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Problem with thin efficient slings (Read 855 times)
NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #15 - Jul 29th, 2020 at 12:36pm
 
jauke wrote on Jul 29th, 2020 at 10:56am:
It's almost scary because what he is saying is totally in line with my thinking. And I am definitely not trying to troll anybody.



Oh come on Jauke!  A little bit of trolling never hurt anyone.  You should try it some time Smiley

I can't agree with his "I don't want to play with you guys anymore" approach, but before he went back to his little sandbox yesterday, Jaegoor was right that a lot of the same topics come up on here again and again.  When the technical topics get recycled, it's the people who keep the forum interesting.   I personally enjoy a little bit of unserious banter as long as it's all in good fun and you make it fairly obvious when you are joking and when you are not.  That's where RS and Apex went wrong.  We couldn't tell when they were genuinely contributing and when they were not.  That's just annoying.
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Sarosh
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #16 - Jul 29th, 2020 at 1:39pm
 
Apex-apoc wrote on Sep 11th, 2017 at 1:30pm:
And with a ball of tungsten (heavy metall class 4 - 18,5 g/cm3 - diameter = 17,51 mm, same wight = 52 g) Larry Bray's record would have been minimum 808 m!

That can be calculated (online) here: http://www.schuetzenverein-ettenheim.de/sportschiessen/ballistikrechner.php


112m/s @40į, flight time 13.4 sec, 808m

and if something I shot reaches over 200m I 'm not able to see where it landed and I lose my ammo even at 20m† Angry , that guy is a superhuman with metal detector abilities.
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jauke
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #17 - Jul 29th, 2020 at 2:09pm
 
Sarosh wrote on Jul 29th, 2020 at 12:33pm:
jauke wrote on Jul 29th, 2020 at 10:56am:
I ordered some 20mm and 30mm steel balls so I can do better range testing with Y-sling soon.


I cant see how you'll be able to differentiate the results you'll get from y vs traditional slings using steel BBs.† steel bbs are very smooth I expect similar release friction from both designs, spin orientation will have very little impact on trajectory because of the smooth spherical shape and the high density.


I think that with a long thin slin and a tiny flexible leather pouch that fits the sphere, the friction will indeed be very small. But it will still be bigger than a tiny Y-pouch with the projectile slipping through a gap in the release cord, especially with the narrow pinch grip I use
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #18 - Jul 29th, 2020 at 2:36pm
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jul 29th, 2020 at 12:36pm:
jauke wrote on Jul 29th, 2020 at 10:56am:
It's almost scary because what he is saying is totally in line with my thinking. And I am definitely not trying to troll anybody.



Oh come on Jauke!† A little bit of trolling never hurt anyone.† You should try it some time Smiley

I can't agree with his "I don't want to play with you guys anymore" approach, but before he went back to his little sandbox yesterday, Jaegoor was right that a lot of the same topics come up on here again and again.† When the technical topics get recycled, it's the people who keep the forum interesting.† †I personally enjoy a little bit of unserious banter as long as it's all in good fun and you make it fairly obvious when you are joking and when you are not.† That's where RS and Apex went wrong.† We couldn't tell when they were genuinely contributing and when they were not.† That's just annoying.†


To be fair I still contend that you are all crazy for questioning any of RSíes stories. It all seemed perfectly legit to me.  Roll Eyes Tongue
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jauke
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #19 - Jul 30th, 2020 at 9:02am
 
So I realized something that I should've realized long ago.

It's not that heavy release cords release late, or that light release cords release less late.

It's where the weight of the release cord is concentrated that determines a late or or - less late -release.

A sling with a tapered release cord, like that of the Balearics, releases very very late, because most of the weight of the release cord is at the base of the release cord, and gradually the weight becomes less.

A sling with an opposite-tapered release cord, that starts thin at the bottom and ends thick at the place where you grab the release cord, would have the opposite effect, a release that is almost not delayed.

Tying a small weight at the end of your release cord would achieve the same thing (concentrating the weight of the release cord at the end of it.) which I just did. It opens up the pouch much quicker and gives a much cleaner and accurate release.

It is my fervent opinion that peak accuracy is achieved with the least release delay possible. I cannot conclude otherwise because with the single stone bola / perdida that has virtually no release delay I am able to throw MUCH more accurate and consistent than with a Balearic sling or any shepherd sling with a release delay.

