Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
Dismantled -movie (Read 514 times)
NooneOfConsequence
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 1582
Texas
Dismantled -movie
Oct 11th, 2020 at 12:11am
 
Here’s an unusual topic for this crowd... there’s a very thought provoking documentary on scientific problems with the theory of evolution. It is free to watch online this weekend. I would love to hear a rebuttal to the arguments from the other side of the debate too:

https://www.dismantledevolution.com/watchfilm
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
Oxnate
Descens
***
Offline


Crus de agnus Dei con
quilon menthae.

Posts: 174
Minnesota
Gender: male
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #1 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 12:51pm
 
7:30  Not observable.  -- Um:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_evolution

10:30 Evolution is a historical science.  --  Agreed.

14:50 Evolutionists say the grand canyon was formed over millions of years.  Creationists say the grand canyon was formed during the great flood.  ---  What’s your assumption of the wear rate of water on rock?  Does that match actual observations?  Also, do you really think that all the layers of sediment were laid down in only 6,000 years?

19:00 "This is an example of unbound extrapolation, which is known to be extremely poor science." ---  By whom?

24:00 Dog breeding is micro evolution and doesn’t equal macro evolution.  ---  Well, not YET.

33:30 Human genetic de-evolution.  --- Yes, we became so successful that there are no longer any significant pressures on humans.  We can support people who, in a hunter-gatherer society, would never have survived.

43:00 “Lucy” is a jumble of human and ape bones, not a separate species.  ---  An intriguing theory.  Though they move on without really doing a good comparison. 

48:00 Radio-carbon dating relies on assumptions which are flawed.  ---  Agreed.  But I don’t know enough to argue either way.  It could also be that the earth is even older than we thought.

1:03:00 Human/chimp DNA match is really 85%, not 99%.  ---  This makes more sense considering how we look.

1:07:00 The (estimated) length of time needed to form beneficial mutations exceeds the (estimated) time to form them.  ---  I added the “estimated”s in there to show these are just guesses.  And clearly wrong.

1:11:00 Eve existed 200,000.  We know thanks to Mitochondrial DNA.  ---  A number of problems with this study.  A: assumptions about the rate of change in DNA.  B: only 147 participants.  C: most of the “African” people studied were African-Americans of mixed ancestry.  https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/evolution/female-ancestor.htm

1:16:00 We can calculate the mutation rate right now.  ---  That’s what?  Four?  Maybe five generations you can test right now?  And then you’re extrapolating that back?  What were you saying about “unbound extrapolation” before?

1:17:00 Genes are changing much faster than we thought.  This means Adam and Eve happened 6,000 years ago.  ---  LOL.  They just undid their own arguments above about the speed of evolution.

1:29:00 The “out of Africa” theory closely mirrors the biblical account.  ---   You gotta really squint.  You could also say that the bible mirrors what we know about evolution.

The order of creation in the Bible is 1. Light, 2. Waters/Sky, 3. Plants, 4. Lights again, 5. Fish, Birds, 6. Mammals, Humans. So it went: Water, plants, fish, birds, mammals, humans. That list leaves out amphibians, reptiles, and a bunch of other stuff; but when we look at evolution, what order do things happen in? Water, plants, (insects,) fish, (amphibians, reptiles,) dinosaurs (AKA birds), mammals, humans. Interesting that things happened in that order. My question is: How did a bunch of illiterate people learn something like the order of evolution? (I ignore the mistake of creating lights twice as that's a clear case of the "telephone game" at work mixing things up in an oral tradition)

Okay, I watched yours.  You read mine:  https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/evolution/evolution.htm/printable

Let me know what you think.

Though I’m not sure why this is even a debate.  Just look at your feet.  They clearly came from a more hand-like appendage but the toes have atrophied to the point of being mostly useless.  That’s just one example of the “argument from poor design.” 

More examples:

The existence of the pharynx, a passage used for both ingestion and respiration, with the consequent drastic increase in the risk of choking.

The breathing reflex is stimulated not directly by the absence of oxygen but indirectly by the presence of carbon dioxide. A result is that, at high altitudes, oxygen deprivation can occur in unadapted individuals who do not consciously increase their breathing rate.

