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Question: Is morality a social construct?

It's objective because it's self-evident.    
  3 (33.3%)
It's subjective; we create it.    
  6 (66.7%)




Total votes: 9
« Created by: Morphy on: Oct 2nd, 2019 at 9:22am »

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Is morality a social construct? (Read 960 times)
Morphy
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Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #45 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 7:41am
 
In my early twenties I decided to to some missionary work and spent a few years in Ohio of all places spreading the good news.

One thing I learned was Christians are, unfortunately, some of the most judgemental people ever. Especially about other Christians. I remember talking to one guy who was, by all outward indications, a devout man talk about a man down the street and explain why he was certainly going to hell because while he was a Christian he didn't interpret the Bible "correctly'. Correctly, of course, was how the first man interpreted it.

I learned how to listen to others with strong opinions without feeling the need to bash them with my own. Something I do well in real life but not as well as I should here lol.

That being said one thing I learned that has served me well is those Christians who believe they have it all figured out and are quick to judge others harshly are usually the people who are the least spiritually evolved towards God. While almost without fail those people who have had profound spiritual experiences about the Divine are usually left understanding they know less than they thought.

It's classic Dunning-Krueger effect. I guess this principle applies to all sorts of fields of knowledge.so it shouldn't surprise me. But that's been my experience and so far it's been pretty right on.
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Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #46 - Oct 10th, 2019 at 2:38pm
 
Itís funny how some people set themselves up as the ultimate authority for Biblical interpretation. If you believe the Bible is the word of God, then you make yourself the topmost authority on its interpretation, then you are effectively claiming higher authority than God! 

My standard for interpretation is that, if God is perfect, and if the Bible is divine, then any interpretations must be internally consistent with the rest of the Bible. If my interpretation is inconsistent with any part of the scriptures, then my understanding is the thing thatís wrong. To do otherwise is to either claim that God is logically inconsistent or that I know better than God.
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Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #47 - Oct 11th, 2019 at 4:06am
 
As a student of biology/sociology, there is no "objective morality". Different species and different intra-niches display different moral values in different situations. The problem lies in humans' ability to think about it. An objective morality as simple as "do not kill" becomes encumbered. There is no objective morality demonstrated in human culture, though there is congruence with other socially focused species that reciprocate favor. It's sad to think that the ability to aim urine may well lead to the extinction of half the species on this planet. Throwing things at it isn't working. We need slings. If the Earth was seen as a host, we are a virus. All virus's should have slings. One of my cats drives a Porsche.
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Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #48 - Oct 11th, 2019 at 7:57am
 
morality is intrinsically self determined.

I personally - think it's immoral to claim your god is the one and only god.
There are thousands of gods worshipped around the world. Logic would dictate that if one god exists, then so do others. So why should any individual god be any more correct or valid than any other ?

Plus all historical texts are written by people. Often after long periods of sleep and nutrient deprivation - hallucinations ?
Probably.

As far as religion and morality goes - yeah, not so much. The majority of religions encourage disparagement and prosecution of other religions.

The whole concept of a 'missionary' is that people with beliefs different to yours are clearly wrong.

I'm not an atheist (and it's a fairly safe bet my god, isn't yours), but I am against organised religion.
I respect everyone's right to believe whatever they like, while believing that nobody has the right to force their beliefs on anyone else.

My morals are unique to me, and while I might (okay, will) argue any point with anyone, anywhere. that's simply because I love arguing. I will also uphold your right to believe whatever you like.

One of the worst religious fanatics on the planet is Richard dawkins. A man so convinced he is right, that he has made a career of telling other people what they should and should not believe. The very definition of a religious fanatic.
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Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One †- works for me Smiley
 
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Morphy
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Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #49 - Oct 11th, 2019 at 8:53am
 
"The whole concept of a 'missionary' is that people with beliefs different to yours are clearly wrong."


Lol. To be fair CA the same could be said about anyone's beliefs. We all believe what we believe because we think it's right. If someone else disagrees with us we think they are wrong. We have all disagreed with each other on this forum at one time or another, nothing immoral about that.

