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Absolute maximum slinging length (Read 33592 times)
Mersa
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Re: Absolute maximum slinging length
Reply #60 - Aug 13th, 2017 at 4:36pm
 
Sounds like a s-clash sling.

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Re: Absolute maximum slinging length
Reply #61 - Aug 13th, 2017 at 5:19pm
 
johan wrote on Aug 13th, 2017 at 4:17pm:
Since you throw very dense projectiles we can do the hypothesis that it is like you throw it in a vacuum.


Thats not correct. The density of a ball of tungsten is in relation to "profile", respectivley in relation to "drag" exactly twice as high as in natural stones. In other words: The drag of tungsten is only 50% of the drag of stones, and so its "range" is (as) tiwce as high too.

If you can throw a stone for 370 m, than you can throw a ball of tungsten (same mass) for 740 m ... "automatically" (while using lead - same mass - this factor is only 1,6 instead - not 2,0).

So if you had to be a Hulk for this, so you had to be too the same Hulk for throwing stones for only 370 m, but this was done already long ago and "allways" (and by Bray, Yurek, Engvall, etc. ...).

So in any point of theory you made a thinking error. Length of my sling was 1,32 m only (+ 15 cm maximum from the radius of a slinging hand). And I can't remember (or imagine) to have rotated with much more than 3 rps (4 rps I hold for absolutley undoable).

The only one possibility that I can imagine would be an even higher "factor", because Keplers second law counts on interplanetry ellipses (of gravity) and is a little bit tricky to "transfer" for acclerations in slinging. Also keep in mind, that comparisons with "hulkish conditions" can not be done if the "energy" is not known, because to throw 77 g (with 82 m/s) is not the same as to throw 150 g (with the same speed or for the same distance).


Relative drags (in relation to drag of stone):

Tungsten - 50 % (factor of range = 2,0)
Lead - 60 % (factor of range = 1,6)
Brass / Gunmetal - 66 % (factor of range = 1,57)
Steel - 67 % (factor of range = 1,48)
Stone - 100 % (factor of range = 1,0)

A ball of stone with 150 g has diameter 50 mm
A ball of tungsten with 150 g has diameter 25 mm

Thats exactly the half (50%) and therefore the ball of tungsten flies twice as far as a ball of stone.
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« Last Edit: Aug 14th, 2017 at 1:41am by Apex-apoc »  
 
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Morphy
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Re: Absolute maximum slinging length
Reply #62 - Aug 13th, 2017 at 5:45pm
 
Apex how do you avoid your ammunition sinking into the ground on impact? Seems like that is an issue for our members who sling lead.
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Re: Absolute maximum slinging length
Reply #63 - Aug 13th, 2017 at 6:03pm
 
Morphy wrote on Aug 13th, 2017 at 5:45pm:
Apex how do you avoid your ammunition sinking into the ground on impact? Seems like that is an issue for our members who sling lead.


I never slung lead, but even balls of tungsten (or steel) doesn't sink very deep when lawn is dry (= hard). Sometimes they sticks in the ground (do not "jump"), but never so deep that they aren't to found anymore.

All balls of metal I have laquered in red, and even when they sink 3 cm deep (= 1 cm top edge "under ground") they still can / could be seen / found.

Of course the laque is then "gone" mostly, but this small damage is easly renewed again with a simple spay can.
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« Last Edit: Aug 13th, 2017 at 7:19pm by Apex-apoc »  
 
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Mersa
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Re: Absolute maximum slinging length
Reply #64 - Aug 13th, 2017 at 6:58pm
 
I think in theoretical terms things can potentially travel further in air than in a vacuum(with gravity as a constant). If perfect spin and angle are achieved and lift is generated. Real life might be harder to replicate.
I've slung lead and it's not easy to find, even painted bright colours. You may be on some very compacted soil but for me it's buried deeper than 3 cm. I also don't sling anywhere near the speeds your talking.
Who knows if your telling the truth, enjoyable reading none the less.
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Re: Absolute maximum slinging length
Reply #65 - Aug 13th, 2017 at 7:51pm
 
Mersa wrote on Aug 13th, 2017 at 6:58pm:
If perfect spin and angle are achieved and lift is generated.


