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Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style? (Read 4003 times)
Donnerschlag
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Re: Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style?
Reply #45 - Aug 1st, 2020 at 1:55am
 
(A bit of a necrothread, but I see this theme popping up every now and then so I'll weigh in anyways.)

I would argue the opposite: descriptive terms are a much more logical way to go than terms that pin an arbitrary culture's name and identity to various universal throwing methods in an attempt to sound more exotic. :p

Imagine you go to Tibet and have the chance to witness some Tibetan shepherds slinging, and a couple of them liked to sling Helicopter, but preferred to use a single-rotation before throwing. Would you tell them that one of the ways that they've been slinging for generations should be called "Byzantine Style" just because in the infancy of Slinging.org's "Project Goliath", we saw a coin from Byzantium that simply depicted a slinger with a loaded sling at rest beside him, completely devoid of any context for the actual throw itself? I'm sure that wouldn't go over well.  Wink

The same thing would probably happen with the helicopter users if we switch from a descriptive term to some overtly Euro-centric Greco-Roman based term for that throw too.

The only reason we had most of these "cultural" names was the early Project Goliath days: back when information on the topic was still incredibly sparse, naming the one or two examples we found beyond basic "Underhand", "Overhand", or "Helicopter" off of whatever historic evidence we could scrape together. But now we have enough information compiled to recognize the patterns repeating everywhere, and that certain styles we thought were unique in the early days are in reality, actually rather common.

It's like with martial arts: there's only so many ways to move the body effectively. Patterns will naturally repeat as everyone independently comes to the same conclusions of what works, and what doesn't.

Descriptive terms like Helicopter/Overhand/Underhand/Sidearm are much better because those can be translated into any language and applied without weird cultural baggage brought along with it.
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« Last Edit: Aug 6th, 2020 at 6:26pm by Donnerschlag »  

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Donnerschlag
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Re: Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style?
Reply #46 - Aug 1st, 2020 at 2:03am
 
I mean, it's one thing to give the older and more established terms like "Greek sidearm" a pass, but it's a different matter altogether to continue arbitrary cultural names into the throw-naming lexicon despite knowing better.  Tongue
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style?
Reply #47 - Aug 1st, 2020 at 9:10am
 
I'm with you Donnerschlag.  There are no clear dividing lines for styles on a continuum of motions and angles... not to mention the fact that some styles also describe motions that happen before the actual throw!  Functional names make the most sense, and even then, it would be easy to go overboard.

If we insist on classification of every little difference with current naming conventions, then we will have to create an entire lexicon of hybrid and intermediate styles too.  It starts innocently enough with things like a "helicopter sidearm", but the next thing you know, slingers will start showing up at hospitals with broken limbs and missing teeth, because they just had to try out the hot new Greek-Apache-underhand-helicopter-shark style!

... and just so that you'll never be able to get it out of your head for the rest of your life:

Greek Apache underhand helicopter shark doot doo doot doot doo doo!

(You're welcome  Grin )
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Captain_Twine
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Re: Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style?
Reply #48 - Aug 1st, 2020 at 6:36pm
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 5:11pm:
Some people like to say that the first two professions in history were the prostitute and the priest, but the first job was actually the taxonomist. The first man, Adam, spent his days naming the animals, and humans have been fascinated by categorizing and classifying everything ever since then.

Here’s my $.02:
1. What matters most is the trajectory, the projectile stability, the speed, and the spin at the release. How many times you whirl the rock around your head may matter when it comes to proprioception and muscle memory, but in the end, you either hit the target or you miss, and that has more to do with practice than which particular style you choose. I don’t care what label you put on it. If you can hit the target, you’re doing it right even if you don’t know what to call the style or your style isn’t “pure”.

2. You could go crazy with names to classify styles, or you could just define a set of parameters that describes the throw, such as the angle of the swing and release relative to the direction of the throw. For example, imagine that you are punching at the center of a clock when you throw... the sling would pass through 12:00 with Apache or overhand, and about 1:30 or 2:00 with a figure-8 (unless you’re left handed).  Balearic might release at about 4:30, and so on.   Then we can all argue about what clock position is “correct” for the release, but it’ll be clear to everyone what the form looks like at the release, no matter how you swing it before that.