To believe one has something worth sharing is not necessarily malicious, even though at times ideas are forced on others through threats of violence which violates the non-aggression principle and that would be wrong.
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Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #50 - Oct 11th, 2019 at 11:49am
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 11th, 2019 at 7:57am:
One of the worst religious fanatics on the planet is Richard dawkins. A man so convinced he is right, that he has made a career of telling other people what they should and should not believe. The very definition of a religious fanatic.


I was a completely insufferable atheist for much of my teens. I loved Dawkins and was fully on board... then I realised that actually, religion and religious beliefs and spirituality are almost universal aspects to every society that has ever existed on Earth. To deny that entirely and actively go against it is to deny part of the human experience and just leads to higher blood pressure and pointless rage that helps no-one.
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Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #51 - Oct 11th, 2019 at 12:04pm
 
There's a book titled
The Curmudgeon's Guide to Getting Ahead: Dos and Don'ts of Right Behavior, Tough Thinking, Clear Writing, and Living a Good Life

which makes a similar point there Kick. For me, part of the trip back to faith was the realization that for all the minds I'd touched, read, listened to, or interacted with. The ones that I looked at and said "you are a better man than I am. I ought to be more like you" none of them lacked faith. Sure I had found tough minded men that I still respect who lacked faith, but none of them inspired the "you're a better man than I".
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Morphy
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Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #52 - Oct 11th, 2019 at 1:41pm
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Oct 10th, 2019 at 2:38pm:
Itís funny how some people set themselves up as the ultimate authority for Biblical interpretation. If you believe the Bible is the word of God, then you make yourself the topmost authority on its interpretation, then you are effectively claiming higher authority than God!†

My standard for interpretation is that, if God is perfect, and if the Bible is divine, then any interpretations must be internally consistent with the rest of the Bible. If my interpretation is inconsistent with any part of the scriptures, then my understanding is the thing thatís wrong. To do otherwise is to either claim that God is logically inconsistent or that I know better than God.


I think that's a good way to put it. I think when it comes to matters of belief the best we can do is try to find internal consistency with what we believe, even if others might disagree.

My experience has been that in fact, no one, believes exactly as anyone else. I would be concerned for someone if they did. There's always going to be some small point someone May differ on. Christians need to let go of the need to enforce their beliefs on other Christians or non-christians. Of course in saying this I am not talking about sharing beliefs as I mentioned previously. Im not a fan of fire and brimstone sermons designed to shame or terrify into "being good".

I don't think hearts truly change through fear. You might get a short term change but eventually I think true progression comes from a desire to know peace and let go of one's own pain and fears. Anyways, yep I agree with ya NOOC. Well said.
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Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #53 - Oct 12th, 2019 at 9:26am
 
My experience is that most of the people who are strongly opposed to the concepts of morality in the Bible havenít studied the concepts for themselves.†

I would encourage anyone who thinks Christianity is wrong to go prove it to themselves. Go read the Bible with a skepticís eye and look for contradictions.† Itís easy to find contradictions if you want to only† look at the behavior of Christians instead of the Bible itself. Horrible things have been done in the name of Christianity, but the fact that all people (Christian or otherwise) are naturally evil is one of the foundational premises of Christianity. Weíre all hypocrites. Nobody lives up to Godís moral standards. Thatís exactly why we need a savior to begin with.

Thatís Christianity 101: If you arenít already hopelessly flawed, then you donít really need Jesus. Without the concept of Godís redemption plan for a hopelessly evil humanity, the Bible is just an irrelevant old book that tells silly stories... like the story about the time when humanityís concepts of right and wrong came from eating a piece of fruit!†

The Bible actually admits that the Bible appears foolish to those who do not believe it, but when someone does choose to believe it... itís life-changing.
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Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #54 - Oct 12th, 2019 at 10:49am
 
I discussed a train of thought disproving the logic of god w/ a friend and he showed me this (picture below). I found it interesting so I'm sharing.
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Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #55 - Oct 12th, 2019 at 1:21pm
 
