Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
Dismantled -movie (Read 512 times)
Kick
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 3140
Finland
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #30 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 4:29pm
 
I've considered all of the arguments for a solution to the problem of evil and found them all lacking. The only one that makes sense is that the way God is described is incompatible with itself. An all powerful God could give anyone as much candy as they wanted without a single problem if they were actually all powerful. The only reason there are problems would be if he designed them to be that way. The only reason entitlement exists as a concept is because he designed a universe where entitlement was possible apparently. The usual reply to that is that he "moves in mysterious ways" which is a cop-out. He's perfectly capable of explaining his plans even to a lowly human because he's literally God. He could explain his plans to a bacterium with absolutely no problem. Apparently keeping humans out of the loop as to why Ebola is a thing is necessary. Makes more sense to me that that guy I was told about in school isn't actually up there.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Oct 15th, 2020 at 2:11am by Kick »  
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 1582
Texas
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #31 - Oct 15th, 2020 at 6:58am
 
I understand your position Kick.  "Mysterious ways" doesn't feel very satisfying when you are trying to understand why terrible things happen, but if an all-powerful God who *can* explain himself chooses to be mysterious, who are we to say He owes us an explanation? 

There are a lot of things that I don't like about this world... mosquitoes, for example, or the fact that I will never know three of my children because they died before they were born... or the fact that someone in my family has had to suffer the lifelong psychological consequences of being sexually abused by a stranger as a child.  There are countless evils and tragedies and injustices in life, but I can't personally conclude that God doesn't exist just because I think I would do things differently in His position. In fact, it's just the opposite.

An all-powerful, all-loving God is powerful enough to be good in spite of evil, and He is big enough to take the blame for not stopping all of the tragedies of life too. There is a hope and an anticipation that, because He is good, God will one day take all of the horrible tragedies and somehow redeem them for something good. For me personally, belief in a good God is much better than believing that all the suffering is just pointless.
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
JudoP
Senior Member
****
Offline


Rocks away!

Posts: 483
UK - South West
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #32 - Oct 15th, 2020 at 10:12am
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Oct 13th, 2020 at 12:10pm:
Where atheism transitions from a non-belief to a religion is when deity is replaced by humanity.  When a person takes the view that "I am the highest form of being in the universe and can therefore do whatever I want" then they basically put themselves (or humanity, society, knowledge, "science", etc.) in the place of a god. That is actually the Biblical definition of satanism also.  In the Genesis story of the fall of man, the serpent tells Eve that she can elevate herself to the same status as God by eating the fruit and gaining God's knowledge of good and evil.

Pure atheism as an absence of belief is not a religion, but when an atheist puts his or her self in the place of God, it becomes a religion based on that implied positive belief of oneself as the highest being in the universe.  Arrogant atheist scientists do this all the time without admitting it. Satanists do this explicitly and willingly admit it. 

I seriously doubt that most science-based atheists are aware of or willing to admit the similarities between their worship of knowledge and satanism's hedonistic view of mankind, but they really aren't that far apart.



Personally I just don't see this. I'm pretty familiar with the views of outspoken atheists and I cannot recall anything anything that casts humanity in a deity like state. It seems bizarre to jump from an evidence based view of reality to Satanism-esque views.

=========================
My view on atheism & agnosticism is that they aren't very well defined. If I'm 99% sure god doesn't exist am I agnostic, atheist or both? What about 80%? 70%? Technically I'm still agnostic even with 1 in a googleplex assessment of god's existence which renders the term somewhat meaningless as a category. Meanwhile the threshold for atheism is completely arbitrary.

The interesting difference here is that the organised religious often encourage belief based on faith (or choice essentially) rather than evidence and reason, this renders agnosticism somewhat irrelevant as strength of evidence is no longer the prime driving force behind belief.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 1582
Texas
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #33 - Oct 15th, 2020 at 12:13pm
 
@Judo
Faith/belief is a funny thing. You can provide all the evidence in the world, and people will still sometimes choose to believe whatever they want. Does this make evidence useless? No. Evidence leads many people to choose to believe things, but ultimately it is still a choice. It is impossible to prove anything to another person who doesn’t want to believe it. Religion emphasizes faith because it is the only necessary step, but that does not mean faith is always blind faith.

