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Dismantled -movie (Read 513 times)
Kick
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Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #15 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 3:33pm
 
I find Satanism fascinating. Like with all religions there are various differing versions but the LaVeyan Satanic Bible is one of the few religious texts that encourages sexual freedom but forbids harming others. The modern Church of Satan has also played an important role in the US in helping to maintain the separation of church and state. Some of the more fanatical Christians have lost their enthusiasm for statues of the Ten Commandments on government properties when they realise that opens the door for Satanists to erect statues of Baphomet Cheesy
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JudoP
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Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #16 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 4:30am
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 2:19pm:
As far as whether evolution/atheism is a religion...† there is at least one sect of atheism that is a religion: satanism. Satanism (as explained by satanists, not the Hollywood version) denies the existence of deity and elevates man as the highest being in the universe.† In a sense that is not very far from the philosophical position held by many of the more militant evolutionists.


I would hesitate to categorise satanism (or other religious groups which do not have deities) as subsets of atheism. Atheism is simply scepticism of belief in a deity, anything additional to that isn't really a subset of atheism but atheism + something.
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #17 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 7:40am
 
I think you are redefining atheism Judo. Atheism: ďaĒ- without; ďtheismĒ- belief in god
It is not just skepticism. It is denial of deity.

Kick is right. There are sects, but the largest one I am aware of holds atheism as a core tenet. Not all atheists are satanists, but satanists are atheists and their beliefs are quite similar to atheistic evolutionists... even if the expression of beliefs is quite different.
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #18 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 7:54am
 
@Kick:
Religion- check.
Sex-check.
Politics -check (separation of church and state)
I suppose we need to bring money into the conversation to make it complete Smiley

On the topic of sexual freedom and not harming others... there is quite a bit of contradiction there.† The #1 statistical commonality among criminals is fatherlessness. Add in STDs and all the domestic violence that started with jilted lovers, and I think the nuclear family starts looking pretty good for society at large.

On the separation of church and state, the statue issue is a misinterpretation of what was intended by that. Statues tie the past and present. At least in the USA, Baphomet, or what he represents, is not foundational to our system of governance, but the Constitution and Bill of Rights claim that their authority originates from God. Remove God, and you also remove the foundation of the American governmentís legitimacy... or at least the claims to legitimacy made in our founding documents. That is a different issue from the establishment of a religion by the state (backed by people authorized to enforce it with guns).
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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joe_meadmaker
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Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #19 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 8:44am
 
Oxnate wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 12:40am:
joe_meadmaker wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 5:52pm:
Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 1:31pm:
And that include atheists - yes, atheism IS a religion. In as much as it's† unproveable belief system that attracts as many hardcore fanatics as any other religion out there.

What beliefs does atheism adhere to?† And you can't say 'The belief that no god (or gods) exists', because that isn't required for atheism.


Actually, that's the definition of an ashiest.†

An atheist doesn't believe in a god or divine being.† However, an agnostic neither believes nor disbelieves in a god or religious doctrine. Agnostics assert that it's impossible for human beings to know anything about how the universe was created and whether or not divine beings exist.


I don't disagree with you.† But I may have not worded my thought as accurately as it could have been.† For me it depends on whether you think there is any distinction in the following two statements:

  • I'm not convinced that a god exists, therefore inherently lack belief.
  • I believe that no gods exist.

While both these points of view fit atheism, I think the mindset is different.
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JudoP
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Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #20 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 9:42am
 
Maybe scepticism is not the best choice of word, I mean scepticism in a stronger sense than it's usually used. Here I mean basically: "I don't believe X".

The choice of word is meant only to highlight how atheism is not a positive belief but merely a position of being unconvinced by claims that deities exist. It's not proposing an alternative, it is simply a rejection. I know it sounds like a semantic game, but rejections of propositions and propositions themselves are on different epistemological grounds. Otherwise we place an infinite spectrum of crazy unproveable ideas in a position where they have to be disproved rather than proved which is clearly untenable way to build a model of the world. This is why I rile against defining atheism as 'just another religion', or a belief system.