Almost all animals and plants synthesize their own vitamin C, but humans cannot because the gene for this enzyme is defective (Pseudogene ΨGULO).[12] Lack of vitamin C results in scurvy and eventually death. The gene is also non-functional in other primates and in guinea pigs, but is functional in most other animals.[13]

Let’s talk more about Vitamin C.  So why does this prove evolution? Very simple: because we (humans, apes, and monkeys) still have the entire instruction set to create Vitamin C, which we share with all mammals, it shows that all mammals have a common descent (dogs and cats for instance can synthesize it pretty well), and furthermore, that all monkeys and apes (humans included) also share a common descent because we all share the same mutation that turned off Vitamin C production. Slam-dunk, if such a thing was still needed...
Back to top
 

Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine:  'Yea' isn't the word you want.  It's 'yeah'.  'Yea' is an anachronistic word you see in the King James bible. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Spellcheck, I shall fear no misspellings for thou art with me.  Thy dictionary and thy thesaurus, they comfort me.
 
IP Logged
 
Slyngorm
Junior Member
**
Offline


Slingit...

Posts: 98
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #2 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 1:22pm
 
Oxnate wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 12:51pm:
Yes, we became so successful that there are no longer any significant pressures on humans.  We can support people who, in a hunter-gatherer society, would never have survived.


There are.
The pressures are just different and different traits are favoured.

Also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NArlXzSFt2Y
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Curious Aardvark
Slinging.org Administrator
*****
Offline


Taller than the average
Dwarf

Posts: 12600
Midlands England
Gender: male
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #3 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 1:31pm
 
human evolution is also ongoing.
Apparently increasing numbers of people are being born without wisdom teeth. As the human diet gas changed so much that we no longer need those large back grinding teeth for hard seed and grains.

And little toes are pretty much vestigial these days - well mine are Smiley

Also if you choose to accept One creation myth - then you really need to accept them all.
Most of them have been around a LOT longer than christianity, which is one of the youngets religions on the block anyway.

My answer to the question:'do you believe in god ?'
Is usually - 'which one ?'
They then say - all offended: 'god god !'
I say: 'my next door neighbours are hindus and have hundreds of gods. Why should I believe in any one god more than any other ? What makes you're god the 'REAL' god and everyone elses gods false ? Particularly as there are many gods who have been worshipped a lot longer than your 'God'.

The way I look at it, I'll repsect anyones beliefs, but I won't discriminate.
I don't see why any particular religion is more viable or non-viable than any other.
So sure I'll accept your beliefs, on the proviso you accept and respect everyone elses Smiley

And that include atheists - yes, atheism IS a religion. In as much as it's  unproveable belief system that attracts as many hardcore fanatics as any other religion out there.
Old blood and thunder: 'I'm right and you are wrong and you need to believe what I say you need to believe' richard dawkins, is as much a religious fanatic as the maddest mullah from mad town in madistan.

Odd that he's never realised.
Back to top
 

Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
Kick
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 3140
Finland
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #4 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 4:33pm
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 1:31pm:
Apparently increasing numbers of people are being born without wisdom teeth.

I'm one of them! Very relieved to find out they were missing as my mouth is a jumble as it is. My bottom teeth as so messed up it's literally changed the shape of my tongue. Anyway...

Fantastic response Oxnate! I've heard a lot of those arguments for creationism before and they have been argued against for years. They just don't hold any sway for me. The theory of evolution was developed logically from the collection and extrapolation of evidence over many years by dedicated scientists and is constantly being added to and developed. Creationism is the collecting of supporting evidence for a now fixed (wasn't always I can guarantee) fairy tale originally dreamed up by Bronze Age shepherds. I know which one I'm going to go with.

The main reason I am familiar with those arguments is because I was one of those obnoxious, pretentious, holier-than-thou atheists. I'm glad I grew out of that phase. Do I believe in God? No. Sort of. I certainly don't believe in some guy upstairs who is looking down saying "Those humans should stop doing that and do this instead".

There's a really interesting idea put forward by the comic book writer Grant Morrison. I don't believe he developed it himself but he expresses it very well in this video: https://youtu.be/xr-3zUjZgl0

For those that didn't watch the video or couldn't understand his accent, the basic idea is that we experience sections of time, not all time at once. Everyone exists, from a higher "god-like" perspective, as long trails of existence that we only see a 3D slice of. From a 4D persepctive you can see everyone trailing backwards in time, back through their own history, to their mother's wombs, back to the sperm and egg which are simply replicated cells inside your parents who can be traced back along the trail to their parents, to their parents, to their parents and so on. Eventually, going back along this path, you start joining up with other species. If you were to cut back to a 3D view at this point in the long snake, you would see something that doesn't necessarily resemble a human being, but nevertheless, is part of the connected trail of cells that lead to humans in the future. Going all the way back to those first proteins that formed together and would eventually become all life, you can see that we, all living things, are actually one giant, infinitely complicated octopus-like, radiating being existing in a 4D universe where past, present and future are the same moment. To really hammer home the hippy dippyness of it "We are all one". All living things on planet Earth are really one being, a being we can't see because we only see slices of it at a time. I think that's a pretty awe inspiring idea.