Regarding the religion of satanism, “science” or “knowledge” is usually the unofficial god of atheists, and since mankind is the arbiter of science, he is in control of his god.  If you can control god and harness your god to do your bidding, then you are superior to god. Thus man elevates himself to a god-like status even... that’s satanism in a nutshell. Non-atheists  do it too by claiming  that God/angels/spirits/etc.  will do your bidding if you speak a particular prayer or do some specific ritual.  That puts them in control, not the deity.
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 1582
Texas
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #34 - Oct 15th, 2020 at 12:37pm
 
I suppose I should clarify what I mean by “science” too, because that may be misunderstood. When an evolutionist references “science” they can either mean “consensus among scientific peers”, or “hypotheses backed by observation”. The first one is nominally supposed to be based on the second, but as the Dismantled video points out, some so-called science is based on assumptions rather than observations.

Whenever “science” equates to assumption-based consensus, it puts humanity in the driver’s seat and becomes dogma instead of a pure science. The other example that comes to mind is the global warming debate which assumes 3 things at the outset: global warming exists, it will lead to catastrophe, and it is the fault of mankind. In both evolution and climate change, dissent and deviation from consensus are equated to scientific heresy, and you can kill an academic career really fast just by asking too many questions.
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
IronGoober
Senior Member
****
Offline


...and now, No. 1, the
larch...

Posts: 489
California
Gender: male
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #35 - Oct 15th, 2020 at 9:09pm
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Oct 15th, 2020 at 12:37pm:
I suppose I should clarify what I mean by “science” too, because that may be misunderstood. When an evolutionist references “science” they can either mean “consensus among scientific peers”, or “hypotheses backed by observation”. The first one is nominally supposed to be based on the second, but as the Dismantled video points out, some so-called science is based on assumptions rather than observations.

Whenever “science” equates to assumption-based consensus, it puts humanity in the driver’s seat and becomes dogma instead of a pure science. The other example that comes to mind is the global warming debate which assumes 3 things at the outset: global warming exists, it will lead to catastrophe, and it is the fault of mankind. In both evolution and climate change, dissent and deviation from consensus are equated to scientific heresy, and you can kill an academic career really fast just by asking too many questions.


I would state that you are characterizing science too broadly. You can't have science without assumptions. They are inherent in just about everything we do. We assume that a chair won't break when we sit in it.  You assume that the delivery guy won't pull a gun and fill you full of holes when you open the door for him. These are silly examples, but every single scientific experiment ever done has some sort of assumptions that were made. You can't verify ever single piece of information that you use.   You can only prove something is inconsistent (i.e. wrong) with a hypothesis. You can never fully prove that a theory is always correct.

You are correct that scientific consensus is not the same thing as a well-designed and tested hypothesis + experiment. But assumptions are inherent to science. You just have to know what the assumptions are and decide if they are reasonable.   Scientific consensus is often just that, enough people agree that the assumptions are reasonable, and it becomes widely accepted based on those peoples' assessment.
Back to top
 

John R.
 
IP Logged
 
joe_meadmaker
Funditor
****
Offline



Posts: 931
PA, USA
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #36 - Oct 15th, 2020 at 10:00pm
 
Actually well designed and tested hypotheses are exactly what scientific consensus is.  Scientific consensus isn't an agreement that a particular hypothesis just seems to be sound.  It's when many different scientists, working in different fields of study, all reach the same conclusions about a subject based on their research, testing, etc.  Evolution and climate change definitely fall into this category.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Rat Man
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 12200
New Jersey, USA
Gender: male
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #37 - Oct 16th, 2020 at 12:20pm
 
  There was a time when we couldn't discuss this here without war breaking out.  It's good to see we can disagree like reasonable  human beings.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 1582
Texas
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #38 - Oct 16th, 2020 at 9:42pm
 
Rat Man wrote on Oct 16th, 2020 at 12:20pm:
  There was a time when we couldn't discuss this here without war breaking out.  It's good to see we can disagree like reasonable  human beings.


You know, you’re right! We haven’t had a good old fashioned flame war in a while!
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
Kick
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 3140
Finland
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #39 - Oct 17th, 2020 at 5:15am
 
I can try and start one up.

I... um... don't like... the cut of your jib... Sir...

So... yeah...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 1582
Texas
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #40 - Oct 17th, 2020 at 4:30pm
 
Kick wrote on Oct 17th, 2020 at 5:15am:
I can try and start one up.

I... um... don't like... the cut of your jib... Sir...

So... yeah...



How dare you mock my jib?!  I don't even own a sailboat. You, sir, are just jealous because my staff sling is longer than yours... or at least it would be if I had one.
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
Kick
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 3140
Finland
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #41 - Oct 18th, 2020 at 8:15am
 
What did I say about talking about sex!?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Curious Aardvark, Rat Man, David Morningstar, Chris, Bill Skinner, Masiakasaurus, Mauro Fiorentini) - (Moderator Group: Forum Moderator)