Good food for thought Sarosh. Now re-read that with the premise that everyone is evil Grin
It is conceivable that God allows evil for a time to also enable free will but that in the end there will be complete justice. If I am evil then I am glad God doesnít immediately destroy all evil, but I also look forward to an afterlife without evil that I get to be a part of.
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Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #56 - Oct 12th, 2019 at 1:24pm
 
Hereís another way to think about it:
The Bible also  says God shows both mercy and grace. If there was perfect and immediate justice then mercy and grace would be impossible.
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Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #57 - Oct 12th, 2019 at 2:09pm
 
The devil in these discussions always comes down to definitions. What do you mean by "good" or "evil" or "loving" or "all powerful"? Then you get the second tier questions, how are pain and suffering and evil related? Is free will good? Is the end product worth the process? How can we add up the good and evil? Does omnipotence allow contradiction of terms?


I can't remember or find the source of the quote but there's a quote that

"That this is complicated should not be surprising. We are discussing, after all, the existence or non-existence of God, if the matter were easily settled we would not be discussing it"
Or put less eloquently: If Epicurus's argument was utterly bulletproof and exhaustive we wouldn't be having this discussion now.
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Morphy
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Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #58 - Oct 12th, 2019 at 2:52pm
 
This is essentially The Problem of Evil. It's based on the straw man fallacy that evil serves no purpose and therefore is proof a benevolent God cannot exist.

So long as you accept that initial reasoning it seems like an easy way to disprove God. The reasoning is false though. Evil does serve a purpose in providing for the ability to excercise free will which in itself is essential for progression and a truly free creation. Otherwise the creation you are creating is nothing more than an annex of yourself and essentially a robot.

The Bible does discuss this question allegorically by referring to God as the caretaker of a vineyard who is constantly working to help those branches that want to produce good fruits (works and desires) to do so more fully. It's speaking of the process of learning to excercise freewill in a productive manner and this Earth life and all its dualities of good and evil as a learning process.

The other aspect that Jesus made pretty clear was that mistakes are not necessarily evil. They are opportunities to learn and grow. Peter denied Jesus, which seems pretty serious, but through that mistake and the bitter guilt he felt from it he became a powerhouse after. The parable of the prodigal son is another example. In the end if it takes mistakes to learn a lesson that is considered an acceptable short term pain so long as you turn away from it and seek better. God's desire is for you to learn the lesson, the mistake or sin can be erased once that lesson has been learned.

Mistakes are only evil if you refuse to learn from them because you continually inflict the consequences of those poor choices on yourself without any benefit. This is the meaning of damnation- your progression has stopped.
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Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #59 - Oct 12th, 2019 at 3:33pm
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Oct 12th, 2019 at 1:21pm:
Now re-read that with the premise that everyone is evil


first of all not anyone alive is evil example is a child or newborn. Secondly, if we were all evil then it goes under the "if god is all knowing,he would know what we would do if we were tested, therefore no need to test us".

If the religion says you are evil by definition , humans are evil (newborns/children/adults etc), then you make every course of action incapable of changing your state , you are human therefore you are always bad no matter what you do.

perpetualstudent wrote on Oct 12th, 2019 at 2:09pm:
The devil in these discussions always comes down to definitions.


That is the problem , devil is introduced by god and religion. I say there is no good or bad, we make it. I argue against your god so I use your definitions of god or evil and through logic I reach to conclusions then I test the conclusions if they comply to the initial dogma if not then the initial propositions or the dogma is wrong. It's called reductio ad absurdum.

you might argue that god is above the logic of us humans, if he is, then you following or not his morals and laws won't do you any good, he won't differ from a teapot in orbit thus god has to follow logic and causation.

perpetualstudent wrote on Oct 12th, 2019 at 2:09pm:
If Epicurus's argument was utterly bulletproof and exhaustive we wouldn't be having this discussion now.

Flatearthers could use the same argument. I used logic in many discussions without people disagreeing until the end, after that comes the emotional response they try to deny logic and they get angry. I 've done it too , many times, controlling emotions is not easy.


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