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Shooting (Read 1486 times)
perpetualstudent
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Re: Shooting
Reply #30 - Sep 21st, 2019 at 9:02am
 
I think the heart of the disagreement here and the reason there's a right left split on this issue is the simple difference
"we have to try something" vs "we ought use government force sparingly"

We all agree we don't want mass shootings (or mass killings generally). And the well meaning people on the left just want to try anything to get it to stop, because to them there's no appreciable downside. Meanwhile on the right, because they are wary of governmental overreach (NYC, CA, Britain, Australia being unmissable examples) want to pull everything apart and only approve an increase if it would directly help. Then we immediately get to the second order effects. If you don't approve this thing which probably won't help you WANT mass shootings. If you just want to do anything you WANT to take all firearms. It takes real effort to continue the discourse.

I keep get driven back though to the attacks in Europe the last few years where they proved irrefutably that you don't need firearms for mass killing, and that mass killers can get their hands on firearms. It's not the tools. It's the person behind the tool. And the ideology behind the person. And we seem utterly committed to ignoring that.
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Morphy
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Re: Shooting
Reply #31 - Sep 21st, 2019 at 9:42am
 
This problem will never be fixed until the true root of the problem is addressed. Our culture is sick. There was a time not too long ago when kids would bring their shotguns to school and keep them in the locker so they could shoot after school with the coaches. I know people that did this. Also during this time school shootings we're almost unheard of.

What changed? Find out what changed and you will find out what needs to be fixed.

† †
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« Last Edit: Sep 22nd, 2019 at 1:45pm by Rat Man »  

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Re: Shooting
Reply #32 - Sep 21st, 2019 at 9:51pm
 
@perpetualstudent: itís not about limited government versus ďdo somethingĒ.  Itís really about doing the right thing... or at least choosing the best of the available bad choices. If the government had a solution and could prove that it would save lives, I would get on board. Iím not so callous or selfish as to believe that my enjoyment of firearms is worth the life of someone elseís child. Unfortunately, making guns illegal outside of heavily restricted sporting contexts (i.e. Germany, Australia, or the UK) doesnít actually reduce violent crime. In fact, when violence occurs with knives and clubs, the advantage goes to the strongest person. In a gunfight, an 80 year old at least stands a chance against a younger and stronger thug. Show me a legal framework that solves the problems better than a self-sufficient, responsible armed populace, and I am willing to consider it. But I havenít heard any suggestions or seen evidence that other approaches work better than the 2nd Amendment yet.
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Re: Shooting
Reply #33 - Sep 22nd, 2019 at 8:09am
 
I like Pelletguns, Slings and Bows. Very few restrictions on those here. Never liked firearms, too loud.
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Rat Man
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Re: Shooting
Reply #34 - Sep 22nd, 2019 at 1:46pm
 
Morphy wrote on Sep 21st, 2019 at 9:42am:
This problem will never be fixed until the true root of the problem is addressed. Our culture is sick. There was a time not too long ago when kids would bring their shotguns to school and keep them in the locker so they could shoot after school with the coaches. I know people that did this. Also during this time school shootings we're almost unheard of.

What changed? Find out what changed and you will find out what needs to be fixed.

† †


    It was a very different world when some of us grew up.  Kids respected the teachers.  If you got hit by a teacher you wouldn't dare complain to your parents or they'd hit you worse.  All schools were completely wide open to the public.  There was absolutely no such things as guards in schools right through my college years.  Things are different, parents are different, people are different, and I don't think there is any going back.
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Rat Man
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Re: Shooting
Reply #35 - Sep 22nd, 2019 at 1:52pm
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Sep 21st, 2019 at 2:47am:
Rat Man wrote on Sep 20th, 2019 at 4:55pm:
† So the solution is???† If background checks are useless this† seems to leave us with only two options.† To continue to live with mass shootings as a regular part of our culture or to ban guns completely.† Neither is a desirable option.


