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Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid (Read 562 times)
Sarosh
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #15 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 3:46am
 
sling:  uses a large chain of the biggest muscles to the smallest

bow: mainly upper back muscles put the work all other muscles stabilise.

one hand pulls the other pushes so to have 700N pull you need a 700N push it's not split between the two arms like 350N+350N. I can pull 35kg w/ right hand and push 35(and more) with my left arm but I cannot pull a 700N bow (160# 73kg) just a 77# 35kg one
so it seems as 2 arms work but it's more like one puts in the work.
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JudoP
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #16 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 4:52am
 
Sarosh wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 3:46am:
sling:  uses a large chain of the biggest muscles to the smallest

bow: mainly upper back muscles put the work all other muscles stabilise.

one hand pulls the other pushes so to have 700N pull you need a 700N push it's not split between the two arms like 350N+350N. I can pull 35kg w/ right hand and push 35(and more) with my left arm but I cannot pull a 700N bow (160# 73kg) just a 77# 35kg one
so it seems as 2 arms work but it's more like one puts in the work.


Yes I know- the force on both arms is equal/opposite and equals the draw weight. I'm not saying that it is definitely easier because it's two hands, I really am just speculating about 2h actions vs 1h actions and the kind of force output they tend to generate. It may be that drawing a bow is more comparable to 1h action as one arm braces against and the other does the work, but maybe the use of two hands allows very good recruitment of large back muscles which is hard to do one handed. At any rate I'd be surprised if the tension in a sling at any point reaches anything like 700N, hence this high force/low stroke vs lower force/high stroke comparison.

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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #17 - Sep 1st, 2019 at 4:24am
 
Balearic slinger vs plate armor= Battle of Najera?
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #18 - Sep 1st, 2019 at 12:34pm
 
The conquests of South America would be interesting to look at too.
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #19 - Sep 1st, 2019 at 4:13pm
 
It would be great to get a video of someone like Louis Pons Livermore slinging at a human analog wearing legitimate plate armor. Both straight on shots and clout type shooting where it's falling from the sky. I imagine it would do some serious damage to the human spine.
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #20 - Sep 3rd, 2019 at 10:04am
 
@Morphy, there is actually quite a bit of information about damage to the spine already out there... just not specific to slinging. There’s a lot of science and data behind hard hat and helmet designs, and the performance standards and regulations for safety helmets will be very informative about what a rock or glande could do.  I’ll see if I can drum up some links in the next few days.
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #21 - Sep 3rd, 2019 at 4:58pm
 
Much appreciated.

What I would love to see is what kind of damage a straight on shot to a head wearing a plate helm would do. If you can find anything out there about that you will be a legend.  Grin
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #22 - Sep 3rd, 2019 at 9:28pm
 
Links to come when I have a chance to look into proper references... I’m definitely not an expert, but here’s my novice summary:
The literature tends to separate damage into penetration injuries (punctures) and blunt force trauma.  Blunt force trauma with an uncompromised helmet can be simplified as an acceleration of the neck, because the helmet prevents surface damage and localized crushing. Neck acceleration is a function of the speed, direction, and mass of the object that impacts the head, as well as whether the impact is more elastic or inelastic (purely inelastic would be the maximum transfer of kinetic energy to the head).
The military also adds an in-between category called (and this is the technical term) “chunky penetration” that’s somewhere between blunt force trauma and punctures. That’s probably how you would categorize a rock or glande impact without a helmet.
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #23 - Sep 3rd, 2019 at 9:44pm
 
Here’s a good start for modeling “chunky penetration”:
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a063525.pdf
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #24 - Sep 3rd, 2019 at 9:56pm
 
... there’s also possible traumatic brain injury from sudden acceleration. I forgot to mention that mode of injury.

A lot of these articles aren’t free, but here’s a good starting list of academic studies that are relevant to slings vs helmets on the battlefield:

https://tinyurl.com/y2mdxbun
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #25 - Sep 3rd, 2019 at 10:19pm
 
Here’s a free one that analyzes the effect of extra mass on the head and it’s relevances in acceleration-induced neck injuries:

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a446621.pdf

All you need now is to compare the mass of a kevlar helmet plus night vision goggles to the mass of a plate helmet, and you might have a reasonable analog from modern data sources.  Next, you have to estimate the acceleration from a glande impact to determine whether a neck injury or brain trauma would be realistic. One final factor that might also matter is battle fatigue. If a warrior’s neck grows tired from wearing a plate helmet, then they may be more susceptible to injury over time.
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #26 - Sep 4th, 2019 at 6:39am
 
Sling ammo versus armour is a tricky one.

