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Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid (Read 563 times)
Sarosh
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Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Aug 29th, 2019 at 3:48pm
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBxdTkddHaE
too much awesomeness in one video!
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Kick
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #1 - Aug 29th, 2019 at 5:30pm
 
Really fascinating and some proper science being done. I think it makes the good point that the armour was doing it's job, protecting the user from the weapons of the time. They wouldn't have used them if arrows went through them like a hot knife through butter so it shouldn't really be surprising they're tough as hell Cheesy
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JudoP
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #2 - Aug 29th, 2019 at 8:01pm
 
It's a kind of paradoxical thing, that even beastly longbows won't get through plate yet the longbow was still extremely good in it's day.

I lean towards it being a volume thing. To take Agincourt as an example- if you have 5,000 or so archers and each can loose 12 arrows per minute, then you have 60,000 arrows per minute flying into the armoured mass. The French here had about 10,000 knights, so you're looking at 6 arrows per knight for every minute of the battle. The french were very densely packed so it's safe to assume most of these would have hit a target. Imagine taking one of those 160lb longbow shots every 10 seconds whilst you are trying to trudge through deep mud. That's just an average too, I imagine the front row would be getting peppered at a far faster rate. The blunt trauma and exhaustion of the physical battering would be bad enough, and after 10 or so arrows the chances are one has probably found a gap or weakpoint and put you out of action.
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Sarosh
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #3 - Aug 30th, 2019 at 3:59am
 
I watch that archer with awe , lifetime of practice and pulling 160#.
80g (2.8oz) arrows at 55ms (180fps) at 10m  123J (91ftlbs), (they should have done the same measurements @ "muzzle" so we can compare with future results more easily)
but if we compare it with the sling, the sling is probably superior. A hurled stone can have more kinetic energy and momentum and since the arrow doesn't penetrate then it can't do more damage than a stone.
One day they should compare all the projectile weapons against the plate armor and not only the penetrative results but also the blunt damage results which is what really counts unless you got ballista or maybe arballest , the sling seems to be the queen of blunt trauma and might win not with high velocity but just high mass.
the bow would have the highest shot per minute but I don't know how important it is because archers might restrain from raining expensive arrows when stones and lead are not .
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JudoP
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #4 - Aug 30th, 2019 at 4:55am
 
I imagine sling can achieve higher KE because the bow uses a fair bit of energy in snapping the limbs back, which must have a fair bit higher mass than the projectile. With a sling the only loss is in air resistance and swinging the weight of the sling.

Also just being a vastly different motion might be better for getting KE into it. The bow is a growing force applied over 30 inches or so- the sling only uses one hand but a much longer stroke, and potentially a more consistent rather than growing force, in such a way that the area under the curve (so to speak) is greater.
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #5 - Aug 30th, 2019 at 5:15am
 
JudoP wrote on Aug 29th, 2019 at 8:01pm:
It's a kind of paradoxical thing, that even beastly longbows won't get through plate yet the longbow was still extremely good in it's day.

I lean towards it being a volume thing. To take Agincourt as an example- if you have 5,000 or so archers and each can loose 12 arrows per minute, then you have 60,000 arrows per minute flying into the armoured mass. The French here had about 10,000 knights, so you're looking at 6 arrows per knight for every minute of the battle. The french were very densely packed so it's safe to assume most of these would have hit a target. Imagine taking one of those 160lb longbow shots every 10 seconds whilst you are trying to trudge through deep mud. That's just an average too, I imagine the front row would be getting peppered at a far faster rate. The blunt trauma and exhaustion of the physical battering would be bad enough, and after 10 or so arrows the chances are one has probably found a gap or weakpoint and put you out of action.


Just all those bits of wood and arrow heads flying around. If there's even a tiny gap in your helmet you could end up spitting splinters. War really is, and has always been, hell.
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #6 - Aug 30th, 2019 at 5:30am
 
Bring Luis on the show and have him sling at it
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Sarosh
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #7 - Aug 30th, 2019 at 6:09am
 
@
Jauke
that's what I was thinking
@
Kick
depending on the circumstances stones can rebound hitting you from below(in this case mud doesn't allow for that to happen), break and ricochet with more energy than an arrow does. On impact the arrow kinetic energy recoils back to the arrow and the shaft vibrates(too much of it) , breaks and heats up at the point. Energy can't be recoiled back to the stone in the same way only as sound and heat .Stone would mostly be redirected transfering energy to initial target and then less energy to the next , wood chips and randomly flying shafts dont even compare to that.

because there are a lot of variables it would be nice to see an experiment on it.

JudoP wrote on Aug 30th, 2019 at 4:55am:
the sling only uses one hand but a much longer stroke

The sling doesn't only use the arm but the whole body legs torso and arms
but there is no reason to compare how the projectiles are accelerated if the "muzzle" energy , momentum and ballistics of the projectile is what matters.
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #8 - Aug 30th, 2019 at 7:36am
 
Jauke wrote on Aug 30th, 2019 at 5:30am:
Bring Luis on the show and have him sling at it


I have the feeling that Tod would be reluctant to pay for the airfare.

