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Political Correctness (Read 7464 times)
perpetualstudent
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Re: Political Correctness
Reply #45 - Jun 24th, 2017 at 2:04am
 
Actually RM, Comey (currently in favor with the left) said she was guilty of crimes with regards to the mishandling of classified information. He just declined to prosecute.  That it was immensely political doesn't change that she was guilty.
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Morphy
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Re: Political Correctness
Reply #46 - Jun 24th, 2017 at 8:11am
 
18USC§1621  Perjury (Including Documents Signed Under Penalties Of Perjury)
18USC§1519  Destruction (Alteration Or Falsification) Of Records In Federal Investigation
18USC§1924  Unauthorized Removal And Retention Of Classified Documents Or Material


The list goes on.  There is no question by anyone that she did things that have put others in jail for the same acts. The only question is why Comey, who was the director of the FBI took it upon himself to do the Department of Justices job and say there was no need to pursue this because no one would actually prosecute it.. That is not the FBIs job. Their job is to gather facts and let the DOJ decide whether its worthy of prosecuting. That is my understanding. The fact that people have gone to jail for doing less than Comey said she did is a good case for corruption at the highest levels.

On top of that the DNC was caught rigging the primaries to get rid of Bernie. Members of the democratic party were caught recieving questions to a debate before the debate. And, as you mentioned, some very questionable and ill timed deaths of whistleblowers shortly after major leaks. You may not want to hear that but I am sure if it was Trump and not Hillary that had emails leaked and the suspected leaker died shortly thereafter in a execution style "robbery" where nothing was taken, you might be more open to the idea. Which, let me say, I would as well. We should not view politics as a team sport. There is one team and that is this country. When something fishy happens we are obliged to investigate with an open mind for the welfare of everyone that calls themself an America. No matter what side it occurs on. I dont claim it was an execution, but the timing sure wasnt great either.

Lastly, let me say, Im put in a difficult position here. Im having what I said challenged to some degree. So I am put in the position of seemingly defending Trump or worse the Republican party. Who I largely despise at this point. My intention is not to defend them. Its to lay out my reasoning against Hillary irregardless of my (almost) equally negative feelings towards the current Republican party in general.
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Re: Political Correctness
Reply #47 - Jun 24th, 2017 at 8:49am
 
Absoltuely wrong, ps.
https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/statement-by-fbi-director-james...
With the powerful forces aligned against her and with the amount of time and taxpayer money spent digging for dirt I can't help but draw the logical conclusion that if there was any substance at all to the allegations against Clinton there would certainly be criminal charges. We must all be cautious.  There is much "fake news" out there these days.
    This is my opinion. I am really not interested in expending energy defending or arguing about Clinton. She is yesterday's news.  As you noted, Morphy, we have a much bigger problem... tRump. 
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Political Correctness
Reply #48 - Jun 24th, 2017 at 9:35am
 
RM, he said in your own link that t "we did not find clear evidence that Secretary Clinton or her colleagues intended to violate laws governing the handling of classified information, there is evidence that they were extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information"

In the course of the questioning we saw that she did send classified info in her emails (contrary to her statements to the contrary).

It is not the big deal that it was made to be. But it was illegal to send those emails. She did do it. Comey said that it would be illegal for another individual to act as she did.  And the gov declined to prosecute, which is not at all saying she was innocent.  Yes it was a bit of a witch hunt but she was let off because it was a witch hunt.

Here is the question though. You're right that Clinton is old news and Trump is the real question. So the question is, What has he done that is so extreme? It's been six months and nothing extreme has happened. With the exception of violent demonstrations from the left, and now an individual hopped up on all the hate attacking GOP congressmen with a rifle. Where I sit, I see the anti-trumpers as being far more unreasonable and dangerous.


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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Re: Political Correctness
Reply #49 - Jun 25th, 2017 at 12:05pm
 
Morphy, free speech is a PITA sometimes, isn't it? 

You end up having to defend guys like Trump, not because you agree with them, but because if you censor the scumbags or allow them to be misrepresented, it's actually worse in the long run.

Freedom isn't supposed to make you feel all warm and fuzzy and safe.  You are required to watch people in positions of power like a hawk to make sure they don't overstep their boundries. 