It's true - To classify things is human nature (Some would even say that it's the basis of existence.) However, because of that, classification is, and always has been, subject to human purposes - For instance, what is a tomato? To the botanist, it is a fruit, since it bears seeds after its kind; to the chef, a vegetable, due to its lack of sweetness, and to the La Tomatina reveler in Buñol, it's a projectile.
(On a side note, I'd love to see how a group of slingers would do in a tomato-throwing festival!)


So, if we're gonna come up with new naming conventions for slinging styles, it's important to keep in mind what exactly we're naming them for - The historian might classify a style as being "Greek" or "Byzantine" or "Balearic" for on their presumed places of origin, while the physicist might classify someone's style as "overhand" or "underhand" or "sidearm" based on the particular style's release point.
Another side note - Why should we assume that, for instance, all ancient Greeks exclusively used the Greek style?


So, which are we? Most of us, I'm assuming, are either one or neither - Most of our style names are an ambiguous mix of both.

I think that a solid naming convention should account for all different parts of a slinging style, including the windup and maybe even the number of spins, so that anybody with a working knowledge of the terms would be able to hear the name of the style, and, never having seen it before, be able to "get the gist" of what the style might look like - The syntax could be simple:
I.) A term describing either the starting position and/or the windup.
II.) The number of "spins" (as far as it is applicable.)
III.) The release point of the style.

A helicopter style with two "spins" would be called an "overhead double-spin sidearm" to describe (A) the position, (B) the number of spins, and (C) the release point. The Greek style could be called an "overhead zero-spin overhand", while styles like Underhand and Overhand could be clarified depending on the particular nuance a particular slinger puts on it - For example, "side-body double-spin underhand" or "figure-eight triple-spin overhand" respectively. If one part of a slinging style is not adequately described by any existing terms, others may be invented to describe them, including proper names if necessary - Turkey style, which seems to begin with the sling across the back could be called the "RS-crossback zero-spin overhand," or maybe the "Turkey zero-spin overhand." The only thing needing explanation would be what "RS-crossback" or "Turkey" means, information easily supplied by knowledgeable members.

Of course, this syntax would need some tweaking to be effective - But I think that it is sound in principle. Describe the throw itself, and give users of the syntax room to describe their styles efficiently and simply.
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Captain_Twine
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Re: Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style?
Reply #49 - Aug 1st, 2020 at 6:37pm
 
Oh my goodness - I started typing my response back when there was only one page of this thread. I got left in the dust real bad this time Grin
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Re: Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style?
Reply #50 - Aug 5th, 2020 at 1:42am
 
Well another name might be the David and Goliath
Considering most people associate the helicopter
Style with that mythical battle
Wich in my opinion cause a lot of the learning
Curve problems. Whenever I teach someone
I have undo that preconceived notion.
And teach then the underhand and overhand release
Infact I personally don't think the helicopter
Is even a throwing style. But a wind-up for extra long
Slings.
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Morphy
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Re: Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style?
Reply #51 - Aug 5th, 2020 at 6:33am
 
I have no problem with the general names that are already in use. We classify viruses often by where they appeared even though it tells us virtually nothing useful about the virus itself. Descriptive names give the throwing styles more of their own invidual flavor imo. I may be in the minority on this but that’s just how I feel.
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Re: Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style?
Reply #52 - Aug 5th, 2020 at 8:50am
 
The main classification system is quite simple.
Slingers like to over complicate things Smiley

It's based on the release point.
So an overarm/head throw is one where the missile is released ABOVE shoulder height.

Sidearm throw is where the missile is release between the hip and shoulder.

Underarm is where the missile is released below the hip.

Everything else is the windup and generally based on what it looks like.