But in a pinch I'm sure CuriousAardvark or any other English, Scottish or Welsh slinger would be happy to perform!

Actually, I might go ask Todd if he would be interested in doing 'anachronistic' weapons tests with his crossbows too.
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #9 - Aug 30th, 2019 at 10:33am
 
I'd be up for that - I throw harder than anyone else in the uk, that I know of.

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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #10 - Aug 30th, 2019 at 12:23pm
 
I imagine a heavy sling stone hitting someone straight in the face would have a good chance of killing or paralysis. Head, neck and legs would all be brutal places to be hit with a large sling stone even with plate on. Especially if it's multiple stones hitting you a minute.
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JudoP
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #11 - Aug 30th, 2019 at 4:16pm
 
Sarosh wrote on Aug 30th, 2019 at 6:09am:
JudoP wrote on Aug 30th, 2019 at 4:55am:
the sling only uses one hand but a much longer stroke

The sling doesn't only use the arm but the whole body legs torso and arms
but there is no reason to compare how the projectiles are accelerated if the "muzzle" energy , momentum and ballistics of the projectile is what matters.


I'm speculating on how the muzzle energy is produced, not on possible impact- since energy into the system is integral force over displacement, the stroke length and force applied might offer some answers.

Sure both actions use a lot of the body, but I'm guessing 2h actions have the potential to produce more. I could hit 2h with a hammer much harder than with one hand etc.
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #12 - Aug 30th, 2019 at 5:36pm
 
JudoP wrote on Aug 30th, 2019 at 4:16pm:
Sure both actions use a lot of the body, but I'm guessing 2h actions have the potential to produce more. I could hit 2h with a hammer much harder than with one hand etc.

try to hit w/ 1 hand and then try to hit w/ 2 hands without the use of the legs or abs.

It's not as simple as that. in archery one arm applies force in a concentric and isometric contraction and the other mostly concentric while slinging or throwing (the right way) the muscles of one leg does concentric contraction , the torso does eccentric then concentric then follows the arm which does eccentric then concentric . stored energy in the non throwing arm is also used to rotate the other side.

the eccentric contraction of a muscle produces more force than the concentric, thus I find it difficult to make a comparison like that.

the F-d curves are as you said but you can't make an F-d curve in slinging the same way you do to a bow.
I don't know which one is more efficient (output/input) slinging might have lower efficiency but have input high enough that the output surpasses that of the bow making it more effective...
and don't forget in archery you first put energy in the bow and then the bow makes it kinetic. it's chemical->dynamic->kinetic
slinging is chemical->kinetic one less energy transfer.
but again it's more complicated than that .

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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #13 - Aug 30th, 2019 at 7:05pm
 
I would also like to see what sort of blunt-force trauma arrows (and other projectiles) would inflict through armor. What would be an effective way to measure the impact force on the ballistics gel? Would Shockwatch labels work, or would he need something more sophisticated?
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Re: Warbow penetration tests Tod's workshop w/ Joe Gibbs vid
Reply #14 - Aug 30th, 2019 at 8:15pm
 
Sarosh wrote on Aug 30th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
JudoP wrote on Aug 30th, 2019 at 4:16pm:
Sure both actions use a lot of the body, but I'm guessing 2h actions have the potential to produce more. I could hit 2h with a hammer much harder than with one hand etc.

try to hit w/ 1 hand and then try to hit w/ 2 hands without the use of the legs or abs.

It's not as simple as that. in archery one arm applies force in a concentric and isometric contraction and the other mostly concentric while slinging or throwing (the right way) the muscles of one leg does concentric contraction , the torso does eccentric then concentric then follows the arm which does eccentric then concentric . stored energy in the non throwing arm is also used to rotate the other side.

the eccentric contraction of a muscle produces more force than the concentric, thus I find it difficult to make a comparison like that.

the F-d curves are as you said but you can't make an F-d curve in slinging the same way you do to a bow.
I don't know which one is more efficient (output/input) slinging might have lower efficiency but have input high enough that the output surpasses that of the bow making it more effective...
and don't forget in archery you first put energy in the bow and then the bow makes it kinetic. it's chemical->dynamic->kinetic
slinging is chemical->kinetic one less energy transfer.
but again it's more complicated than that .



I don't doubt it's complicated- like I said I'm speculating-broad strokes, not calculating. You could calculate a bow by just looking at draw weight integrated over draw length and forget all about muscles, a sling is probably very difficult, but the principle is the same. Longer stroke = more energy in, likewise more force = more energy in, minus losses.

I don't think not using abs or legs for 2h vs 1h really proves much. Maybe just that using two hands is optimal for recruiting the maximal amount of force from the rest of the body. If I wanted to output maximal force from any action- most of the time I'd be doing something using two hands (or two legs), whether that be deadlift, bench, hitting something with a sledge hammer etc. All the highest force actions I can think of use two hands (if upper body related) and attempting these one handed is not effective.
Now clearly other actions which don't maximise force are sometimes better suited to 1h, eg throwing of medium-light objects. Here 2h is clearly not suited to the action... but when higher force is required (for heavier objects)- people start to throw with both hands.
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