Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Poll Poll
Question: Is morality a social construct?

It's objective because it's self-evident.    
  3 (33.3%)
It's subjective; we create it.    
  6 (66.7%)




Total votes: 9
« Created by: Morphy on: Oct 2nd, 2019 at 9:22am »

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
Send Topic Print
Is morality a social construct? (Read 965 times)
Sarosh
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 445
Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #15 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 4:54pm
 
@
NooneOfConsequence

the understanding between the two parties you suggest is reached through logic not morals.
we can see the situation objectively only because we are not taking part in it when things are real we get emotional and think ourselves has the moral high ground. 

Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Funditor
****
Offline



Posts: 901
Texas
Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #16 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 7:43pm
 
You say potato. I say tomato...
If you want to split hairs on which elements are purely logic and which have moral relevance, then have fun. Both are necessary, and Iím not interested in turning this into a philosophical taxonomy discussion.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Rat Man
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 11503
New Jersey, USA
Gender: male
Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #17 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 12:44pm
 
   Morality is in the eye of the beholder.  It is different for everyone and changes with the times.  Just a handful of generations ago it was moral to burn people at the stake.  Go back a few thousand years ago and it was perfectly fine to feed people alive to wild animals while thousands cheered.  What is moral to me might not be to you and vice versa.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Morphy
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Checkmate

Posts: 4840
Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #18 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 5:36pm
 
Rat Man wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 12:44pm:
† †Morality is in the eye of the beholder.† It is different for everyone and changes with the times.† Just a handful of generations ago it was moral to burn people at the stake.† Go back a few thousand years ago and it was perfectly fine to feed people alive to wild animals while thousands cheered.† What is moral to me might not be to you and vice versa.†



True. Societal norms have changed. But has the act itself changed from being good to bad? I think we all agree subjective societal morals change. But the act itself? Did it ever change? Or has society changed as they have become more enlightened to others suffering?

I think this question gets mired in the fact that it's easy to reverse what is actually changing. I contend that the act of hurting an innocent has never changed from being good to bad, only societies ability to see it as such.
Back to top
 

"The problem with democracy is no matter who you vote for the government still gets in."
 
IP Logged
 
Morphy
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Checkmate

Posts: 4840
Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #19 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 5:38pm
 
To give a simple example if I am born without the ability to hear and then receive cochlear implants did the TV suddenly begin making noise when I had the ability to percieve it? No. Only my own perception of it changed. It always was that way.
Back to top
 

"The problem with democracy is no matter who you vote for the government still gets in."
 
IP Logged
 
JudoP
Senior Member
****
Offline


Rocks away!

Posts: 356
UK - South West
Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #20 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 7:04pm
 
It's all just particles interacting with particles, if we see some of those interactions as 'bad' and others as 'good' then it's on us.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Sarosh
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 445
Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #21 - Oct 4th, 2019 at 3:19am
 
Morphy wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 5:36pm:
I contend that the act of hurting an innocent has never changed from being good to bad


you mean bad to good?

morality is judged by subjective beings using subjective means so it is subjective.
The clarification of the question changes things to : is there an objective standpoint/judge/means with which we can say what is truly moral or not? the question then transforms to: is there something above humans that judges things? which is like asking : is there god?

are humans able to find an objective standpoint/judge/means?

what is above humans and is not a god , is the universe, it's particles and energy and it seems it has no morals and doesn't judge.

Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
perpetualstudent
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 1157
Gender: male
Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #22 - Oct 4th, 2019 at 9:47am
 
That's the point isn't it? The path from moral law to moral law giver is an old argument that contains much force. If you have rejected the idea of a moral law giver then the moral law also falls away.

As for the witch example. We don't burn witches because we don't think they exist. We no longer believe that people have sold their souls to the eternal enemy of mankind in exchange for supernatural powers that pose present threat to the community. We also no longer cut out hearts on temples. But likewise we don't do this because we do not believe that it will keep the sun from rising. If we believed that blood is necessary to for dawn to break, the only question we would be asking is "whose?"
Back to top
 

"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
IP Logged
 
joe_meadmaker
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 331
PA, USA
Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #23 - Oct 4th, 2019 at 11:31am
 
I see morality as coming from two things.† And in full disclosure, these arenít ideas I came up with, but ideas that Iíve heard and agree with.

The first thing is that as humans evolved as a social species, certain traits developed.† Things like a sense of fairness, empathy, compassion, etc.† These traits have also evolved in other social species and have been tested in chimps, monkeys, dogs, and likely other animals.† This is a really entertaining video if you havenít seen it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg.

Now those traits are needed, but by themselves we donít have morality unless weíre all striving for the same goal.† My favorite description of that goal is ďwell-beingĒ.† And as part of well-being we can have a number of things included, such as life is preferable to death, health is preferable to sickness, pleasure is preferable to pain, etc.

So for example, as an individual itís obvious to me that I donít like pain.† And because Iím part of a social group and have compassion for the others around me (at least most of the time Smiley), I donít want to cause them pain either.† If I step outside of either of the criteria, such as not showing fairness, or impeding someone's ability to be happy and healthy, I would generally be considered to be acting immorally.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Sarosh
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 445
Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #24 - Oct 4th, 2019 at 4:07pm
 
@
joe_meadmaker

so the 1st thing is that we evolved as a social species but what is the second?

