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Frictionless slings (Read 1097 times)
jauke
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Frictionless slings
Jul 1st, 2020 at 5:05pm
 
Oh no.. here we go again  Grin

In my mind we now have 2 main classes of slings:

Friction slings
These are the slings we all use and the slings that have been used for a very long time.
They consist of a string with an enlarged middle or a pouch, the projectile is placed in the pouch and slung. On release there is a slight delay as the pouch opens and the projectile rolls out of the pouch. The projectile is released with a very large spin effect. The sling could also be a single cord with a grooved projectile balancing on that cord. The principle of this sling is the same. 

Frictionless slings

A true frictionless sling that could utilize any rock is still something that doesn't exist to my knowledge. Optimally it would be a single cord with a weight on the end, a weight one could throw without throwing the cord.
There would be no delay on release no matter the size, weight or shape of the projectile, the release is the same every time. There would be no friction induced spin effect.


The benefit of the standard friction slings is obvious, a stabilizing rifling effect or spin can be given to projectiles. A friction sling is also very simple of design. The only downside of this sling is that it relies on consistent projectiles that can roll for consistent accuracy. The accuracy is greatly diminished or the skill ceiling significantly increased if non-consistent ammo is used (every different weight after all has a different delay and therefore release). This is why friction slingers (all of us) seek out the best and well weighted stones they can find. The answer to all friction slingers problems are simple: a smooth sling, good practice and good stones.

Now un to frictionless slings. These slings would release the projectile, no matter its shape, size or weight, exactly on release of the fingers. No friction would mean less dependence on consistent, rolling ammo. ''Specific'' ammo is not required. It could be any size or shape of stone that you can handle

A true frictionless sling does not exist to my knowledge. The closest thing we have is some sort of Y-sling. But even this design is not perfected, there is still some friction thus some spin, but not spin that is of great use. Initially I thought this friction was ideal for disks but this is too little, the regular sling (albeit adapted) is better for disks since disks require friction to fly.

Anyway, now the purpose of this thread, how do we design the best frictionless sling, or at least one that comes as close to it as possible? Not because we seek to solve a problem, contrary to my previous threads, I believe now the regular sling has no problem that can't be solved through proper construction, training and proper ammo.

This thread is simply about possible frictionless sling designs or atleast possible designs that aspire to be frictionless. Why a frictionless sling? Not to replace or compete with the friction sling (it can never.) but rather as addition, for throwing bad stones. I am eager to see what we can come up with, so we can open up a larger spectrum of shit we can sling without damaging our precious normal slings. Of course we can also sling all kinds of shit with regular friction slings but it is not desirable for the friction sling, or any kind of accurate.

So this thread is for discussing sling designs that are potentially frictionless or at least aspire to be, so they can throw anything without damaging the sling or its short distance accuracy and skill potential.
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Jaegoor
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Re: Frictionless slings
Reply #1 - Jul 1st, 2020 at 6:32pm
 
Ich verstehe denn Gedanken. Das Problem verstehe ich nicht. Haben sie ein saubere Technik, ist die Form und das Gewicht fast egal. Juanjo Caballero schießt die schlechtesten Steine die sie sich vorstellen können. Kantig und von unterschiedlichsten gewichten. Und er trifft. Er gehört zu denn besten Mallorcas. Videos von ihm wurden hier immer wieder gezeigt. Ich selbst wähle meine Steine sehr sehr genau aus. Nicht nur die Form. Auch das Gewicht. Ja es gibt sogar eine bestimmte steinsorte die ich bevorzuge. Roter Granit aus Norwegen. In Deutschland finden sie diesen nur an der Ostsee. Er ist extrem stabil. Ich habe Steine die ich schon Jahre lang schieße ohne sie zu zerbrechen. Im Schnitt zerstöre ich im Jahr von diesem Stein maximal zwei Stück. Aber die Suche danach ist sehr mühsam.
Ich selbst erhöhe bei meiner sling die Reibung mit wax.
Glatte Steine halten sich besser. Und der Schuß erreicht eine sehr hohe führigkeit.
Und es Schützt meine sling vor Abrieb. Es gibt jedoch eine Methode Reibung zu verringern. Ich habe eine sling Konstruktion, welche auf Zug reagiert. Der brief ist aus Leder. Ich nannte diese sling Honda popular. Auf Zug zieht sich der Brief der Länge nach zusammen. Der Stein rollt nur noch auf der außen kante. So hat er sehr wenig Reibung. Nachteil. Die Sling ist schwierig zu schießen. Sie löst sehr viel schneller aus. Bevorzugt verwende ich kugelförmige Steine.
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Re: Frictionless slings
Reply #2 - Jul 1st, 2020 at 6:51pm
 
A really frictionless sling would be a hard ring made to fit spherical ammo. Then the ring would just pivot on the retention cord and move out of the way of the projectile. Very little to move.
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Mersa
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Re: Frictionless slings
Reply #3 - Jul 1st, 2020 at 7:28pm
 
Single cord design is easy but it still requires a “basket” pouch.
As in the pouch still has a retention and release side.

