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Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics" (Read 14820 times)
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Re: Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics"
Reply #45 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 3:35pm
 
JudoP wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 3:28pm:
Talking about every action has an equal and opposite reaction doesn't explain anything- it just muddies the water.


No - the sling rotates because the pouch becomes a drag to the north on the one side of its circle, and a drag to the south on the other side of its (= same) circle. A circle (respectivley "twist" / tornado, ...) shows two antithetical "moments" at the same time and thing.
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Re: Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics"
Reply #46 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 3:35pm
 
Quote:
WHY satellites do not fall from heaven, if there is only ONE force ???


Look up physics of orbits. Satellites do fall towards the center of the earth but because they are moving sideways fast enough so that they fall 'past' it.

Quote:
WHY heavy mountains do not sunk under ground ???


Well there is a reaction force from the earth in this case.

Quote:
WHY should exist and to be accounted different escape velocitys, if only that force counts, that made a body (mass) moving? "Moved once = moved for ever" ... or what ???


I don't see how it's relevant but-
Escape velocity only depends on the mass of what you are escaping from. It's the same for all objects on earth. It's essentially the speed with which an object moves such that it has enough kinetic energy to move away from a planet forever.

I'm not sure I understand the second part.
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Re: Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics"
Reply #47 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 3:39pm
 
JudoP wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 3:35pm:
Look up physics of orbits. Satellites do fall towards the center of the earth but because they are moving sideways fast enough so that they fall 'past' it.


Sure - but that are TWO forces at the same time and in counter-direction - not only one! So this example (and answer) speaks not for but against your own explanations!

Not I but you have to study this "physics of orbits" (respectively "physics all all") once more.
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Re: Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics"
Reply #48 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 3:45pm
 
Apex-apoc wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 3:39pm:
JudoP wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 3:35pm:
Look up physics of orbits. Satellites do fall towards the center of the earth but because they are moving sideways fast enough so that they fall 'past' it.


Sure - but that are TWO forces at the same time and in counter-direction - not only one!



I think you've misunderstood the equal and opposite reaction law.

There is only one force on the satellite, which is the inwards force towards the center of the planet. This force alone combined with the tangential velocity produces the circular motion.

The 'equal and opposite' in this situation is a force of the same strength acting on the earth(!) upwards towards the satellite.

It is an 'equal and opposite' force, however due to the huge mass of the earth it only imparts a very small acceleration.
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Re: Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics"
Reply #49 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 3:51pm
 
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Not I but you have to study this "physics of orbits" (respectively "physics all all").


I'm sorry you've taken this personally. I have nothing in this but to get the physics right, which honestly may prove too difficult for my rusty skills. I won't hesitate to question things I know to be incorrect however.

For whatever it's worth- I actually have a degree in theoretical physics- believe it or not. Circular motion I first covered at A-level.

Even so, If you don't want to take my claims at face value wikipedia and google will be in agreement with them.
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Re: Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics"
Reply #50 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 3:52pm
 
JudoP wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 3:45pm:
This force alone combined with the tangential velocity produces the circular motion.


Wrong again, but also this and right the "combo" (... combined with what? "alone" ???) are still TWO ANTI-THETICAL FORCES: Centripedal ~ and centrifugal force.

You see: The same thing becomes not better (or changed) from telling twice and once more - with or without any "degree" or "wikipedia"!

And now stop this conversation please, because we turn (talk) in a circle only.
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Re: Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics"
Reply #51 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 4:12pm
 
JudoP wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 3:51pm:
I'm sorry you've taken this personally.


Of course I did, because allready the "physics" are a "persons physics" (no person without or out of physics). Speak against physics if you want to speak against me or my mind, ratio, logic or LOGOS  cheers.
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Re: Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics"
Reply #52 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 4:48pm
 
Quote:
Wrong again, but also this and right the "combo" (... combined with what? "alone" ???) are still TWO ANTI-THETICAL FORCES: Centripedal ~ and centrifugal force.

You see: The same thing becomes not better (or changed) from telling twice and once more - with or without any "degree" or "wikipedia"!

And now stop this conversation please, because we turn (talk) in a circle only.


Obviously I still haven't managed to convey my ideas fully-

I'll leave you with this- centripetal is the only real force in the system. Centrifugal force is a 'pseudo-force' which is the result of using an accelerated reference frame (the ball, projectile- whichever, rather than a fixed reference frame).

I say it by no means as an insult- but you *can* learn all this on wikipedia etc. You stand no chance of understanding the motion of a sling without this understanding of how forces, accelerations and velocities work. Let alone the circular motion stuff.

Quote:
Of course I did, because allready the "physics" are a "persons physics" (no person out of physics). Speak against physics if you want to speak against me or my mind, ratio, logic or LOGOS  cheers.


Not sure what you are getting at here... Honestly though, I don't want this to be adversarial- I think if you can throw crazy distance then I would like to learn from you and improve my own distance throws, as you would have to have great technique to achieve such distances.

Just saying- from someone who has studied physics at a decently high level- (and wasn't half bad at mechanics)- your current theories of sling mechanics are not correct.

In addition, the fact you dispute some basic tenants of mechanics with me doesn't bode well for your prospects of producing a theory that actually works.
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Re: Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics"
Reply #53 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 5:23pm
 
JudoP wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 4:48pm:
Just saying- from someone who has studied physics at a decently high level- (and wasn't half bad at mechanics)- your current theories of sling mechanics are not correct.


Suuuper (*)! If instead your theorie is correct and from physics at its (decently) highest level, then you will much more easily and equal soon explain / declare where the "extra acceleration" of slung stones are coming from!