I agree. Neither one is a reasonable option. My vote is to enforce the current laws, fix interoperability among databases so background checks can work better, improve mental health support systems, and as a last resort... allow trustworthy people to shoot back. The vast majority of mass shootings happen in places where carrying a gun is illegal. That just means that the only people who are armed are the criminals. The mass shooter will always have the element of surprise, but effective armed citizens can help minimize the damage. Strangely, most mass shooters flip a switch and give up as soon as they see some resistance. Itís not uncommon for the perp to either surrender or commit suicide when the police arrive, but by then the damage is done.†


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lDb0Dn8OXE
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Morphy
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Re: Shooting
Reply #36 - Sep 22nd, 2019 at 6:36pm
 
Rat Man wrote on Sep 22nd, 2019 at 1:46pm:
Morphy wrote on Sep 21st, 2019 at 9:42am:
This problem will never be fixed until the true root of the problem is addressed. Our culture is sick. There was a time not too long ago when kids would bring their shotguns to school and keep them in the locker so they could shoot after school with the coaches. I know people that did this. Also during this time school shootings we're almost unheard of.

What changed? Find out what changed and you will find out what needs to be fixed.

† †


† † It was a very different world when some of us grew up.† Kids respected the teachers.† If you got hit by a teacher you wouldn't dare complain to your parents or they'd hit you worse.† All schools were completely wide open to the public.† There was absolutely no such things as guards in schools right through my college years.† Things are different, parents are different, people are different, and I don't think there is any going back.


True. Things are different. That is the usual response I've gotten to my above point. I'm not sure that makes my point any less valid though.

Assuming that culture/society can only go in one direction: moral to immoral, we are essentially accepting the eventual death of that culture one way or the other. An immoral society cannot stay free. It will eventually collapse from the weight of it's own corruption. We are seeing that collapse right now in slow motion. Well, slow to us, but in the grand scheme of things as far as previous history is concerned it's all happening in the blink of an eye due to the sped up nature of our more interconnected world.

Morality is the means by which the individual self-regulates one's own actions in the interest of long term prosperity and freedom both for that person and for their society as a whole. Without it, the individual seeks government to implement penalties or regulations against those whom they feel have wronged them, giving the government more power.

Eventually, usually fairly early on, the government realizes that the creation or fomentation of social unrest is a means to greater power and seeks ways to divide the people to that end.

My conclusion by the way isn't that you are wrong. I personally believe we are the proverbial train running towards the unfinished bridge. We will not change, not because it's not possible but because it's more convenient to kick the can down the road then it is to make hard decisions while things are still relatively peaceful and prosperous.†

When critical mass is eventually reached it will be too late. People will look at the events as if they are all unrelated, spontaneous acts of misfortune. It won't be. This is a cycle that happens over and over in history. We won't change and most likely our kids will suffer because of it.


So, there's my spiel. That's my soapbox, I'll get off it now. By the way, I'm not a nihilist on this subject, closer to a fatalist. I'm not worried at all about the future, but I do enjoy philosophy and history. It's hard not to see the signs and mention them when the subject presents itself.

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woodssj
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Re: Shooting
Reply #37 - Sep 23rd, 2019 at 9:58am
 
Speaking also from the US as an avid shooter, I still don't see why we haven't used the National Firearms Act to any effect in the recent environment.

Adding so-called assault weapons (I understand the technical difficulties with that, and the need for a workable definition, but bear with the common usage for a moment) to the NFA as a category while leaving previous laws in place essentially as-is would be a massive help for ease-of-acquisition problems, while not adding anything but some inconvenience for bona-fide purchasers.

Yes, there'd be waiting for the ATF checks to go through...

Yes, there's already millions of the things around.

Simply add the requirement for any future sales including private-sellers, grandfather existing rifles until they are sold, with an ability for Federal Firearms Liscencees to buy them into their dealer stock from private persons to allow for people to get them out of their hands easily if the need arose (need cash/estate sales/etc).

Then, nobody who has one is going to want to part with it lightly, thus removing the likelihood of black-market sales. Nobody who wants to commit a mass shooting can just get one same-day. They're still available for people who are just that interested and invested in having them for lawful purposes.

Within ten years, the illegal supplies will have dried up almost entirely, spare parts will be less available for keeping illegal arms in operation, and eventually the threat will diminish.

I see this as still a significant compromise, but I think one that could be met by the majority of gun owners and gun-control fans. It addresses both sides as much as possible while leaving the vast majority of firearms alone and putting a check on the mass-shooting supply issue, while adding no new laws, just implementing a new rule or three that is already familiar.

Of course, there's a hell of a lot more to do with Guns in the US Legal system (MA/NJ/CA/NY, I'm glaring at you in particular...) to make things a little more uniform in carry requirements, state-to-state reciprocity, and a lot else. But this seems like a decent approach to the current crisis which could calm things down a wee bit and give both political and rhetorical space to manouver in that wider debate.