You can even take it a step further and follow those building blocks of the one living being we are all a part of back into the hearts of stars, where the materials of the universe were created. As Carl Sagan once said "To make an apple pie you must first invent the universe." Everything that is runs back to the birth of the universe, The Big Bang. We don't just live in the universe, we are part of the universe. We are connected to everything we know to exist. I think the closest thing to God in our universe is the universe itself.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
joe_meadmaker
Funditor
****
Offline



Posts: 931
PA, USA
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #5 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 5:52pm
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 1:31pm:
And that include atheists - yes, atheism IS a religion. In as much as it's  unproveable belief system that attracts as many hardcore fanatics as any other religion out there.

What beliefs does atheism adhere to?  And you can't say 'The belief that no god (or gods) exists', because that isn't required for atheism.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Oxnate
Descens
***
Offline


Crus de agnus Dei con
quilon menthae.

Posts: 174
Minnesota
Gender: male
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #6 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 12:28am
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 1:31pm:
My answer to the question:'do you believe in god ?'
Is usually - 'which one ?'
They then say - all offended: 'god god !'
I say: 'my next door neighbours are hindus and have hundreds of gods. Why should I believe in any one god more than any other ? What makes you're god the 'REAL' god and everyone elses gods false ? Particularly as there are many gods who have been worshipped a lot longer than your 'God'.




Obviously, the person you were talking to believes in the REAL god.  It's also very fortunate for him or her that he/she was brought up (95% chance) believing in the "one TRUE god."

I love mentioning that to people and watching the cognitive dissonance play across their faces.



And thank you, Kick.  I really think that the church should stop arguing against evolution.  It was one of the first things that made me realize that the bible and the church was wrong.
Back to top
 

Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine:  'Yea' isn't the word you want.  It's 'yeah'.  'Yea' is an anachronistic word you see in the King James bible. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Spellcheck, I shall fear no misspellings for thou art with me.  Thy dictionary and thy thesaurus, they comfort me.
 
IP Logged
 
Oxnate
Descens
***
Offline


Crus de agnus Dei con
quilon menthae.

Posts: 174
Minnesota
Gender: male
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #7 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 12:40am
 
joe_meadmaker wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 5:52pm:
Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 1:31pm:
And that include atheists - yes, atheism IS a religion. In as much as it's  unproveable belief system that attracts as many hardcore fanatics as any other religion out there.

What beliefs does atheism adhere to?  And you can't say 'The belief that no god (or gods) exists', because that isn't required for atheism.


Actually, that's the definition of an ashiest. 

An atheist doesn't believe in a god or divine being.  However, an agnostic neither believes nor disbelieves in a god or religious doctrine. Agnostics assert that it's impossible for human beings to know anything about how the universe was created and whether or not divine beings exist.
Back to top
 

Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine:  'Yea' isn't the word you want.  It's 'yeah'.  'Yea' is an anachronistic word you see in the King James bible. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Spellcheck, I shall fear no misspellings for thou art with me.  Thy dictionary and thy thesaurus, they comfort me.
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 1582
Texas
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #8 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 12:58am
 
Wow, I guess it was thought provoking... or maybe just provoking? Smiley
I didn’t expect this much dialogue in 24 hours since I stepped away from the keyboard.
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
Kick
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 3140
Finland
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #9 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 3:55am
 
Well they do say not to talk religion, sex or politics in polite company NOOC Cheesy I really do love these discussions though. I did philosophy at A level (I think that's High School level in America?) and I really love it as a subject. All the big questions are the most interesting ones.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
JudoP
Senior Member
****
Offline


Rocks away!

Posts: 483
UK - South West
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #10 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 6:16am
 
Quote:
And that include atheists - yes, atheism IS a religion. In as much as it's  unproveable belief system that attracts as many hardcore fanatics as any other religion out there.