Spin & lift couldn't be in play, because I slung with an "instant-relaeas-sling". No spin, no lift (shots with lift I call "vögel" - like "birds" that fly by itself, but in no way to do with "balls").

Mersa wrote on Aug 13th, 2017 at 6:58pm:
Who knows if your telling the truth, enjoyable reading none the less.


And even this is not the best joke on it already, because the best joke is, that the distance(s) that I threw with steelballs in 1998 -2009 I could see first two years after the last "big shot" in 2011, because "to google the map" I was able the first time in 2013. Before I had neither notebook nor "tower" (computer), nor an interesse to know greater ranges so exactly.

Until 1998 "400 m" was the only one of larger distances, that I had measured exact (by hand) - all further distances I threw without to know how much further. I could only "imagine": "Oh yes - this shot was going much further than 450 m - perhaps 500 m, ...", but never knowing for sure or for telling somebody.
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Morphy
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Re: Absolute maximum slinging length
Reply #66 - Aug 13th, 2017 at 8:51pm
 
Wouldnt no spin be a detriment Apex? Maybe Im not understanding what youre saying. Seems like a rifled spin is pretty standard for getting the best flight out of a projectile.
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Re: Absolute maximum slinging length
Reply #67 - Aug 13th, 2017 at 9:57pm
 
I think with a ball you want a low release angle and backspin for max distance (theoretically speaking).

https://youtu.be/QtP_bh2lMXc
Basketball Magnus effect.

No spin would be hard to aim long distance. But the density used may reduce this all to a near vacuum like resistance.

Just a casual 300m 400m throw recorded and posted will be gladly accepted as evidence.
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Re: Absolute maximum slinging length
Reply #68 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 12:51am
 
Morphy wrote on Aug 13th, 2017 at 8:51pm:
Seems like a rifled spin is pretty standard for getting the best flight out of a projectile.


No - this axis of spin holds on strikt in direktion of flight to guarantee that the top of bullet always runs "ahead". Not realy for achieving higher ranges.

Here we do not speek about "bullets" with a top and a bottom, but about "balls". On the other hand of course I have no knowledge about bipointed projektiles of lead. Maybe they have the property to align themself in direction of flight.
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Re: Absolute maximum slinging length
Reply #69 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 1:05am
 
Mersa wrote on Aug 13th, 2017 at 9:57pm:
Basketball Magnus effect.


The magnus effect, respectively the axis of spin isn't automatically in that direktion that helps for throwing higher distances.

The effect also can generate a curve / deflection to the right or left hand ... or even cause a strong suction downward.

Can you determine the direction of magnus effect?

If not, than this effect would "damage" your best range mostly.
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Re: Absolute maximum slinging length
Reply #70 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 1:38am
 
As far as I understand bipoint lead is essentially trying to reduce drag and also benefit from rifle spin.
Spheres are less accurate to spin in the right direction but do have a lift potential.
I would say yes to being able to achieve predicted spin with the correct shape projectile. Not in all techniques but some.

Without counteracting gravity (lift) the speeds you are claiming to throw are huge.

Show me!
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Re: Absolute maximum slinging length
Reply #71 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 2:31am
 
Okay guys - thanks for teasing me so much  Lips Sealed. Therefore now I have a strange searching behind of me and found an incredible useful tool online:

http://www.schuetzenverein-ettenheim.de/sportschiessen/ballistikrechner.php    ("Schützenverein" means "protect clup" - Ettenheim is in Baden-Würtemberg / Germany - coincidentially very close to that town where I was born = "Lahr im Schwarzwald" in 1966).

There you can insert some of conditions, respectivley "parameters" of throwing (wight, volume, range, "top speed" ...) and this tool will calculate "energy of shot", "hight of flight", "range" and "flight time" of the ball. (

And note: ONLY FOR PROFILE OF BALLS! (thanks god).