Just my thoughts.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Shooting
Reply #38 - Sep 23rd, 2019 at 3:30pm
 
Where is the difference between "compromise" and a "ratchet"? CA and NY prove that a "as understood" ban will not be enough for them and they will continually demand more. What benefit for the other side? That we can then discuss even more regulation and tax and bans? I'm not buying your case here....
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Re: Shooting
Reply #39 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 10:20am
 
Think of it as putting a house on jacks while you fix a foundation:

If you just leave it there, you're in a bad position, and the whole thing will likely collapse over time.

If you fix the foundation and put it back down, you're going to be in good shape for another century or three, depending on the foundation.

I'm assuming there'd be room and political will to actually come up with a simplified, more uniforms and more Just set of firearm Laws in the US after the NFA modification, and preferably something that puts limits on state-line problems we currently have, of course.

With the current US political climate, that may be asking a bit too much. It's really hard to get things done during an Imperial Collapse.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Shooting
Reply #40 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 12:37pm
 
I know this is a contentious issue and I don't want to come across as rude to anyone. We should all be able to discuss this dispassionately but I find that that rarely happens.

I'm ok with pulling an engine or jacking up a house so the car or house will last. But in exchange for banning millions of firearms (even if just scary weapons are banned it'd be millions, if we followed Australia's example it would include pump and lever action rifles and shotguns and that'd be millions more and somewhere in between would be only allowing semiauto in .22s but no matter what we're talking millions). That's just putting in on the jacks in your metaphor.

Then come compromises where, presumably, the gun rights side will give up even more in exchange for perhaps some sort of concealed carry license that could cross state lines and buy and sell across state lines. Stuff that the gun control side will fight tooth and nail to keep from happening.

I still can't see how this is "shoring up a foundation". Especially when the assault weapon bans are demonstrably incapable of stopping mass killings. And again, I don't find my family being run down while Christmas shopping to be a preferable situation.
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Re: Shooting
Reply #41 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 5:28pm
 
Well, and there's the real issue: With a lack of widespread buy-in on one side and next to no technical knowledge on the other, it gets really hard to get anything done.

That's also why you'd have to Grandfather those ARs and other "Scary Type" weapons already in private hands, and not confiscate those, which would add a tiny bit of padding, as I mentioned, thus only effecting further new sales.

But again, this is all assuming a dispassionate, rational, technically-knowledgeable, and compromise-minded public and power structure in which to make these decisions.

That clearly doesn't exist in the US now, nor  likely will in the near-or-mid-term future.

We are likely stuck with our current situation for another two to three generations.
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Re: Shooting
Reply #42 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 8:22pm
 
Grandfather the scary ones??? Iím sorry.† It is with the utmost dispassion that I must say that this is a technically ill-informed suggestion too. California has tried to ban guns based on ďscaryĒ features for decades and thatís why innovative people created bullet buttons and thumbhole stocks that satisfied the laws without affecting the technical functions of the guns. Shockingly, violent crime did not decrease in California when pistol grips and bayonet lugs and 30-round magazines were declared too scary for civilian ownership.

Show me data that suggests that pistol grips and hand guards cause more crimes, and then I will consider supporting a ban on  them. Until then it just sounds like a red herring at best.
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Re: Shooting
Reply #43 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 9:40pm
 
Yup. Exactly the same thing has happened to Short Barreled Rifles, and a whole slew of other things that have now been circumvented, which is why I argue a basically complete re-write is in order. Some of those systems are very old, though, like the stripper-clip type system attached to AR ejection ports. They just adapted an idea from the 1880s to the modern weapon.

The reason for the grandfathering is to clear space for debate and avoid the "Gun Confiscation is all you're after!" red herring. That way, it only applies to new purchases, and not those still existing, but that current supply will dwindle over time from use and breakage and police captures if used illegally.

Regardless, the whole thing still needs people to meet at some common ground with good faith. I don't see that happening any time in the future of the current USA.
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Re: Shooting
Reply #44 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 8:52am
 
Lol. It's hard to call it a red herring with old Beto coming right out and admitting he's going to confiscate guns if he gets elected.

There was a time when you could call it a red herring. In the present day that ship has sailed.
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