjoyments sake and replace it with the desire to be good at it."
WWW  
IP Logged
 
TOMBELAINE
Descens
***
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 208
france
Gender: male
Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #12 - Oct 28th, 2020 at 3:25am
 
Here's a link for throwing sticks :
http://revedeboomerang.free.fr/tuning2.pdf
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Mersa
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Druid

Posts: 1705
Australia
Gender: male
Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #13 - Oct 28th, 2020 at 7:30am
 
In rebuttal to your thoughts, hunting definitely changes depending on environmental conditions, and because tactics while hunting change due to environment so do the choice of weapons. Not only do the game animals change but also the landscape. This is a major factor and until you’re aware of the situation you’re in it’s hard to predict how a hunting tactic will work. Many people who have not hunted before would get a surprise when trying to hunt the first time. There is definitely a weapon that wins due to range and killing power and that is a gun, no other weapons really compare with these, but the downside is you need bullets and they make a lot of noise.
Back to top
 

Razor glandes, Aim for the eyes!!!
 
IP Logged
 
Bill Skinner
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3284
Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #14 - Oct 28th, 2020 at 10:05am
 
The nitrates from animal dung.  Sulfur from my water, it comes through chalk and has so much sulfur in it that it smells like rotten eggs.  Charcoal from a fire. 

All are easy to acquire if you know what you're doing. 

Simplest ranged weapons are a rock or a stick.  Pick it up and throw it.  Whittle some to a good weight and length and carry them or pick up a pocket full of rocks. 

As someone who has actually hunted with rocks, they need to be about the size of an egg to actually injure or stun the animal enough to catch it.

Down here, in the Black Belt, people used to make what is called a "Tap Stick", which was a take off of the Native American throwing stick.  Whittle that same stick, except wander the railroad track or a factory and pick up all the large nuts and screw one or two on to the end of your throwing stick.  It adds more weight and makes it more effective at killing small animals.  And could be used as a mace if you need to defend yourself. 

Those were used until well into the late 60's.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Masiakasaurus, Bill Skinner, Curious Aardvark, David Morningstar, Chris, Rat Man, Mauro Fiorentini) - (Moderator Group: Forum Moderator)