And it hasn't helped that our "free press" has moved firmly into the camps of the political parties, now they give their side a "bye" while they expose exactly the thing when the other side does it.  They have basically become the propaganda arm of the party.
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Re: Political Correctness
Reply #50 - Jun 25th, 2017 at 2:45pm
 
It's far worse than that Im afraid. Now the major multinationals are actively erasing and punishing those who spread "fake news".  Guess who decides what is fake and what isnt? This is quite literally the Ministry of Truth from 1984.

One thing I find interesting in this thread is this pesky gauntlet that Perpetual Student keeps throwing down which never gets picked up.  The question has been posed several times what exactly has Trump done that has made him this monster from peoples nightmares? Name calling is fair, but specifics are more interesting.

No answer yet. I wish people would answer it. And Im serious about that, I really enjoy seeing other peoples sides to arguments and often find myself needing to tweak my own views once a good case has been made.

I dont view Trump as a monster. I "suspect" hes probably a pretty dodgy guy but unlike with Hillary the evidence is not there just yet. He may very well be the Hyde but so far all I've seen is a misbehaving Jekyll.

Most of my views on him are pretty basic. He lies alot. So far Ive not seen evidence of any really damaging lies. The whole Russia thing has already been admitted to be based on no evidence. It all might be true, but why is it when pinned down the opposition always admits there is no evidence? As of what I know right now, there is no evidence of Russia hacking our election in collusion with Donald Trump.

He tends to say things that are provactive for effect and then turn around later and pretend like he meant something else or never said it at all. Politicians lie all the time so this is nothing new. Hes a loose cannon. And biggest of all because of his outsider status he can pretend to be on the conservative side while implementing things that are anything but. Trillion dollar infrastructure program? Ill pass. Trump Care? No thanks, when it inevitably crashes all he will have accomplished is removing blame from Obama and putting it on himself.  More foreign military entanglments? No. For Petes sake stop bombing people.  A Buffoon? Unlikely. The guy swims in deep waters. No self made billionaire is a buffoon. Period. Trustworthy? Inspiring? My first or 10th choice? None of the above. Those are my thoughts anyways. I dont particularly like the guy but we had two choices. One was Hillary, nuff said.
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Re: Political Correctness
Reply #51 - Jun 25th, 2017 at 7:17pm
 
On Trump, well I'll do my best to pick up the gauntlet and give my perspective from across the pond.

That the Russians conspired to put him in the Whitehouse is practically established. What the investigations are about are whether Trump actually colluded with said Russians or whether the Russians acted alone. If he had no part in it then fair enough, as you can't help if you were helped.

The lying is a curious case- I can sort of see where the "He hasn't lied about important stuff" comes in, but really I find what he does much more disturbing than other politicians. To be honest- it's difficult to put my finger on exactly why, but I'll try.

Trump lies in a very different way to other politicians.
Other politicians will lie tactically and conservatively and try to preserve their reputations (they actually honor truth as something to aim for at least). Trump in contrast appears to pathologically lie by default, cultivating a culture where the truth is meaningless or can't be known due to 'fake news' and any media can be dismissed as such.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html

He pollutes the mainstream with so much rubbish it's like a bizarre propaganda tactic. I mean- lying about all the 'small' stuff is bad enough, but normalizing the lying is especially damaging. How can you scrutinize his political positions if they change all the time? How can you scrutinize anything about him if he doesn't acknowledge facts? How do you convince voters if they are convinced all (or a lot of) criticism is fake news?

Trump may not have tangibly wrecked anything (yet) but people are going crazy over the brazen smokescreen rather than all the subpar governing and all the supposedly 'minor' stuff gone awry. Truth is, I'd pick basically any previous president to govern more competently day to day, week to week.

I can't help but to think if all this bluster was not part and parcel of Trump he wouldn't be able to sustain his popularity.