Truely I can’t see it being much of an advantage making a special sling to throw crap rocks. Crap rocks fly crap. No mater what amount of spin is placed on the stone it’s still aerodynamiclly flawed. Even if the internal ballistics is perfect the external ballistics isn’t.

I admire your persistence.
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Morphy
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Re: Frictionless slings
Reply #4 - Jul 1st, 2020 at 7:41pm
 
What Mersa said.

I’m envisioning sort of the opposite. Instead of crap rocks what about weighted perfectly consistent darts that lock in to the single cord from the nock end of the dart. The “release tab” would just be a button on the actual retention cord that releases whatever locking mechanism that the dart hooked into. It would be far from primitive/traditional but I bet it would be fun to use. Potentially you could throw very heavy and deadly darts at metal glande speeds. Interesting combo there.
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jauke
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Re: Frictionless slings
Reply #5 - Jul 2nd, 2020 at 1:55am
 
I personally have no desire for more specialist slings, the regular sling is specialist enough to me. Specialist as in: a requirement of certain projectile. Although I have no problem with others pondering specialist sling designs like trigger dart slings. Please do post if you have ideas. They still sound cool.

I agree bad stones will still have bad external ballistics. But if you solve the internal ballistics problem you've gotten a long way to make them more useable.

Now what Jaegoor is saying is interesting. He says that if you have a clean technology, the shape and weight are almost irrelevant. He is also saying that you can become accurate with bad stones. I agree with the latter, not the former. It is possible, but it makes it even so much harder. It becomes harder because internally and externally the ballistics are corrupt. The design of the normal sling is fully opposed to bad rocks.  It can be done but you will damage your sling and accuracy. The cleanest and well build sling is still not build for bad rocks. This is inherent to the basic design and can't be removed. Minimizing friction on a regular sling is pointless, because it is a part of its very function. It would be like decreasing rifling from a rifled barrel.

Now aside from that Jaegoor is also saying he has a sling he calls the Honda Popular. This is a sling with a leather pouch. This type of sling he is saying releases with very little friction as the stone only rolls on the outside edge. So it triggers much faster and becomes much harder to shoot, according to him.

I understand a quicker releasing, less friction sling will be harder to use if you are used to a regular sling with more friction. But it is not harder overall, it's just a matter of what you are accustomed to. Generally speaking, less friction is easier. A bola has no internal friction upon release and new people can throw it right usually after only a minute, but the sling needs more tries because the delay has to be worked in.

That being said, I woud say there is no need for a regular friction sling that minimizes friction, after all the design is build to utilize it, so is beter to not see friction as a problem for regular slings but instead as an oppertunity to perfect, which the Balearics did.

Below Jaegoors Honda Popular:
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honda_popular.jpg (41 KB | 0 )
honda_popular.jpg

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Re: Frictionless slings
Reply #6 - Jul 2nd, 2020 at 3:41am
 
jauke wrote on Jul 1st, 2020 at 5:05pm:
now the purpose of this thread, how do we design the best frictionless sling, or at least one that comes as close to it as possible?


A string attached to a weight is the closest we can get to frictionless. it feels weaker than a regular sling. it is similar to the y-sling on the regard that the force is felt mainly on the release cord and it's not equal between release and retention.

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jauke
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Re: Frictionless slings
Reply #7 - Jul 2nd, 2020 at 5:21am
 
You may be right. But why does it not feel as powerful?
Is it purely because of the trailing string?

The more we refine the regular friction sling, the more capable it becomes for good stones
Eventually the friction sling can be refined to the degree of it just being a super efficient single cord sling, but now it can only sling highly specific grooved ammo (yo-yo sling).

Since we want to be able to sling good stones that we can pick up from nature, we don't refine it that far, we refine it only to a degree so we can still balance good natural stones, this is why the most refined slings are split pouches like the Balearics and they are the most optimal design for good natural ammo.

But the more we refine the friction sling to work good with good stones, the less well they will work with bad stones. Split pouches are not as good with bad stones as solid pouches from a theoretical standpoint. And with total refinement, resulting in the single cord string yo-yo sling, it can no longer sling any kind of natural ammo.