Atheism is not a belief system let alone a religion. A-something-ism is just a sceptical position on claims that are unevidenced or unbelievable. Just because a lot of people are religious it doesn't mean non-acceptance of religion suddenly becomes a special oppositional belief system. After all (as you allude to), the religious are atheistic with respect to almost every god, diety and spirit ever proposed, so every religious person actually knows what it is like to be an atheist in some sense and regards it as entirely reasonable to reject religious claims from other traditions without a second thought.

Quote:
'I'm right and you are wrong and you need to believe what I say you need to believe' richard dawkins, is as much a religious fanatic as the maddest mullah from mad town in madistan.
Odd that he's never realised.


That is simply not Dawkins' view though, in fact I don't think I've ever met an atheist that held that people should simply submit to non-belief. Almost all atheists are fairly liberal and support freedom of religion, but why should that mean that religion can't be questioned? Or people can't be persuaded?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Mersa
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Druid

Posts: 1663
Australia
Gender: male
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #11 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 9:53am
 
I watched it but it was a little bias I thought. Had some interesting ideas but I’m not versed enough to really comment on the legitimacy of it.
Back to top
 

Razor glandes, Aim for the eyes!!!
 
IP Logged
 
Kick
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 3140
Finland
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #12 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 11:29am
 
JudoP wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 6:16am:
That is simply not Dawkins' view though, in fact I don't think I've ever met an atheist that held that people should simply submit to non-belief. Almost all atheists are fairly liberal and support freedom of religion, but why should that mean that religion can't be questioned? Or people can't be persuaded?

I can say they do exist and I was one of them. I was always looking down on anyone with any belief that wasn't my own. I genuinely believed the eradication of religion would be a good thing for humanity and I didn't come up with these beliefs on my own. YouTube is a powerful tool for spreading ideas whether those ideas are positive or not. I was a very angry person and it made me angrier. I'm glad I grew up.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
JudoP
Senior Member
****
Offline


Rocks away!

Posts: 483
UK - South West
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #13 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 12:11pm
 
Kick wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 11:29am:
JudoP wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 6:16am:
That is simply not Dawkins' view though, in fact I don't think I've ever met an atheist that held that people should simply submit to non-belief. Almost all atheists are fairly liberal and support freedom of religion, but why should that mean that religion can't be questioned? Or people can't be persuaded?

I can say they do exist and I was one of them. I was always looking down on anyone with any belief that wasn't my own. I genuinely believed the eradication of religion would be a good thing for humanity and I didn't come up with these beliefs on my own. YouTube is a powerful tool for spreading ideas whether those ideas are positive or not. I was a very angry person and it made me angrier. I'm glad I grew up.


I am sorry to hear that and glad you are doing better.

I am curious were you for actual policy for eradication of religion or did you merely hold that it would be a positive thing if religiosity dwindled over time and eventually disappeared? I think the latter is far more excusable, I'm not sure I hold it- but I can understand why some might.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 1582
Texas
Re: Dismantled -movie
Reply #14 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 2:19pm
 
Ok, I will chime in on a couple of things...

According to Biblical scholars, Genesis was supposed to have been written by Moses. If you compare the account of creation in Genesis to ancient Egyptian creation myths, there are a lot of similarities.  See here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_creation_myths

The main difference is that the Egyptian gods were replaced with a single Hebrew God.   I am therefore hesitant when creationists use the modified Egyptian creation myth as a scientific text. Did Moses intend it as a literal account? The story of Adam and Eve appears to be presented as historical, but the stuff before that? It could just be an appropriation of an Egyptian allegory for the purpose of establishing the superiority of the Hebrew God over Egyptian gods.  If that’s the case, then you can’t assume that it was intended to be literal... unless the Egyptian culture at the time believed that their version was a literal account of creation. I just don’t know enough about the original context to say either way, but I’d love to study the anthropology of the Egyptian creation myth some day to understand Moses’ intent better.

As far as whether evolution/atheism is a religion...  there is at least one sect of atheism that is a religion: satanism. Satanism (as explained by satanists, not the Hollywood version) denies the existence of deity and elevates man as the highest being in the universe.  In a sense that is not very far from the philosophical position held by many of the more militant evolutionists.
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Masiakasaurus, Mauro Fiorentini, Curious Aardvark, Rat Man, David Morningstar, Bill Skinner, Chris) - (Moderator Group: Forum Moderator)