Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
arrow initial orientation (Read 1204 times)
Sarosh
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 326
arrow initial orientation
Aug 18th, 2018 at 10:16am
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnRX_Cqhwb8

watch from 9:13 to 9:45
why does this happen?
i think he gives an explanation before 9:13 but it isn't convincing
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Morphy
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Checkmate

Posts: 4591
Re: arrow initial orientation
Reply #1 - Aug 18th, 2018 at 11:10am
 
You are right to be skeptical. This is why you should never get your information from tv documentaries with so called experts.  Grin

All they proved is they don't know the most basic aspects of bow tuning. A long bow will shoot just as straight as a Yumi as long as it's arrows are tune correctly to the bow and the Archer who is shooting them. In this case the first thing I would do is add a heavier point to check for spine issues. (Spine too stiff). Also check release and brace height etc. Once tuned correctly it will shoot straighter than the archer hinself is capable of shooting.

As for the Mongolian draw vs the Mediterranean draw....  Just for fun check and see how many people have won a Gold medal in Olympic archery using a Mongolian vs Mediterranean release.

Hollywood likes to promote the myth of Asian weapon superiority but as with the Katana this is all just for story telling.

The truth is if all other things were equal any modern master traditional wood bowyer could make a longbow from a lumber yard board that would shoot as well or better than that expensive Yumi bow. I'm sure that guy shooting it would not want to hear it but facts are facts.
Back to top
 

Political correctness is based on the universally understood yet unspoken rule that you are not allowed to recognize patterns.
 
IP Logged
 
Sarosh
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 326
Re: arrow initial orientation
Reply #2 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 8:47am
 
ok ,i had to be sure I'm not missing anything. almost every english longbow slow motion shot I have seen has bad spine Angry

from the bowyer's bible: for the same draw weight and same draw length, recurve profile is always more efficient than longbow profile. yumi might be more efficient for this reason but on the other hand it seems too long and i still don't understand the reasons for such handle position. It was used by armies, I don't want to disregard it easily
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Morphy
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Checkmate

Posts: 4591
Re: arrow initial orientation
Reply #3 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 10:27am
 
It's not a bad bow. It's just that the mythos can't live up to the reality. Which is often the case with such weapons.

As for the recurve always being more efficient than the long bow I assume that's from volume 1, 2, or 3? Volume 4 has newer data on that subject.

It's not an easy question to answer but lets just say it's very difficult to beat a well made longbow (I'm not speaking specifically of English longbow here) when keeping all other factors the same. Some recurves like the kind made by Marc St. Louis might be a bit better but when you test them in very controlled environments the verdict is usually sort of ambiguous with the difference not being all that much.

Then again Marc's bows aren't exactly your run of the mill weapons. Relatively few wood bowyer's will ever produce weapons of that caliber.
Back to top
 

Political correctness is based on the universally understood yet unspoken rule that you are not allowed to recognize patterns.
 
IP Logged
 
Bill Skinner
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3098
Re: arrow initial orientation
Reply #4 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 10:48am
 
The Yumi bow is shaped the way it is so it could be used from horseback.  Japan does not have a lot of trees that are native that make very good bows, so they used laminated bamboo.  Bamboo does not make a very good short bow, it likes to flex in a long arc.  However, that long arc isn't all that great if you are trying to shoot a bow from horse back, the long lower only lets the archer shoot to his right, trying to swing the bow hits the horses' neck.  So, the lower limb is reinforced with a wood layer, usually some form of elm so the lower limb can be as strong as the upper.  The reason that most Japanese archers are shown shooting on foot is because most Samuria couldn't afford a horse. 

That was what Jaap Kopendrayer told me, he's the guy that made that Yumi bow in the demonstration.  Talking to him about Japanese archery and Eastern archery is fascinating. 

As far as the thumb draw, that isn't just an Asian or Mongolian draw, it was also used in Africa, the Arctic and the Americas'.  Ishi was noted as using a thumb draw. Kay's book on the thumb ring points out that thumb draws were way more common than most people think. 

FWIW, I have a neck injury that forced me to learn how to shoot with a thumb ring.  So, an arrow that is spined correctly for a finger release will show it being too weak for thumb release.  So, all those shows that show the exact same arrow going sideways with one release and not the other are the result of either ignorance or because they wanted to show a bias toward one of the releases.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bill Skinner
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3098
Re: arrow initial orientation
Reply #5 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 11:01am
 
...about that arrow flying sideways.

That could have also been the result of a poor release due to "plucking" the string instead of just opening the fingers.  Which could have also been done on purpose.  That's why you wear an armguard, if you pluck, then the string will go towards the arm and the arrow will come off sideways.

With a thumb release, especially if the draw is to the ear, if you pluck, first the string slides along your face, then it hits your left nipple.  Both are rather painful.  Especially the nipple.  The string also catches on your clothes and that also messes up your shot. 

Trust me on this, you don't care at that point whether or not you hit.  You have usually dropped the bow and are saying bad words.   Grin
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Armorer
Tiro
**
Offline


Only you can prevent friendly
fire.

Posts: 10
Russia, Vladivostok
Gender: male
Re: arrow initial orientation
Reply #6 - Aug 24th, 2018 at 2:49am
 
well, my archery teacher's opinion is that almost every bow if put into weapon mount will shoot in practically the same spot and 95% of success is an archer's technique
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bill Skinner
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3098
Re: arrow initial orientation
Reply #7 - Aug 25th, 2018 at 1:11pm
 
Your teacher is incorrect.  Sort of.  It will depend on the arrow's spine and what release is used.  Like I said, an arrow properly spined for the bow will be weak if a thumb release is used.  And too stiff if the arrow is spined to thumb and then a finger release is used.