... but if not, then NOT!

So try to tell us (in mechanical details) the slings and human slingers generation of 240 km/h! And by the way: Lary Brays "stone" (!) had to be thrown with a "top speed" of 110 m/s - thats not only 240 km/h but 396 km/h ! ! !


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* In german we use to say "super!" instead of "perfect!" or "great!" if somthing is (super) great and / or (very) perfect!
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Re: Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics"
Reply #54 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 5:56pm
 
Apex-apoc wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 5:23pm:
JudoP wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 4:48pm:
Just saying- from someone who has studied physics at a decently high level- (and wasn't half bad at mechanics)- your current theories of sling mechanics are not correct.


Suuuper! If instead your theorie is correct and from physics at its highest level, then you will much more easily and equal soon explain / declare where the "extra acceleration" of slung stones are coming from!

... but if not, then NOT!

Tell us (in mechanical details) the slings and human slingers generation of 240 km/h!


You don't have to have the full theory of how something works to reject incorrect theories- That is not how science works!

As I said before- I may or may not be able to develop a full explanation of this- but I will point out incorrect physics where I see it. It's better an open problem rather than one with an incorrect solution.
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Re: Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics"
Reply #55 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 6:07pm
 
JudoP wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 5:56pm:
I may or may not be able to develop a full explanation of this- but I will point out incorrect physics where I see it. It's better an open problem rather than one with an incorrect solution.


But thats also "nonsens", because if you not see a primitiv slings physics correct, so you can't make us believe to have seen my "mistakes" or any higher physics "correct" in the meaning of "completely". A "slings theorie" touches only physics basics ("grammar school") - nothing for "quantum physics".

So what should be a "problem" to you in explanations for a slings physics?

Do you allready miss (-understand) the "basics" only? 

Honestly I have to admit: The speech "I'm the degreeded specialist in math & physics but do not have to have (captured) the full theory of its basics" sounds a little bit "very crazy" to me - even right if you want to say not to know, where a simple stones high velocity of more than 300 km/h could coming from, but to know where I have done theoretical mistakes.

What corious kind of "degree" is that?

What means "centrifugal force is a pseudo force"? Do you know what is the so called "true and lonley force of a united theory (of all)"???
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Re: Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics"
Reply #56 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 6:49pm
 
Quote:
But thats also "nonsens", because if you not see a primitiv slings physics correct, so you can't make us believe to have seen any "higher physics" correct. A "Slings theorie" touches only physics basics ("grammar school") - nothing for "quantum physics".

So what should to be a "problem" in explanations for a slings physic?

Do you allready miss (-understand) the "basics" only?


As you have glossed over my point:

Do you dispute that it is possible to reject theories whilst at the same time not proposing a theory of your own?

If you dispute this you are simply and obviously wrong, if not- then what I said is not nonsense, and my point stands.

---

You assume that the physics of a sling is easy?

You can't make that assumption when your theories of how it works are not consistent with/justified by the laws of physics. All that says is that you don't understand the physics. You've already made several statements that are just indisputably incorrect. Off the top of my head:

"The force is always in the same direction as the velocity."

"There are two forces required for circular motion to happen."

Then instead of acknowledging your error you just double down and try to mix in some other irrelevant concept that you don't appear to understand, like: Frames of reference, Einstein's relativity, Newtons 3rd Law (equal and opposite reaction) and centrifugal (pseudo)force.

Also, just because you can dip into mechanics late on in school it doesn't mean it's all easy. Mechanics can get extremely involved. I studied it alongside quantum mechanics and difficulty was similar.
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Re: Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics"
Reply #57 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 12:09am
 
I don't think you can really quantify larrys throw.
110 m/s is only one of the variables that contributed to the distance.
Spin of projectile Magnus effect and aero dynamics played a large role.
This could be argued on both the <110m/s>
We can speculate but we don't know the speed.
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Re: Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics"
Reply #58 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 1:51am
 
Maybe you can use this .
I know this isn't the internal ballistics but goes with my last post.
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Re: Slinging theories/explanations "internal ballistics"
Reply #59 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 3:47am
 
JudoP wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 6:49pm:
Do you dispute that it is possible to reject theories whilst at the same time not proposing a theory of your own?


No - watching you I saw that it is not only possible but done actually. But "to be possible" doesn't mean "to be caused", "to be right" or "to be full of sense". The validity of a theory or a claim depends not on your jugdment - right not then if this judgment has no theory, causes or knowledge of its own - so to reject it only makes NO SENSE.


JudoP wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 6:49pm:
You can't make that assumption when your theories of how it works are not consistent with/justified by the laws of physics.


Correct - but they ARE consistent with the laws of physics absolutely: Whilst the western hemisphere of earth runs to the east and the eastern hemisphere runs to the west the earth goes round and turns - one force and direction of move against the other while beeing TWO FORCES (and exacly how I had drawn!) - and when your claim is that the same thing were wrong or inconsistant with the laws of physics then much more your claim is indisputable incorrect. As you said allready: "It says that you don't understand the physics only."

Obviously you don't know only how to rotate a steering-wheel (with one hand or with two hands) or why it has to be fixed on an axis.

Fact is: The bullet at a moved slinging circle mostly is to compare with a rolling wheel, where the pouch is that point on the wheel that touches the ground and firstly stays "back on the road" while its axis go on. Right the point at its opposite moves with the highest speed (relative to the touching-point - not to the axis-point). Exactly this point then has to become the point of pouch (or bullet).

So what are we talking about, here??? About simply slung stones or about god and (his) whole world and physics?
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