The other part of why I dislike him is that he's clearly just a dishonorable person. Some of his business practices in the past have been clearly exploitative. The whole 'locker room talk' sexual assault episode. *Constant* dishonesty. Incredible narcissism. Other things. He basically acts like the most obnoxious 8 year old on the planet.
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Re: Political Correctness
Reply #52 - Jun 26th, 2017 at 3:13pm
 
     ps, I hardly know where to start.  tRump showed his true colors by defunding Meals on Wheels. (a service to provide hot meals to disabled or impoverished seniors) The price of just one of his many golf trips to Florida could have kept it afloat.  His attempting do defund public educational television while spending a fortune in taxpayer money so Malaria didn't have to live in The White House is rather disgusting.  Cutting funds for the EPA....  Do you remember when American rivers were so polluted that they caught on fire? I do.  Why would he do such a thing... connect the dots.  So him and his billionaire buddies can make bigger profits at the expense of our air and water. Attempting to deprive twenty four million Americans of healthcare is as despicable as one can get.  Many of these people will die as a direct result.  Mothers, fathers, babies will die. His constant lying is as unpresidential as one can get. tRump handing out cabinet positions to totally unqualified and inexperienced campaign contributors and cronies is rather disturbing.          tRump didn't just arrive on the scene.  He has a long history.  He has always been a lying crook.  Anyone who can read can verify that. 
    The first thing that any fascist dictator does is attack the free press.  "Fake news!" Keep in mind that initially Hitler was legally elected.  I could fill volumes as to why I despise tRump. He is by far the worst president in my lifetime and quite probably ever.
Let me leave you with these gems:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html
http://mashable.com/2016/03/12/trump-rally-incite-violence/#.3KbP_Kpdiqi
Yeah, he's a real peach, isn't he? Other than the fact that he's a racist, a traitor, a draft dodging coward, a liar, a crook, a braggart, a fruitcake, and a bully WHO PUBLICLY MOCKS HANDICAPPED PEOPLE he's a fine president. As I said, I could fill volumes.  I have only scratched the surface here.  Google up what tRump did to the contractors who worked on his casino in Atlantic City.  Yeah, he's all  for the American worker.  That's why tRump Industries outsources its labor to foreign countries. I'll stop here.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Political Correctness
Reply #53 - Jun 26th, 2017 at 5:15pm
 
I should point out that like Morphy I'm not a fan of Trump. I find nothing good in the election. That said I don't buy the "Trump is the worst thing ever" argument. And I doubt that you and I will reach an accord here RM, but I'm willing to try.

Most of the things that you have listed are overstatements of things that reasonable people can disagree over: The healthcare debate and the federal budget. Whether (or to what degree) we want government subsidization of healthcare is a legitimate point of disagreement. Those who disagree with Obamacare are not out to kill people and it's unfair to characterize it that way. Particularly since TANSTAFL still applies, at what cost? Which is the heart of the second issue, how much ought the government spend and where does the money come from? It's reasonable to disagree over these issues.

The way you've presented the issues keeps that reasonable discussion from happening. The Meals on Wheels for instance is an unsubstantiated worst case scenario.  Even NPR (far from a Trump fan club) acknowledges that any potential hit to the meals on wheels budget is at least 2 decisions downstream from Trump's budget. http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/03/20/520848721/could-meals-on-wheels-r...; Similarly decreasing the EPA's budget is not giving free reign to dump toxins in the water.

These examples have a common and dangerous thread of logic. Put charitably it boils down to "Any decrease in budget must be opposed or helpless people suffer". Which turns the political game into a one way ratchet and that's dangerous.

The rest of the attacks on trump boil down to personal attacks and that's fine. You're allowed to hate him (so long as you extended the same courtesy for our previous president and his opponents). But that's not evidence of dangerous extremism and doesn't sway me at all. Questionable cabinet appointments are nothing compared to a horrifying Attorney General under Obama.

The press issue I want to have a more complete response to and my daughters won't let me type that right now.  Grin


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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Re: Political Correctness
Reply #54 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 9:06am
 
The press issue is very important and central (I think) to Trump's win. And they're on track to help put him back in office next term.

As Bill pointed out the media has taken sides in America. To the point where only a third (32%)of people think they're unbiased or fair in reporting. If you break it down it by political preference you get Dems (50%), GOP (17%), and Independents (30%). So the left trusts them more but that's the direction we think the media is biased, and even half of them don't think the media is fair. The 2 sides balance each other out and the independents are right at the average. So I think it's safe to say most of us (68%) think the media is biased. Pew had similar numbers but these are from gallup (http://www.gallup.com/poll/195542/americans-trust-mass-media-sinks-new-low.aspx ).