Now we come to the subject of glandes again. To throw a glande point first and create the spiral spin would require some release delay. There's no way around it. But I am really at the point where I no longer consider glandes to be the optimal sling projectile. All the negatives don't weight up to this one positive. The only way to somewhat be able to control pouch orientation consistently is with a heavy, inefficient sling. It is a very challenging task that really, really is the cause of the legendary high skill ceiling for accuracy with the regular sling. A skill ceiling that in my mind is becoming more and more pointless to try and reach, it takes years and years to reach the accuracy similar to accuracy that can be achieved in a matter of weeks with a single weight bola or only a little longer with a Y-sling.

The only use I still have for the shepherd sling is whistling buzzing stones or projectiles, accuracy here is not important, but friction is.
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jauke
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #20 - Jul 30th, 2020 at 2:48pm
 
But- there is one ''convential sling'' I still want to make and I would consider a nice addition to my Y-slings, that is the netted sling. Netted slings are the only convential slings that also seem to be made for spherical projectiles. One of those projectiles are clay balls, which are quickly becoming one of my favorite natural ammo types to use. I believe that is what the Aztecs used for there slings as well, big round clay balls. I think a netted sling and balls is one of the more accurate consistent convential slings. But probably not on the level of the Y-sling. A lot of other convential slings are not really suited for spheres, but for ovoid ammo, because these are imperfect slings.

I do believe that equipment is a very critical part of accuracy. Not all comes from the slinger. If the equipment is not right, than the slinger may throw the same way every time, but the trajectories can be very different. Thus it can fool you into thinking that your throw was wrong, while your throw was right, but internal ballistics screwed it up. It is a vicious circle that prevents you from ever mastering it, friction slings are deceptive.

With the one stone bola, all the internal factors that can screw up your shot are removed. You can truly fine tune your shots and get accurate much more quickly. A good sling should aim to be like the bola, but only now reloadable without having to retrieve the sling cord. Round stones or spheres is the logical ammo for slings, and the optimal sling is meant to throw spheres. I think that we just started using biconical ammo because the sling was not optimal. Flat ovoids or ovoids retain better in imperfect slings. That they discovered that with a wide grip and a release angle they can throw rifled shots with it and whistling bullets, is an interesting side discovery, but niche, only useful on the ancient battle fields when employed in large numbers as a volley weapon.

This sounds all very direct and maybe harsh, I know. And I've said it before. I also think this is exactly why slings sort of died out or never took off as a sport, because we have been using the wrong slings. There is a reason why the only slinging we see as an olympic sport is hammer throwing. For something to become an olympic sport, the differences in equipment has to be removed. Convential slings are too much subject to internal ballistics caused by build construction that a universal model could never be agreed upon. But I think that target throwing done with simple one-stone bolas with a set-weight for the weight would level the playing field. Then it would all come down to the user and not the equipment. Like they did with track cycling, or with spears in the javelin throwing. That's why in the Balearic islands they basically all have to use the same type. The simple shepherd sling will not reach this type of status.
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jauke
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #21 - Jul 30th, 2020 at 2:59pm
 
And don't worry, if you can't stand my posts, soon I will 'disappear' from active posting so much and go back to lurking occassionally, as my sling holiday is over within 1 month† and I will be very busy with other things Shocked These last 2 months I am a little obsessed with slings.

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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #22 - Jul 30th, 2020 at 4:32pm
 
jauke wrote on Jul 30th, 2020 at 2:48pm:
I think that we just started using biconical ammo because the sling was not optimal.


saying stuff like this makes me wonder if you have ever tried slinging over 100m.

jauke wrote on Jul 30th, 2020 at 2:48pm:
I also think this is exactly why slings sort of died out or never took off as a sport, because we have been using the wrong slings. There is a reason why the only slinging we see as an olympic sport is hammer throwing. For something to become an olympic sport, the differences in equipment has to be removed. Convential slings are too much subject to internal ballistics caused by build construction that a universal model could never be agreed upon. But I think that target throwing done with simple one-stone bolas with a set-weight for the weight would level the playing field.


I think uniformity kills sports. Javelin was nerfed and it became less technical and less interesting, other throwing sports are also not getting better from the olympics .

Archery on the other hand has been advancing changing adapting for many years on every branch. I think widely practiced/traditional or commercialized sports can get into the olympics and then get simplified for the olympics not the other way around.

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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #23 - Jul 30th, 2020 at 8:11pm
 
Iíve found quite the opposite, tapered release cords open faster and the weight should be in the pouch not in the cords. The cords should be low stretch and then the energy quickly transfers into movement.

Biconical ammo is designed for killing, itís sharp and sharp things kill. Itís just a added bonus that it flys further and rolls out of a sling better than a ball.
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #24 - Jul 31st, 2020 at 3:33am
 
Sarosh wrote on Jul 30th, 2020 at 4:32pm:
saying stuff like this makes me wonder if you have ever tried slinging over 100m.