However, three under and split finger will hit in the same place.  No idea what pinch and pinch with finger assist will do.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Morphy
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Checkmate

Posts: 4591
Re: arrow initial orientation
Reply #8 - Aug 25th, 2018 at 6:41pm
 
Armorer wrote on Aug 24th, 2018 at 2:49am:
well, my archery teacher's opinion is that almost every bow if put into weapon mount will shoot in practically the same spot and 95% of success is an archer's technique


Bill I think his teacher is saying that pretty much any bow with correctly matched arrows which is put on a shooting machine will shoot consistently at the same spot.

Correct me if I'm wrong here Armorer.

One other thing about that video Sarosh posted which I find strange is the extreme lack of rotation of the longbow arrow vs the Yumi arrow.

Wonder what caused that? And is that proof they were sabotaging the test? How exactly does one accomplish that by accident?

Back to top
 

Political correctness is based on the universally understood yet unspoken rule that you are not allowed to recognize patterns.
 
IP Logged
 
Armorer
Tiro
**
Offline


Only you can prevent friendly
fire.

Posts: 10
Russia, Vladivostok
Gender: male
Re: arrow initial orientation
Reply #9 - Aug 26th, 2018 at 5:41am
 
Morphy wrote on Aug 25th, 2018 at 6:41pm:
Armorer wrote on Aug 24th, 2018 at 2:49am:
well, my archery teacher's opinion is that almost every bow if put into weapon mount will shoot in practically the same spot and 95% of success is an archer's technique


Bill I think his teacher is saying that pretty much any bow with correctly matched arrows which is put on a shooting machine will shoot consistently at the same spot.

Correct me if I'm wrong here Armorer.

One other thing about that video Sarosh posted which I find strange is the extreme lack of rotation of the longbow arrow vs the Yumi arrow.

Wonder what caused that? And is that proof they were sabotaging the test? How exactly does one accomplish that by accident?


indeed, i meant that
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bill Skinner
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3098
Re: arrow initial orientation
Reply #10 - Aug 26th, 2018 at 12:46pm
 
Morphy, actually, it won't.  The Japanese built an arrow launching machine that mimiced three finger and thumb release.  There were two distinct different groups with the same bow and arrows, depending on what release was used.  The purpose was to prove that the thumb release was better than fingers.  All they proved to anyone that has shot both ways is that changing the release requires a change in spine, too.

Same arrow fired from the same bow.  Hit a different spot.  Under controlled conditions.  Repeatedly. 

I didn't notice the arrow not rotating.  I'll go back and take a look.  You can stop an arrow from rotating if you use feathers from different wings.  It also flies like crap, too.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Morphy
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Checkmate

Posts: 4591
Re: arrow initial orientation
Reply #11 - Aug 26th, 2018 at 1:02pm
 
@Bill- Same arrow fired from the same bow.  Hit a different spot.  Under controlled conditions.  Repeatedly. 

Do you mean using the same release each time or varying the release changed the impact point? Because I agree that changing the release will change impact point. A thumb draw will definitely cause a different point of impact vs a finger draw.

I get the sense his coach wasn't talking so much about varying the release between thumb and finger as much as if a person shoots pretty much any bow from a machine the machine will always hit roughly the same spot so long as nothing else is changed from shot to shot.

So for example a Yumi with tuned arrows from a machine can be tuned to hit the bullseye everytime and a longbow with tuned matching arrows can also be set up to hit the bullseye everytime from a shooting machine. So he was making the point that a Yumi isn't somehow inherently more accurate by virtue of it being a Yumi. (Although we can make a case for longer bows being easier to shoot then really short bows but that's a different concept and we probably all agree on that.)

The catch is you have to set up the shooting machine to hit the bullseye and then not change anything after that. Once you start changing anything including the release it can change point of impact.
Back to top
 

Political correctness is based on the universally understood yet unspoken rule that you are not allowed to recognize patterns.
 
IP Logged
 
Bill Skinner
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3098
Re: arrow initial orientation
Reply #12 - Aug 26th, 2018 at 1:16pm
 
Well, the longbow archer has a bad pluck, he's also shooting solid ash arrows that look like war bow arrows, way over spined for a 45 pound draw weight bow.

The arrow is barely starting to spin just as it hits the target, it hasn't had time for the fletching to bring the back of the arrow in line with the point and start rotating.

If the guy with the longbow had properly spined arrows, his would look just like the Yumi bow's when coming off the rest.  You'd see the arrow flexing as it recovered from Archers' Paradox.  You see less with the Yumi, it's a narrower bow, but it's still there.  That Pacific Yew longbow is about twice as thick as the Yumi.

I don't know if what the commentator was saying is just the script or if they saw the results and drew the completely wrong conclusions.

And English War Bows are noted for firing arrows that weigh well over twice as much as the Japanese bows did, the Japanes used bamboo, which is hollow and tougher than the ash that was preferred by the English.  That's why Yumi bows firing their arrows went further than English longbows.
BTW, both pulled to their ear or corner of their jaw.  As soon as the arrow leaves the string, it starts decelerating, so the longer the draw, the higher the acceleration, all else being equal.  And, according to Jaap, both the English and the Japanese were shooting bows that drew over 100 pounds. (50kg)

Two things give you penetration in a projectile, speed or weight.  The Japanese used speed, the English used weight.  Comparing the two is comparing apples and oranges.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bill Skinner
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3098
Re: arrow initial orientation
Reply #13 - Aug 26th, 2018 at 7:06pm
 
Changing the release changed the impact point.  This particular bow was set up as a thumb release, when changed to finger style, it consistently shot to the left of its impact when shooting with the thumb style release.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Bill Skinner, David Morningstar, Curious Aardvark, Masiakasaurus, Rat Man, Mauro Fiorentini, Chris) - (Moderator Group: Forum Moderator)