This could answer the question of necessary top speed, because only if you insert the speed of "100 m/s" than the mentioned ball of tungsten (77 g / 20 mm) achieves the range of 720 m (if drag is calculated too - otherwise it goes over a thousand meters).

The calculation gives one result without of drag and one resault with drag  Cool.

Then try the same calculation with a ball of stone or concrete (77 g / 40 mm) and you will see the half of range only, but exactly the same "energy" (= 385 joule).

Some experiments on this tool also has shown, that best angle of shot isn't 45°, but 43°. Okay - that is peanuts of course - but to know the speed and energy now is very GREAT ! ! !

Try it ! (and ask me if you could not understand any german expression on this tool).



top speed
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« Last Edit: Aug 14th, 2017 at 3:42am by Apex-apoc »  
 
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Slinging Rocks!

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Re: Absolute maximum slinging length
Reply #72 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 3:26am
 
360 km/h (= 224 mph) seems to be incredible high, but note: If you want to throw a ball of stone for 370 m only you nevertheless need the same speed and the same energy (385 joule if the mass of bullet is 77 g).

Either you reach this speed or your "rock" never comes close to 350 m.
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Re: Absolute maximum slinging length
Reply #73 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 4:56am
 
so you are saying 100m/s is achievable and that also others have done it.

my problem is that most throw half that speed even when trying hard.

what i'm trying to understand is : more or less everybody slings the same way, even if you made a graph and constructed a model that model is based on reality since we live in the same reality  , what is it that enables you (or a record holder) to throw double the velocity of all else?

could an average guy replicate your results by doing the same you did?

if yes ,then it's easier than we think. In this case i'm really interested on better explanations and details.

if no, then you represent a very small minority like all record holders, you should be happy of your achievements but your theories can't help the rest of us achieve what you did.




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Re: Absolute maximum slinging length
Reply #74 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 5:47am
 
johan wrote on Aug 14th, 2017 at 4:56am:
if yes ,then it's easier than we think. In this case i'm really interested on better explanations and details.


Ben Johnson wasn't Hulk. Is it now "easy" for you to run the 100 m in less then 10 seconds? What do you make wrong while running?

I am not Hulk too, but is it easy to throw much more than 100.000 rocks (in 27 years, respectively 19 years until 2011) ?

_______________________________________________________________________________


A few minutes ago I insert the parameters of Yureks throwing (505 m) into the mentioned "tool", because somewhere he said his "lead" have had a weight of 90 g and the flight of this had been broken by collision with an "aquaduct". So I take the hypothetical distance of 525 m (without collision) and calculated a lead-size of 24,7 mm (profile of ball) by myself.

The result of "tool" then was 85 m/s (= 306 km/h) and 325 Joule of energy.

So the difference between his and my shot isn't such a great thing or "wonder" - especially when he says by himself, that he was not a well trained / experienced slinger.



johan wrote on Aug 14th, 2017 at 4:56am:
could an average guy replicate your results by doing the same you did?


I would say "yes - if you would have talent for this and the time for another few years of practice - means somewhat about 50.000 throws within the next 5 years". Don't know what is your personal "record" and your condition right now.

And you are right: The secret momentum of slinging is somewhere hidden in the last half of round and in transformation it from a circular shape to a (long small) elliptical shape.

My drawn & theory in the main should say only that the most amount of speed can't get from making pirouettes or other types of pure "circles". But also it can't get from only one pure long elliptical turn with an initial velocity of only 10 m/s.

I mean, the transformation from circle to ellipse (what I had called "extension") is that what makes the most important "factor". But even the best faktor can't do a lot if the other factor is only 10 m/s. So both of them have to be brought at its best amount:

Do not start with a "la-la-la-weak-slinging"  whistle ... while thinkink "all horses power" (300 km/h) could came out of the last move an strength. That is what I wan't to say.
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« Last Edit: Aug 14th, 2017 at 7:12am by Apex-apoc »  
 
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