Nice bait Sarosh! I don't think this comment is worth a serious response, sorry.

Mersa wrote on Jul 30th, 2020 at 8:11pm:
Iíve found quite the opposite, tapered release cords open faster


This is not a matter of opinion, though, its either true or not.
What's your reasoning why you say that a tapered release cord opens up quicker?
I've said my reasons for why the opposite is the case.
I will state it again.

A tapered release cord has minimal weight at the end, sometimes even ending with a fluffy windbreaker, slowing the releae down even further. A weighty end of the release cord is what snaps it open quicker due to momentum, and the least possible weight at the start of the release cord reduces any opening/bend resistance.

The tapered release cords do exactly the opposite, huge bend resistance at the base, minimal weight at the end, even a fluffy tail. Huge delayed release.
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #25 - Jul 31st, 2020 at 4:07am
 
Well itís pretty similar to a whip. Itís a cord, that cord is pulled by the momentum of the cord below it. Half the sling remains as it was during the throw before release the other half is pulled by the tension as it is released.
If I could draw a diagram it could be understood easier but Iíll try.

If the weight/tension on the release cord stays the same between 3 identical release cords but one is tapered one is straight and one is opposite tapered it makes the most sense that a tapered one would open faster. All that opens them is the tension on the cord, so as that tension is pulled straight it moves the fastest on a tapered release. I hope this makes sense without a diagram . Think about a whip and that might help.
Having weight in the pouch is going to pull the release cord.
Hold a regular sling and put tension on the pouch with your hand , let go of the cord and it will open as your still adding tension. The more tension the faster it will open. Or on the other side reduce the overall weight of the release cord.
There is actually more too it and the angles flexibility and elasticity of the cords can change it but as far as I understand it canít open faster with a reverse taper it goes against my understanding of energy transfer.
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #26 - Jul 31st, 2020 at 4:37am
 
@Mersa I am not fully understanding what you mean but I will read it again thoroughly later and try to grasp it.

By tying a little weight at the end of my Y-slings release cord, the releases are even cleaner now.

@Sarosh
OK I will respond seriously now.

Biconical in flight at different yaw angles.

To optimally throw a glande point first with a long efficient sling is a matter of pure luck. Because on a long efficient sling the pouch orientation cannot be controlled by the hand accurately no more. It was the problem of this thread.† It can happen occassionally by random but you are going to lose a lot of glandes in imperfect throws. A lot of times they will be launched at a yaw angle like shown in D, E, F creating a lot of drag.

Does a biconical launched from a sling really start flying point first and end point first into the ground? Or does it land like a rugby ball, at yaw langes such as E or worse...

A biconical bullet type shape is better for gun barrels, but the sling doesn't shoot, it throws.

I would like to see what could be thrown further by hand, a normal baseball or a rugby shaped baseball..



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''He leads the humble in what is right,
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #27 - Jul 31st, 2020 at 5:22am
 
I also feel adding weight to the end of release cord makes for a very unclean release. Perhaps you can get away using light cords and a light weight at the end but if you made a balearic with reversed taper it would throw horribly. Even adding moderate weight to the end of braided slings has a really poor effect.

Balearic throws clean because when you push the thicker part of the release cord the rest simply whips out of the way. Reverse this and you have a cord which would almost hook on and really interfere with release.
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #28 - Jul 31st, 2020 at 5:27am
 
That's probably right, as to me, tapering makes no sense on slings in the first place, whether its up or down. All I do know is that with a little weight at the end of my paracord sling it releases cleaner and quicker. I also do not think an upside down taper is desirable. But a thin cord with some weight at the end seems to open my sling up quicker, without cracker or any of that. The momentum of the weight at the end of the release cord seems to bust its way through the air quicker than a feathery release cord.
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #29 - Jul 31st, 2020 at 5:47am
 
My Y-slings release quick, but throwing more and more with singleweight bolas I am still noticing a delay. I think applying the other known methods of hastening a release, in this case removing the fluffy tail, reducing the weight of the cord at the base and increasing it at the end in a litle weight, I can finetune the release of the Y-sling to be nearly identical to that of the one stone bola.† My accuracy with the one stone bola is way, way better than with a shepherd sling. I do not think I am a human anomaly, I think this is perfectly explanaible and will apply to everyone. If I can make my Y-slings to be nearly identical in release, I've got a really useful sling.
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''He leads the humble in what is right,
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