  So Jaegoors Honda Popular is created, a sling with a solid leather pouch instead of a split pouch. He called it Popular for a reason I think, because solid leather pouches are popular, they are a compromise.
This sling has sacrificed some refinement for better capability for slinging bad stones.


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jauke
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Re: Frictionless slings
Reply #8 - Jul 2nd, 2020 at 5:33am
 
Now I will state again that a frictionless sling can't compete with a regular sling nor replace it nor do I believe it to be better in any shape or form anymore.
It's just fun to discuss and think about, it's a good brain exercize, and possibly a fun gimmick to use, like the shotgun sling.

The shotgun slings from Timpa are all based on trying to eliminate friction so the shot stays close together, he utilizes a release cup that releases on the bottom, it's a possible method.
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Re: Frictionless slings
Reply #9 - Jul 2nd, 2020 at 7:54am
 
jauke wrote on Jul 2nd, 2020 at 5:21am:
But why does it not feel as powerful?
Is it purely because of the trailing string?


As I said it feels less powerful, haven't gone through the effort to analyze and compare footage.
having most of the force on the release means you need a tighter grip and that costs speed.
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Re: Frictionless slings
Reply #10 - Jul 2nd, 2020 at 8:57am
 
jauke wrote on Jul 2nd, 2020 at 1:55am:
.



Now what Jaegoor is saying is interesting. He says that if you have a clean technology, the shape and weight are almost irrelevant. He is also saying that you can become accurate with bad stones.



Define accurate. Define bad stones.

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Re: Frictionless slings
Reply #11 - Jul 2nd, 2020 at 8:59am
 
well if you used steel or magnetite ammo and a flexible wire with a powerful electro magnet at the end.
Then you could simply switch the magnet off to release.

So that's not hard to do Smiley
You'd probably need to wear a back pack sized battery to get the magent strong enough. but it would work.

Obviously you still have air friction so the missile would still move about - like a baseball pitchers 'knuckle ball'.

But that's the best way to do it.

Until physicists wake up, realise they know bugger all and finally figure out how to control gravity. Then you're limited to magnetically active/sensitive materials.

On a side note, I have quite a few magnetite glands and also magnetite spheres - all would be great for slinging - the spheres with frintionless sling and the glandes with normal sling.
As you'd never recover them - I've never bothered slinging any.
Some years back they had them in poundland - and I bought quite a few Smiley

Look up 'snake eggs' on amazon Smiley
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Re: Frictionless slings
Reply #12 - Jul 2nd, 2020 at 11:09am
 
I suppose even throwing a stone with your hand involves some friction - You could see the palm as the retention cord, and the fingers as the release cord. They "pinch" the projectile until the release, upon which the fingers fly forward to allow the stone to leave the hand. It's possible to get a rifle spin on a stone when throwing this way (This is how American footballs are thrown more accurately, apparently.) So, I would say that in order for a sling to be frictionless, it would either (A) have to be a fundamentally different kind of throw, or (B) made from a hypothetical frictionless material... But maybe not made from it entirely, or the whole sling would fly out of your hand. Grin

Sarosh wrote on Jul 2nd, 2020 at 3:41am:
A string attached to a weight is the closest we can get to frictionless. it feels weaker than a regular sling. it is similar to the y-sling on the regard that the force is felt mainly on the release cord and it's not equal between release and retention.

Another thing that could come close to frictionless is essentially a rigid pole with a cup or bowl on the end. My reasoning is that it would be like tossing a ball in the air with an open palm. The motion would be essentially a quick thrust downrange, and the projectile would fly free - I guess that would be moving away from the sling, however, and more toward the catapult (Or maybe a javelin thrower?)

I feel like CA's idea with the electromagnet has the most merit when it comes to improving the single-cord design, but I wonder if it would be possible to create a mechanism built into the projectile that could do the same thing? Perhaps you could use a wire in a tube (Like they use in brake mechanisms on bicycles), attaching to some kind of hook or catch inside the projectile, and, when the wire is pulled (perhaps with some kind of trigger), lets the projectile free?
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Jaegoor
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Re: Frictionless slings
Reply #13 - Jul 2nd, 2020 at 4:35pm
 
Alex, dies wird nicht funktionieren. Stößt ein magnet auf einen Leiter wird er abgestoßen. Aber auch gebremst. Ein ICE funktioniert etwas anders. 😁
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Re: Frictionless slings
Reply #14 - Jul 2nd, 2020 at 6:07pm
 
then just use ordinary steel or iron Smiley
Ball bearings would work well.
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