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Thought last christmas's SITH was over ? Think again :-) (Read 5734 times)
Thearos
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Re: Thought last christmas's SITH was over ? Think again :-)
Reply #15 - Sep 14th, 2017 at 2:28pm
 
"So like most historical slinger depictions - this one is based on an actual slinger actually slinging"

There, corrected it for you.
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Curious Aardvark
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Re: Thought last christmas's SITH was over ? Think again :-)
Reply #16 - Sep 15th, 2017 at 7:29am
 
No I am correct.
Most artistic depictions of slingers are based on a model in a studio who is most likely not a slinger, striking am heroic pose.

Almost none show a slinger in motion - as it were.

So consider yourself uncorrected.
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Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
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Morphy
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Re: Thought last christmas's SITH was over ? Think again :-)
Reply #17 - Sep 15th, 2017 at 9:33am
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Sep 15th, 2017 at 7:29am:
No I am correct.
Most artistic depictions of slingers are based on a model in a studio who is most likely not a slinger, striking am heroic pose.

Almost none show a slinger in motion - as it were.

So consider yourself uncorrected.


Negative sir. All ancient manuscripts and art are based on 100% factual eye witness accounts.

...
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Thearos
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Re: Thought last christmas's SITH was over ? Think again :-)
Reply #18 - Sep 16th, 2017 at 8:17am
 
In fact, I don't there is much evidence for models "posing heroically" in studios in the ancient world. But speaking of Greek art, which I know a bit about, I can refer you to the slingers on a Mycenaean rhyton (1200 BCE ?), a geometric crater (730 BCE ?), a black-figure vase (550 BCE ?) the coins of Aspendos (e.g. 300 BCE onwards) with the starting position of slinging hand well back, and pouch held forward with left hand before eyes. It is a perfectly viable starting position, and one which might well have been taken from real life rather than be an artistic convention. Here's the Paros vase.
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Thearos
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Re: Thought last christmas's SITH was over ? Think again :-)
Reply #19 - Sep 16th, 2017 at 8:27am
 
A cup by the painter Makron shows a variant (found in other vases too), where the body is twisted away from the direction of shot, while the cords are being tensed. The body is carefully represented (and needs close reading: he is shooting towards the right, from where there are enemies shooting arrows at him) and the gesture of cord-tensing with long slings is exactly paralleled from the Baleares. The hand position with the thumb pointing forward and the palm upwards (supination in fencing terminology) is also accurately represented.

I have tried slinging this way, positioning my feet in this position (right foot pointing away from target, body turning, one rotation and then release) and it generates a long unwinding sling trajectory and if done right, a powerful, accurate, flat shot (it also hurts my elbow a bit and I generally prefer to lob).

[modified to add reference to hand position in supination]
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Thearos
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Re: Thought last christmas's SITH was over ? Think again :-)
Reply #20 - Sep 16th, 2017 at 8:30am
 
A few years ago (in summer 2014, I think, but there was earlier debate about this) there was some discussion on this. Here are some images of the "pouch before face" style. They know what they're showing.

On the other hand, the slinging position on Trajan's column is classicizing, and on the Assyrian reliefs showing the siege of Lachisch the slingers are stylized.
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Curious Aardvark
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Re: Thought last christmas's SITH was over ? Think again :-)
Reply #21 - Sep 16th, 2017 at 9:34am
 
Yep and I was right in 2014 as well Smiley
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Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
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Thearos
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Re: Thought last christmas's SITH was over ? Think again :-)
Reply #22 - Sep 16th, 2017 at 2:09pm
 
Well, you thought the chap on the Makron cup was shooting in the wrong direction, which, as Mr Morningstar pointed out, completely skewed your ability to understand the body dynamics. This reminds me of the great scholar U. von Wilamowitz, who made a terrible mistake once when using the text of Pausanias (misread south for north) when giving a public guided tour, and from then on always blamed Pausanias for getting things wrong.

I am mostly posting this, patiently, for new members, who might find interest in this selection of images. Here are two more pictures with the "pouch before face" position. One dates to 1200 BCE, one to say 460 BCE.

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Tomas
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Re: Thought last christmas's SITH was over ? Think again :-)
Reply #23 - Sep 21st, 2017 at 9:25pm
 
CA I am glad you like your gifts! If this changes your mind about split pouch slings then I'm glad I put it in your hand. Maybe you'll even improve  Wink
I encourage you all to check out my work on Facebook: Cobblestone Leathers or on instagram: cobblestone_leathers. As you might have guessed from the slings, I am into leather.
I do take bribes or even money so if you like nice things hit me up.

I might make a tutorial for you guys on how to make your own slinging drink coaster.... hopefully it won't take 9 months!
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Re: Thought last christmas's SITH was over ? Think again :-)
Reply #24 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 8:35am
 
lol, Artists have artistic licence - so most pictures are not drafted in the middle of a battle. They are done in studios with standard poses.
It's that simple. Maybe you've forgotten they didn't have photographs back then whistle

Also there are very few 9000 old slingers around, jorn is pretty much unique Wink

Yes i am taking the piss - because you take this kind of thing way too seriously Thearos, and you do seem to have an over romanticised view for an historian Smiley


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Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
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Thearos
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Re: Thought last christmas's SITH was over ? Think again :-)
Reply #25 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 12:09pm
 
Note that these are not representations of the release, which Greek artists either found difficult to seize or did not like to show, preferring starting positions. I don't think these are "studio" positions (that's a presupposition without evidence) as much as images reconstructed in the mind's eye-- both the artist's and the viewer's-- and as such, they have to be convincing. This is naturalist art, and as such, it tries to get things, bodies, and postures right-- and gets increasingly good at it. At least when we can compare things represented with actual things (for instance tools or helmets), the level of accuracy is very good. Not photography, and not trying to be-- but trying to show reality (for various ideological purposes, of course). Medieval art is also very good at showing weaponry and realia.

Things like slinging technique or archery (or horsemanship) are hard to show right, but I think those Greek artists had a good crack at it. The "Greek" style, to be authentic, should therefore be a pose with the pouch before the eyes (and hence a helicopter from static start).




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Thearos
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Re: Thought last christmas's SITH was over ? Think again :-)
Reply #26 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 1:48pm
 
A parallel debate is about spear holding position: did Greek hoplites really fight with the spear held "overhand", above their shoulders ? Greek art says yes, reenactors etc say it's too hard. Lately some guy (Thrand, on YouTube) thinks he knows why: overhand allows you a sort of controlled throw whereby the shaft slides out very fast. Myself, I think if the image is shown, it has good chances of showing a real posture.

(Chigi Olpe, perhaps 650 BCE)
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