Quote:
Not all atheists are satanists


What percentage of atheists do you think are satanists? What percentage do you think are sympathetic to satanist views? What percentage do you think are even aware of satanism?
I would be intrigued to see how proponents of atheism and satanism have similar views. Maybe these satanists are more reasonable than I had first assumed.† Wink

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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #21 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 12:10pm
 
@Judo, I agree there is a fundamental difference between a positive belief and a lack of belief.

Where atheism transitions from a non-belief to a religion is when deity is replaced by humanity.† When a person takes the view that "I am the highest form of being in the universe and can therefore do whatever I want" then they basically put themselves (or humanity, society, knowledge, "science", etc.) in the place of a god. That is actually the Biblical definition of satanism also.† In the Genesis story of the fall of man, the serpent tells Eve that she can elevate herself to the same status as God by eating the fruit and gaining God's knowledge of good and evil.

Pure atheism as an absence of belief is not a religion, but when an atheist puts his or her self in the place of God, it becomes a religion based on that implied positive belief of oneself as the highest being in the universe.† Arrogant atheist scientists do this all the time without admitting it. Satanists do this explicitly and willingly admit it.†

I seriously doubt that most science-based atheists are aware of or willing to admit the similarities between their worship of knowledge and satanism's hedonistic view of mankind, but they really aren't that far apart.
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #22 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 1:41pm
 
joe_meadmaker wrote on Oct 13th, 2020 at 8:44am:
Oxnate wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 12:40am:
joe_meadmaker wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 5:52pm:
Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 1:31pm:
And that include atheists - yes, atheism IS a religion. In as much as it's† unproveable belief system that attracts as many hardcore fanatics as any other religion out there.

What beliefs does atheism adhere to?† And you can't say 'The belief that no god (or gods) exists', because that isn't required for atheism.


Actually, that's the definition of an ashiest.†

An atheist doesn't believe in a god or divine being.† However, an agnostic neither believes nor disbelieves in a god or religious doctrine. Agnostics assert that it's impossible for human beings to know anything about how the universe was created and whether or not divine beings exist.


I don't disagree with you.† But I may have not worded my thought as accurately as it could have been.† For me it depends on whether you think there is any distinction in the following two statements:

  • I'm not convinced that a god exists, therefore inherently lack belief.
  • I believe that no gods exist.

While both these points of view fit atheism, I think the mindset is different.


You seem to be confused.  Perhaps someone you knew claimed to be atheist when really they were agnostic?

  • I'm not convinced that a god exists, therefore inherently lack belief. = Definition of Agnostic
  • I believe that no gods exist. = Definition of Atheist.
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Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine:  'Yea' isn't the word you want.  It's 'yeah'.  'Yea' is an anachronistic word you see in the King James bible. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Spellcheck, I shall fear no misspellings for thou art with me.  Thy dictionary and thy thesaurus, they comfort me.
 
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joe_meadmaker
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Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #23 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 4:38pm
 
Oxnate wrote on Oct 13th, 2020 at 1:41pm:
You seem to be confused.† Perhaps someone you knew claimed to be atheist when really they were agnostic?

I'm not convinced that a god exists, therefore inherently lack belief. = Definition of Agnostic
I believe that no gods exist. = Definition of Atheist.

No.† Atheism addresses belief.† Agnosticism addresses knowledge.† They are not mutually exclusive.
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Mersa
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Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #24 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 6:11pm
 
Is there a term for someone who doesnít know?

Iím quite happy either way but canít say Iím on one side, Iíve had things happen in my life I canít explain but lots I can so my take is I donít really know if there is or isnít a divinity at play.
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Razor glandes, Aim for the eyes!!!
 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #25 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 7:57am
 
Iím pretty sure that ďdoesnít knowĒ and agnostic are synonymous.

Joe seems to imply that all agnostics take the position that the answer is unknowable, but I think thatís too strong a definition. If you say you donít have enough information YET, then I think you can still claim agnosticism without holding the position that you will never know in the future too. 