Distance - over 100 metres - impacts would generally be with small lead glandes, whils short range (100 metres and under) would generally be with larger spherical rocks.

If you look at the uk hillforts, pretty much all the ammo caches (over 10,000 sling stones found at danebury alone) are round and on the heavier side.

It's doubtful you would ever get armour penetration from a lead glande. The bow tests show clearly that even hard steel arrow heads don't penetrate good armour.

So you are looking more at incidental impacts: legs, arms, face&neck (would be very rare).
Which is where the larger spherical ammo would come into play.
A broken ankle on a battlefield, would probably prove to be  just as fatal as a broken neck.

You would probably not get the internal injuries that an unarmoured person would suffer, as the armour would not transfer energy efficiently to the internal organs.

The widespread availability of armour, probably contributed as much to the death of the sling as a serious batlefield weapon, as the rise of mass produced bows and arrows.
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #27 - Sep 4th, 2019 at 7:21am
 
Personally, I'd feel that concerning the transferal of 'Blunt' force into a target, slingstones ought to beat arrows in that case.

As to whether it could kill a knight through a strike to his chest, I would likely say 'No', because the globose shape practically ensures that you have a several centimetre gap between the armour and the person. That said, you'd probably see much larger dents then you see from the arrows in the video, especially if someone like Luis was throwing these stones.

The Spanish mention that their iron cuirasses were being heavily dented by fist-sized slingstones thrown by Aztec slingers, and I can believe that.

However I bet you that a Jupon, such as in the video, would probably be a very, very great defensive garment against slingstones.

Now, a fist-sized slingstone against limb protection or the helmet... I'm not exactly sure. What I can say, however, is that slingstones will probably ruin a knights day, given that slingstones aren't as reliant on impact angles to glance off. Limb armour is well shaped and quite compact so arrows would have a high likelihood of glancing... but a fist-sized slingstone... I'd say probably not, and given that limb armour tends to be close to the body, an impact there would probably be pretty devastating.
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Sarosh
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #28 - Sep 4th, 2019 at 9:01am
 
@
Curious Aardvark
if the slinger is within the range they are shooting the bows (25m) then I believe the archer can shoot the face and the slinger can shoot the neck face area, the enemies' head & necks would be like a horizontal target at 25m.
the momentum of the arrow is around 4- 4.5 kg*m/s the momentum of a hurled heavy stone would be double that, similar to a shotgun recoil, it would be at least annoying. "concentrated fire" would be devastating.
I wouldn't expect penetration from a lead glande , but you never know, light lead projectiles can reach high velocities and it would be nice to see if and how they melt on impact.
at longer ranges i think the arrow will be useless but heavy stones not.

death by blunt force , death of Pyrrhus of Epirus :
Quote:
During the confused battle in the narrow city streets, Pyrrhus was trapped. While he was fighting an Argive soldier, the soldier's old mother, who was watching from a rooftop, threw a tile which knocked him from his horse and broke part of his spine, paralyzing him. Whether he was alive or not after the blow is unknown, but his death was assured when a Macedonian soldier named Zopyrus, though frightened by the look on the face of the unconscious king, hesitantly and ineptly beheaded his motionless body.

death by blunt force aren't that heroic they sound like a tragic stupid joke. death by arrow doesn't sound like a joke .
I can't find a description of the death of Lucius Aurunculeius Cotta if you can find one post here.
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #29 - Sep 4th, 2019 at 12:56pm
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Sep 3rd, 2019 at 9:44pm:
Here’s a good start for modeling “chunky penetration”:
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a063525.pdf


Good stuff. Chunky penetration huh? And.... I'm just going to stop while I'm ahead with that one.

I don't have any doubt it would kill the guy it does surprise me that you found so much relevant material so quickly. Almost like human beings favorite pastime is finding new ways to kill each other. Definitely a large rock against a plate helm would kill the guy. At least until we have definitive proof that's what I'm sticking with.

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