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Problem with thin efficient slings (Read 859 times)
jauke
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Problem with thin efficient slings
Jul 28th, 2020 at 12:38pm
 
I am playing around with ultralight thin efficient slings (convential ones not Y), but
it makes controlling the rotational axis very hard as the cords offer no resistance to torsion.

I am also having a hard time retaining stones with them using a wide grip, not because of torsion instability in the pouch (solved this with a cradle set up) but because of the cord length that sways up and down with a wide grip. Then I find myself reverting back to using a pinch grip as this creates a lot of stability in the pouch but makes control of the rotational axis even worse, thus I cannot consistently produce rifled shots with it.

I still like the efficiency of thin cords but will we ever solve this problem for thin slings? is the solution to just go back to less efficient but torsion resistant Balearic slings?
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #1 - Jul 28th, 2020 at 1:39pm
 
The solution is to use the same style each time, become consistent with it and make sure the spin you are getting is perfectly rifled. I’ve seen no problem with them. I can assure you a high degree of  accuracy is possible with cords at least as thin as paracord. No need for massive cords if you choose not to use them.
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #2 - Jul 28th, 2020 at 2:19pm
 
yes that is another reason you cant go too long on the cords , there is little torsion resistance.
I'm trying to figure things out because I made a paracord sling and I get angles of attack more random than the tightly braided natural fiber slings. Maybe if I improve in the paracord low torsion then it will benefit my control with the better torsion slings.
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #3 - Jul 28th, 2020 at 3:53pm
 
I went slinging with a much more torsion resistant sling tonight, the effiency just feels terrible compared to the thin slings tbh  Undecided And when I go full power (pirouette) with the torsion resistant sling with tapered release cord, the heavy stones really pull hard on the release cord on release, which really hurts the elbow after a while and eats up a lot of energy 
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #4 - Jul 28th, 2020 at 4:25pm
 
you'll have to find the mean and that is personal. I like thin tightly braided split pouches, right now it's the best choice for me for performance ,accuracy , lifetime. I want more lifetime(thicker) but that would get in the way of the other two and that I dont like, I'm performance over lifetime. I had slings that lasted a month and that didnt bother me because they were performing good and others that lasted many more shots but didn't like them and used them for tossing around very abrasive ammo or for warm ups.
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #5 - Jul 28th, 2020 at 4:39pm
 
What problems with controlling the rotational axis did you encounter more specifically? My current sling is very thin and light, too. However my only problems were that the stones flipped out during windup from time to time.

You could try wrapping the sling's coords tightly with another fine yarn, by that they get more stiff just like wire, while staying light.
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #6 - Jul 28th, 2020 at 11:08pm
 
My solution to this problem was to shorten my slings considerably so that I can have relatively thick, stable cords. Because I believe you are bio-mechanically limited to how fast you can throw with short slings, you can make them thicker without losing power for the most part. I still make my slings a lot lighter than Luis's though, as they are designed for a giant!
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #7 - Jul 29th, 2020 at 12:30am
 
So, the issue here is that thin, light cords tend to not stay in place as well (i.e., twist) and that affects retention? Because I've been using rather thin slings recently, and I've notice some twisting as well (Though I'm not sure how it's affecting my slinging.)
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jauke
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #8 - Jul 29th, 2020 at 7:02am
 
Sarosh wrote on Jul 28th, 2020 at 2:19pm:
yes that is another reason you cant go too long on the cords , there is little torsion resistance.
I'm trying to figure things out because I made a paracord sling and I get angles of attack more random than the tightly braided natural fiber slings. Maybe if I improve in the paracord low torsion then it will benefit my control with the better torsion slings.


We know how a sling should be positioned on release for a proper rifled spin.

Attaining this pouch-orientation becomes harder and harder the more flexible, thin and long the sling is, for the reasons we stated.

Understanding this explains why thicker slings were generally favored, it is no longer a mystery why many feel more ''control and consistency'' with a thicker sling. This phenomenom becomes perfectly explainable.

Yet, thinner cords are more efficient for slings, there's no doubt about this. But the increased effiency seems to go hand in hand with decreased consistency, thus more chaotic erratic shots, althought they will fly harder, further and faster, and occassionally the perfect release even on an ultra long thin convential sling with a tiny glande will succeed. But doing it consistently is...not really possible.


Since the pouch orientation on thin efficient long slings cant properly controlled anyway, we might as well exclude a ''pouch orientation feature'' from the sling.

And as a result we get the story of the Y-sling and the spherical projectile.  I think, thin efficient cord lovers will feel right at home with Y-slings.  There is really no reason for thick cords to exist on Y-slings as there is with a convential slings. The fact that convential slings are generally preferred with thicker stiffer cords tells us a lot about the nature of the device. Is the convential sling really a sling at the truest sense of the word, or something different?