The creation/evolution debate has a third (basically agnostic) side to it that people usually ignore: intelligent design. ID says ďI donít know if this was done by a god, but life does appear to be a product of some sort of intelligence.Ē   The big problem with this view is that it doesnít explain where that intelligence came from, so itís not a very satisfying position for people who really want an answer to the question of where it all came from.
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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joe_meadmaker
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Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #26 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 9:13am
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 7:57am:
Joe seems to imply that all agnostics take the position that the answer is unknowable, but I think thatís too strong a definition. If you say you donít have enough information YET, then I think you can still claim agnosticism without holding the position that you will never know in the future too.

Not at all.† I agree with your point, things can be viewed in the sense of what we know now, or what we may know in the future.† In line with what you mentioned, I think it makes more sense to look at things in terms of current knowledge rather than what might be known at some point down the line.

That said, if someone asks you if you believe something (it doesn't even have to be about a god), and your response is that you're agnostic on the subject, you haven't answered the question.† Belief doesn't require something to be a known fact.† It's just about whether your own experiences and thoughts lead you one way or the other.† People believe things that are demonstrably false all the time.
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Rat Man
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Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #27 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 1:21pm
 
     If there is a God or supreme intelligence then we would be no more capable of comprehending His will or nature than an amoeba would be of understanding ours.  He certainly wouldn't look like a man or have any of the instincts or physical attributes that are necessary for us to survive on our little speck of dust.
    Organized religion has little to do with God.  It's a way to control and suck money from the population.  If there is an all knowing, omnipotent being then we certainly wouldn't need a priest, witch doctor, or shaman to act as an intermediary.
   Do I believe in God?  Certainly not in the Judeo-christian sense.  But I can't discount the possibility of some sort of supreme intelligence.  From our perspective it's impossible to know for sure.
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Kick
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Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #28 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 2:01pm
 
Rat Man wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 1:21pm:
Organized religion has little to do with God.

This is the big difference between how I used to think and how I now think. I treated all organised religions and spiritual/religious beliefs as being the same thing. They're actually very different. You don't have to be involved in an organised religion to be spiritual and, despite what they would have you believe, you don't have to be spiritual to be part of an organised religion. I never understood why our school had to trudge to the local church to praise God on Holy Days when we had had it very clearly explained that God was everywhere. It was when I was older and understood that the local church was the main sponsor of our C of E primary school that it started making sense...

Rat Man wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 1:21pm:
Do I believe in God?† Certainly not in the Judeo-christian sense.

I definitely fall into this category. I just remember on one of my nursing practical placements. I was in one of the big hospitals waiting for a lift (elevator for the Americans) when a hospital bed being pushed by two nurses started coming down the corridor. As they got closer, I saw the occupant of the bed. At first, I didn't realise they were a person. No arms, no legs, entire body covered in bandages, entire face wrapped up, tubes everywhere. I had already had whatever tiny germs of faith in an all-loving God extinguished by this point, but seeing that person, still alive, but so utterly physically destroyed (I would guess in some sort of fire or explosion), has cemented my view that there is no-one looking down on us from above. At least not with loving eyes.
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #29 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 4:13pm
 
Kick wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 2:01pm:
I had already had whatever tiny germs of faith in an all-loving God extinguished by this point, but seeing that person, still alive, but so utterly physically destroyed (I would guess in some sort of fire or explosion), has cemented my view that there is no-one looking down on us from above. At least not with loving eyes.


That is the classic debate over the problem of evil.  Rather than rehash it, I'll just drop this: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil#St._Thomas_Aquinas

The whole wikipedia article is fairly well written and lays out many different perspectives and conclusions about the problem of evil, but I personally like the Aquinas view.  I like the definition of "evil" as the deprivation of some good.  For evil to be incompatible with good (as is implied in the logical arguments at the top of the article), the person or creature who is deprived of that good must necessarily be OWED or somehow deserving of it.  If you say that God is not good (or that a good God cannot exist) because we can clearly observe the deprivation of good things, then it implies that the person deprived of that good was entitled to have it.  That just makes people sound, well... entitled.  The same Bible that says God is all-knowing and all-good also says "you will have trouble in this world".  Is that necessarily a contradiction?

It would be like my 2yo saying to me: "You're a bad parent because you won't give me all of the candy I deserve."
Despite my child's strong feelings to the contrary, my child is not entitled to all the candy they want, and I am not an evil parent for depriving them of it, but I also understand that they are too immature to grasp this concept.
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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