I like the suggestion that we look for "well-being".
In reality we pursue well-being until we achieve it , then we need adventure .
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Morphy
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Checkmate

Posts: 4840
Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #25 - Oct 4th, 2019 at 4:50pm
 
joe_meadmaker wrote on Oct 4th, 2019 at 11:31am:
I see morality as coming from two things.† And in full disclosure, these arenít ideas I came up with, but ideas that Iíve heard and agree with.

The first thing is that as humans evolved as a social species, certain traits developed.† Things like a sense of fairness, empathy, compassion, etc.† These traits have also evolved in other social species and have been tested in chimps, monkeys, dogs, and likely other animals.† This is a really entertaining video if you havenít seen it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg.

Now those traits are needed, but by themselves we donít have morality unless weíre all striving for the same goal.† My favorite description of that goal is ďwell-beingĒ.† And as part of well-being we can have a number of things included, such as life is preferable to death, health is preferable to sickness, pleasure is preferable to pain, etc.

So for example, as an individual itís obvious to me that I donít like pain.† And because Iím part of a social group and have compassion for the others around me (at least most of the time Smiley), I donít want to cause them pain either.† If I step outside of either of the criteria, such as not showing fairness, or impeding someone's ability to be happy and healthy, I would generally be considered to be acting immorally.


Looking at it from the point of view of secularism one could see how morality might have evolved as a genetic trait that has benefits. Humans are by their nature social creatures. Large societies cannot exist indefinitely without a shared sense of morality.

A larger more cohesive society has more of a chance of overtaking smaller or more disorganized society meaning their genetic traits will be passed on to a greater extent.

This is just the secular side of the argument. I am Christian so that colors my world view as well.†

But to me it seems anything that offers a benefit is more likely than not something which will be passed down genetically, meaning, generally speaking, even if a particular action being good or bad may be something that changes, the idea that there are actually things which are morally acceptable and not might be genetically encoded.
Back to top
 

"The problem with democracy is no matter who you vote for the government still gets in."
 
IP Logged
 
joe_meadmaker
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 331
PA, USA
Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #26 - Oct 4th, 2019 at 6:32pm
 
Sarosh wrote on Oct 4th, 2019 at 4:07pm:
@
joe_meadmaker

so the 1st thing is that we evolved as a social species but what is the second?

Sorry, I could have made that more clear.† The second thing is the goal of well-being.† So if within our group we care about each other, and agree that it's best if we're all alive, happy, and healthy; actions that support that are moral, and actions against it are immoral.


@Morphy - I get your point, and respect it.† I do not believe in a god, so I don't believe that morality started when it was commanded that certain things shouldn't be done.† But I do believe that the end result is what's important.† However we get there, if people treat each other well and with respect, we all benefit.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Morphy
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Checkmate

Posts: 4840
Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #27 - Oct 4th, 2019 at 6:56pm
 
Actually there was no need to mention my personal beliefs come to think of it but in interest of full disclosure there it is.

I guess I am always fascinated by others beliefs so maybe that's why it came out. I love to see how people view the world. It makes life interesting. A friend of mine is a pretty hardcore atheist with quite an interesting background. We always have good conversations about these subjects.

One thing I like about Slinging.org is everyone seems able to have these conversations without it becoming so toxic they have to be shut down. At least I don't remember any threads like that. The shooting one is another good example. It takes a certain amount of faith in the people here to start a thread like that and I think so far it's panned out well.
Back to top
 

"The problem with democracy is no matter who you vote for the government still gets in."
 
IP Logged
 
perpetualstudent
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 1157
Gender: male
Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #28 - Oct 4th, 2019 at 7:53pm
 
If we grant the premise that we've evolved, in general, a moral sensibility it is only because it is beneficial evolutionarily. You run into the issue that you've changed the focus of morality. Morality has traditionally been seen as "what is right to do, regardless of who benefits", while Evolution cares only and ever about whether it produces more offspring. As soon as you get that, and add that to the point that logic/intellect also evolved only to produce more offspring, you lose the weight of morality. It is no longer "right" it is "beneficial at the moment" all that matters is having babies. You can fit a squirrely argument about balance of strategies in the population in here, but that's really just Nietzche's Ubermench by another name.

Rather than give you an out from the historical arguments over the nature of morality, you're right back in utilitarian arguments and the free rider problem, and perhaps the most important issue is that we have the incontrovertible fact that many people want to do things we feel are morally wrong, which shows us that a simple "do what you feel is good" is inadequate.

Back to top
 

"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Funditor
****
Offline



Posts: 901
Texas
Re: Is morality a social construct?
Reply #29 - Oct 4th, 2019 at 9:13pm
 
@Morphy, you mentioned that your beliefs are based in Christianity... itís probably worth mentioning the Christian view.  In Genesis, the knowledge of good and evil was not inherent in humans until Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Implicitly this means that the definition of good and evil is not determined by man but by God. When man tries to decide what is good on his own, he is effectively trying to play God.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Masiakasaurus, Rat Man, Curious Aardvark, David Morningstar, Chris, Bill Skinner, Mauro Fiorentini) - (Moderator Group: Forum Moderator)