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Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance? (Read 453 times)
Shakli
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Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance?
May 27th, 2020 at 1:41am
 
Interested in your thoughts.  Is hitting a target 50x50cm at 10m  the same difficulty as hitting a 100x100cm target at 20m?
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Morphy
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Re: Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance?
Reply #1 - May 27th, 2020 at 1:50am
 
At lower distances possibly.  At longer ranges you have increased variables such as windage, elevation, having to increase your throwing power for longer distance throws etc. All add difficulty. So I would say no for longer ranges.
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Re: Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance?
Reply #2 - May 27th, 2020 at 3:49am
 
in the past I believed to be so.
from 10 to 20m the difference is small from 30 to 40m the difference in difficulty is bigger. has to do with drag.
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Re: Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance?
Reply #3 - May 27th, 2020 at 3:50am
 
Yeah I would agree with Morphy. I believe it was JudoP set up an indoor range and calculated the size of the target so that it was the proportionally the same size as a standard Balearic target at 20 feet which is pretty genius. I think for those sorts of ranges it's close enough for it not to be a waste of time.
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JudoP
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Re: Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance?
Reply #4 - May 27th, 2020 at 6:48am
 
Yes in theory this holds as:

Tan(ang_size/2) = actual_size / (2*distance)

Or for small angles (in radians):

ang_size = actual_size / distance

Any scaling operation such as doubling, halving etc simply cancels in the expression leaving the angular size unchanged.

There are some other factors though, for example your ammo size scales favourably when you move to a smaller/closer target, so it's easier to get glancing blows (where the centre of your ammo might not be on target yet the edge catches it). To visualise this just imagine how much easier it would be to glance a balearic target with a large beachball compared to a bb. I found this to be a significant effect for scaling a balearic target down from 20m to 4m range, it probably cut a further 10-15% in diameter to get a true like for like comparison.

As others have mentioned there are also other effects which come into play such as aerodynamics, drop and the requirement for higher power throws. People are generally less accurate with powerful throws and projectiles that are moving faster will experience greater aerodynamic effects which can cause unpredictable swerving.
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Re: Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance?
Reply #5 - May 27th, 2020 at 7:52am
 
No Smiley
lol

From a purely perspective point of view - the target is approximately the same size.

BUT the extra effort required to throw the extra distance, changes everything.

So training for a fixed target size and distance by using a 1/4 sized target at 1/4 the distance will not help you in any significant way when you have to throw the real distance.

Things like air resistance, gravity and missile weight are all things that you can ONLY take into account at the proper distance.
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance?
Reply #6 - May 27th, 2020 at 8:24am
 
Theoretically you could simulate all of those things. Light weight ammo and a heavy sling would feel like youíre throwing for a longer distance with heavier ammo. Wind resistance will affect the light ammo over a shorter distance, etc. It would be difficult to calibrate, but I donít think CAís blanket ďnoĒ is quite correct. Itís plausible, but you would need to modify the ammo, sling, AND target to simulate a specific ammo at a specific distance.† You would just need a way to characterize your short distance  ammo and compare it to the long-distance throw you are simulating... which would also have to be characterized.
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Re: Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance?
Reply #7 - May 27th, 2020 at 8:48am
 
Hereís an idea... an empty plastic Easter egg could be used indoors and loses its energy to air resistance really fast. If you use a sling loaded with an extra 40-60g then you might actually get close to simulating longer ranges in your living room.
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Re: Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance?
Reply #8 - May 27th, 2020 at 8:52am
 
Iím with the others, itís the other factors that raise the difficulty as you get further away.
Itís because the sling isnít all that fast and the further you go back you either need more power or a change in the launch angle.
Personally I notice it with my figure 8 style the most. Itís very accurate to a certain distance but then it becomes too hard to get the power or launch angle needed to reach the target.
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance?
Reply #9 - May 27th, 2020 at 10:41am
 
Mersa wrote on May 27th, 2020 at 8:52am:
Iím with the others, itís the other factors that raise the difficulty as you get further away.
Itís because the sling isnít all that fast and the further you go back you either need more power or a change in the launch angle.
Personally I notice it with my figure 8 style the most. Itís very accurate to a certain distance but then it becomes too hard to get the power or launch angle needed to reach the target.


With a figure 8, you lose some of your range of motion as you increase the vertical angle of release, so you lose power as your arm has less and less arc to move through. It might feel awkward at first but you might be able to lean your torso backwards to increase your angle without reducing your range of motion.

Either way I think it would be an accomplishment to replicate the experience of a 50-100 yard throw in Shakliís living room.
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Shakli
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Re: Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance?
Reply #10 - May 27th, 2020 at 2:22pm
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on May 27th, 2020 at 10:41am:
[quote author=624A5D5C4E2F0 link=1590558087/8#8 date=1590583976]

Either way I think it would be an accomplishment to replicate the experience of a 50-100 yard throw in Shakliís living room.


lol
Well looks like I will get to try it out this weekend.  Smiley  Public parks open up tomorrow and I made a target that is detailed in the International Competition Rules.  That target is exactly two times as big as the one I use in my living room.  Wonder if my accuracy stays the same at 10m.  I really hope it does.  As for the 30m distance that kinda scares me, I am not sure I can even throw that far with my sling.
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Morphy
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Re: Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance?
Reply #11 - May 27th, 2020 at 2:30pm
 
Do you plan on taking detailed notes on the accuracy on the outside one at 10m? One thing Iíve always wondered about is if the Balearic target having just a large black circle is actually more difficult to hit than something with a center point to focus on. I would be curious if your consistency changes at all due to that effect.
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Mersa
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Re: Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance?
Reply #12 - May 27th, 2020 at 6:06pm
 
I thought this also Morphy.
I like the aim small miss small
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Morphy
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Re: Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance?
Reply #13 - May 27th, 2020 at 7:51pm
 
Mersa wrote on May 27th, 2020 at 6:06pm:
I thought this also Morphy.
I like the aim small miss small


Right. I always wished they would add a small 5 inch center circle as a bullseye. As the slinging community gets better and the competition level rises hopefully that will be an option.
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Shakli
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Re: Is halving the size of a target the same as doubling your distance?
Reply #14 - May 28th, 2020 at 2:00am
 
Mersa wrote on May 27th, 2020 at 6:06pm:
I thought this also Morphy.
I like the aim small miss small



umm well yes added a 5cm bullseye so I could have something to aim at....† Don't really think I will hit it but I wanted something very specific to aim for.† Jauke has a thread up for better accuracy and well I agree with him 100%.

As for taking data I think I will follow competition rules see how I do then maybe practice a little then try again and see if my results are close to what I should get statistically from my data at home.
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