Yopu pretty much can't get a byzentine sidearm. The byzantium throw is an over arm relase preceeded by a single helicoptor (over head) rotation.
It is actually very distinctive and effective.
But NOT an actual helicopter throw.
The actual dynamics and how it generates power are completely different Smiley

A helocopter throw is one where multiple rotations are made over youir head. That's it.
release can be a sidearm, vertical over head or horizontal overhead.

The simplest way to classify a throw is to append the word: 'variation' Smiley

To the three general classifications.

My general purpose throw is a fig8 windup to a vertical overhand release.

OR 'Overhand variation'.
Smiley
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Re: Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style?
Reply #53 - Aug 5th, 2020 at 11:40am
 
I don’t know CA. That may be too simplistic. If I’m throwing shark style and holding the release cord with my teeth, then my shoulder may drop below my waist during the helicopter windup even if my retention cord is above my head. Under these conditions your entire taxonomy goes out the window the moment I open my mouth.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Re: Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style?
Reply #54 - Aug 5th, 2020 at 7:48pm
 
Can we, as a group, settle the taxonomy of slinging styles and all contribute to the names. I’m also happy with most of the names we commonly use but it really is an ongoing subject. I think we need a easy explanation for the new guys/girls
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Re: Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style?
Reply #55 - Aug 5th, 2020 at 10:48pm
 
In all seriousness I think the names are fine too.  It doesn’t really matter what label you put on it.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Re: Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style?
Reply #56 - Aug 6th, 2020 at 7:19pm
 
I feel like some style names are more or less okay, but I definitely think that the arbitrary cultural names are a bit..., Well, arbitrary. They make things annoying, in my opinion. We can't even assume that, say, all Byzantine army slingers even used Byzantine style - I'd imagine that slinging was as variable then as it was now. It's possible that the really wide variability nowadays is from the convention of styles on the Internet.
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Donnerschlag
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Re: Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style?
Reply #57 - Aug 6th, 2020 at 10:08pm
 
Personally I feel like there's only four factors to identify any effective throw/style on:

1. The plane the sling rotates on. (i.e. horizontal, vertical, or diagonal.)
2. The pitching motion with their arm. (Overhand, sidearm, or underhand)
3. The number of rotations. (Single-rotation vs multiple rotations)

#1 and #2 seem to cover 90% of it, so I like to categorize based on these two, with a dash of #3 if someone needs that clarification.

Names like "helicopter", "vertical" or "Figure-8" do exactly this because they perfectly describe what they are doing. Names like "Commanche" style (which was literally just a figure-8) do not.

I'm with Morphy that what we currently have established is good enough as it is, and was not seriously suggesting we rework what we currently got.
I'm just saying that if we were to bother going out of our way and start renaming styles, it should be in a more systematic fashion describing the actual motion involved instead of that old convoluted and cringy tribal name direction IMO.  Tongue
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Re: Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style?
Reply #58 - Aug 6th, 2020 at 10:13pm
 
I like that criteria, I think that really takes care of a lot of the styles .
When the names are over complicated or too simple it can be hard to understand what’s going on.
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Donnerschlag
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I put the 'K' in "Kwality"!

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Re: Helicopter - Can We Rename This Style?
Reply #59 - Aug 6th, 2020 at 10:27pm
 
I mean, some of the tribal/cultural named throws are okay (even though the origin of the throw's name may be highly dubious) because they address a weirdly unique throw that would be too long-winded to explain otherwise: like "Greek" describing a single-rotation helicopter with a little kick-start at the beginning from the off-hand. It's become more a shorthand or slang for a complex and unique package.

I feel like this was just a very natural way to begin a throw and saw use with lots of different throws, and the exaggerated pose just looked cool when copy/pasted into hyper-stylized pottery and currency motifs. But I'll be damned if I have to type "single-rotation helicopter with a little kick-start at the beginning from the off-hand" every single time I need to mention such a popular throw, so "Greek style" it is. Tongue

The trick is finding that sweet spot in the middle that keep both the simple and the complex succinct and thus beginner-friendly.  Smiley
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