Worse than taking sides, they've let the standards of reporting slip and they don't realize it. An honest media could not have been controlled and trolled by Trump. Lucky for him we haven't had an honest media for a while. We're back to Yellow Journalism. So when Trump calls CNN fake news, that has more than a nugget of truth to it for the 68% of us who don't trust the media. When their response is to act aggrieved and all the rest of the media rally to their defense and squawk  "4th estate! 4th estate!" like trained parrots. That doesn't help them because we know they're not paragons of journalistic integrity. (as a sidenote I'd love to see a poll of journalists as to what the other 3 estates are. It would be depressingly hilarious I have no doubt).

And then the evidence keeps mounting that Trump has more than a nugget of truth. CNN just fired 3 reporters (one of whom had a pulitzer) for reporting anti-trump news without adequate sources (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40414886) and in Comey's 2nd appearance before congress he confirmed that a Washington Post story about classified stuff was almost completely incorrect.

That's the key for Trump. He lies all the time BUT he almost always has a nugget of truth inside the lie. So we trust the liar more than the other liars because he's saying truths that others deny and most of the time he's overstating a true point. Honestly it's a difference of degree and style. The lying tactics are changing but lying has been an accepted strategy. The new player has found a loophole in the game that's letting him beat his opponents and nobody else has figured out how to counter the new strategy.

We're not going from honest politicians and statesmen to trump, we're going from crooked politicians to different crooked politicians. And so the public isn't buying it as the end of the world and the "resist!" activists seem more and more dangerous. And to be fair have been more dangerous.
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Re: Political Correctness
Reply #55 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 10:25am
 
The new project veritas video with the CNN producer saying the Russia story was fake news could hardly have been more apropos to the current bent of this thread. I had to laugh a little watching it.

I dont think Trump could have been popular 50 years ago. Possibly not even 25. I think with the advent of social media and youtube people are having this collective wakening. You see it in phrases like "stay woke". Before the internet it was a lot of individuals each feeling that something was wrong but unable to stand against the tidal wave of constant imposed opinions of the media.  Then you have social media and alternative news sources and suddenly one guy is on stage at debates saying words no one would have dared 40 years ago. The system is rigged. The news is fake. All these people are corrupt.

Trump was nothing more than a mouthpiece for a huge ground swell that had been building for years. The internet was feeding it and social media accelerated it greatly. The lack of any meaningful economic recovery was the final straw. The fact that someone had the audacity to speak what many felt was truth snapped a lot of people out of a collective hypnotism. Trump was the child calling out the naked emperor. It was bound to happen.

Many hate the way he words things but its not the specifics that got Trump elected. It was audacity to give the middle finger to the system live on tv.
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Re: Political Correctness
Reply #56 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 7:01pm
 
24 million Americans stand to loose their healthcare. The poor and elderly will see a substantial raise in their premiums while the super rich get even bigger tax breaks. Did I misrepresent anything here?  This isn't about opinions. This is about right and wrong. Yes, people will die as a direct result of tRumpcare. Plain and simple. Pulling out on the Paris Climate Accord and defunding the EPA won't make the world a better place for our children. And tRump lies literally on a daily basis. Sugar coating this mess is counterproductive and helps no one.
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Re: Political Correctness
Reply #57 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 7:49pm
 
Morphy wrote on Jun 28th, 2017 at 10:25am:
Trump was the child calling out the naked emperor.


Trump IS the naked emperor and you are trying to tell me he has the prettiest clothes, while the Dems are trying to convince Republicans that he is naked.
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Re: Political Correctness
Reply #58 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 7:58pm
 
Onager Lovac wrote on Jun 28th, 2017 at 7:49pm:
Morphy wrote on Jun 28th, 2017 at 10:25am:
Trump was the child calling out the naked emperor.


Trump IS the naked emperor and you are trying to tell me he has the prettiest clothes, while the Dems are trying to convince Republicans that he is naked.



Ive called trump a liar, a loose cannon and a dodgy guy. I have stated my disgust for the party he represents. All in all I think Ive been pretty even handed. Truth is, I can hardly decide how I feel about him. I would never presume to tell others how they feel about him.
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Re: Political Correctness
Reply #59 - Jun 29th, 2017 at 7:25am
 
Rat Man wrote on Jun 28th, 2017 at 7:01pm:
  This isn't about opinions. This is about right and wrong.


And with that we see that we cannot reach an accord. For you any thing that Trump does is wrong. Period. If your analysis is that simple that's fine - but it sways me (again not a Trump fan) not a whit. Further discussion will get us nowhere.
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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