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jauke
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #9 - Jul 29th, 2020 at 8:25am
 
I remember Jax/Burner Y-slings having attachments for fins on the pouch, fins that stabilize the pouch and allow a consistent pouch orientation on a Y-sling. That allowed the Y-sling to produce a perfect backspin and other type of spins depending on the configuration of the fin.
Maybe a fin on a convential sling pouch will also stabilize the pouch orientation, without having to go to stiffer and thicker cords to solve this issue. Although if the fins produce as much energy loss as stifer/thicker cords its not worth it

Although any such modernization will shriek pure traditionalists, like modern compound bows with their pulleys and cables shriek traditional archers. However, luckily any complexity added to the sling is still much simpler than complexity added to bows.
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jauke
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #10 - Jul 29th, 2020 at 8:49am
 
Ah here it is
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jauke
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #11 - Jul 29th, 2020 at 10:00am
 
I correct my previous statements. The Y-sling DOES have the same pouch-orientation problems known with thing long convential slings. Thus thicker cords are not automatically removed from the equation from Y-slings.

However, in my experience this pouch orientation of a Y-sling corrects itself easier than that of a normal sling. If it is not 100% perfect the projectile will ''push it'' perfect as it wants to take the path of flight, which is inline with the release cords. With the pinch grip, the majority of the time the release part of the Y is in front where it should be. However ,Jax'' fins-setup seem to correct the pouch into the right direction more flawlessly, at the cost of adding drag. His fins seem to do the same thing as thicker/stiffer cords
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #12 - Jul 29th, 2020 at 10:56am
 
Apex-apoc wrote on Sep 13th, 2017 at 8:07am:
Curious Aardvark wrote on Sep 11th, 2017 at 3:58pm:
Given that due to the variation in atmosphere density and air currents - a none rotating ball is effected much more - which is why knuckle balls move around unpredictably. And balls with spin behave more predictably.


But slinging is not pitching knuckelballs or baseball. This phenomenon relates not slinging, where it is exactly reverse: That spin that could make your trajectory more predictable you can not predict, because you can not predict the turning angel of the pouch while release. How your hand turns is not (immediately) how the pouch turns (and oscillates), and that means, you can not controll (not totally / exactly) the spin direction.

How the ball or stone comes out of the pouch is (done by) "pure random".


I have thrown a lot of stones with high spin that was flown through the air on a "screwby shaped" trajectory, rised up, pressed to the left, to the right or pressed down to the ground - UNPREDICTED and not intended in each case! And you want to tell us, you could predict the one ore the other result / effect of spinned stones or balls?

I say while slinging spinballs the trajectory (and range) is MORE unpredictably than by slinging knuckelballs, and a spin helps first if the bullet has a biconical shape or gets fired by fire arms, where the spin direction is "forced" by the gun barrel.

Also I reached the 350 m mark the first time after using a hunting-sling ("nearly zero spin") for the first time. Thats because the range of a hunting sling (hunter sling) is much more (!) than the range of a sheperd or balearic sling.

The advantage of the hunting sling is not only the 10 or 15 % saved energy for the (suppressed high) spin but also the saved "mouse meters" that goes lost if the trajectory became a srewby or sth. even worse.


http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1504704106/47#47

This is the first time I read this post.  What Apex says here is interesting. With ''hunting sling'' he is referring to a Y-sling, that I know from his previous posts.
It's almost scary because what he is saying is totally in line with my thinking. And I am definitely not trying to troll anybody.

I ordered some 20mm and 30mm steel balls so I can do better range testing with Y-sling soon.

I am not expecting to break world records but if I can break my own record I know it works. I live below sea-level so world records are not going to be broken here.
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jauke
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #13 - Jul 29th, 2020 at 11:01am
 
Again it also makes obvious why Balearics use such stiff cords, a stiffer cords translates to better control over how the pouch turns. They've optimized their slings for that.
And as a result the range of the Balearic slingers is lacking compared to other slingers, but consistent accuracy at shorter ranges is higher.
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Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Reply #14 - Jul 29th, 2020 at 12:33pm
 
jauke wrote on Jul 29th, 2020 at 10:56am:
I ordered some 20mm and 30mm steel balls so I can do better range testing with Y-sling soon.


I cant see how you'll be able to differentiate the results you'll get from y vs traditional slings using steel BBs.  steel bbs are very smooth I expect similar release friction from both designs, spin orientation will have very little impact on trajectory because of the smooth spherical shape and the high density.
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