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Achaean Sling Design? (Read 11176 times)
Whipartist
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Achaean Sling Design?
Aug 30th, 2016 at 3:05pm
 
Livy describes how the Achaeans were such accurate slingers

Livy's History Of Rome 38.29

Quote:
A hundred slingers were sent for from Aegium, Patrae and Dymae. These men had been in the habit, as their fathers had before them, of practicing with their slings, with which they used to hurl into the sea the round stones lying on the beach. In this way they gained a more accurate and longer range than the Baliaric slingers. Their slings, too, were not made of a single strap, like those of the Baliarics and other nations, but they consisted of three thongs, stiffened by beings sewn together. This prevented the bullet from flying off at random when the thong was let go; when fixed in the sling it could be so whirled round as to fly out as though from the string of a bow. They used to send their stones through rings at a great distance, as targets, and were thus able to hit not only the head but whatever part of the face they aimed at. These slings kept the Samaeans from making such frequent or such daring sorties; so much so in fact that they called to the Achaeans from their walls and begged them to retire for a time and remain quiet spectators while they fought with the Roman outposts.


I am curious, before I later post some pictures of a sling design I've come up with that might be the same or similar to what they were using, whether anyone else has researched this topic before me in terms of trying to figure out what Livy is describing here? 

I've been gone for a while from this forum, but I was one of the founding members and was active 12-13 years ago or so. 

So there are a few issues with precise accuracy. 

First, magnus effect (from stone spin) can curve off a shot.  How can this be controlled, eliminated or adjusted in the sling itself, since only glass smooth ammo may not be affected by magnus effect imparted by the friction of the sling cradle on release.

Second, consistent stone size, texture, mass, etc..., can all affect how long the stone hangs up in the cradle of the sling, and thus where the shot actually goes?  Releases are not instantaneous on even the most supple of slings with the heaviest projectiles.

Third, I think that the figure 8 is possibly the most accurate of all slinging techniques. 

This is my opinion and I say this despite not using it myself very extensively or to very great advantage.  It seems to me that the figure 8 technique tends to be difficult to do well against targets at distance or which are located above the slinger.  It's best suited for targets on the ground.  Am I mistaken about this?  Please let me know if I am but all the footage I ever see of targeting with it are against targets on the ground. 

What if a sling could be made which released more instantaneously and thus allowed a figure 8 thrower to raise his shots higher with more ease and better form? 

Also, any magnus effect given to a projectile on a figure 8, produces lift, which is the best direction to utilize magnus effect without throwing off a shot. 

These are my candid thoughts and questions, and I am in
"group think" mode here so help me out.  Later, if I get interest, I'll post pictures of my own "Achaean" sling design, which I believe is probably the concept that Livy is describing.  I hope that this design will be taken by the members and experimented with, as I do not have time to do it justice since I'm primarily focused on the Aboriginal Karli at this time.

Benjamin Scott
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Cyrus
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Re: Achaean Sling Design?
Reply #1 - Aug 30th, 2016 at 4:42pm
 
Is it possible that only the third thong need be released? So, you have the open style of cup (not sure what it's called, but the sort of pouch where there are just the three bits of string or whatnot as opposed to a solid pouch), and on release, the middle supporting strand falls away, allowing the stone to pass through? Just a thought, not sure if this could even work, and it seems even more unmanageable with a bullet-sized projectile...
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Re: Achaean Sling Design?
Reply #2 - Aug 31st, 2016 at 12:33am
 
Cyrus,

Good guess, but there's still no advantage there, as you point out.  Why take something simple and make it more complex by adding an extra retention cord?

I think that there's a logical interpretation of what Livy says but I want to get discussion going further.

Quote:
Their slings, too, were not made of a single strap, like those of the Baliarics and other nations, but they consisted of three thongs, stiffened by being sewn together.


What does he mean, "stiffened by being sewn together"?

So how many cords are now here?  1, 2 or 3?

Quote:
This prevented the bullet from flying off at random when the thong was let go;


So is Livy saying that in some sense all the slings of all other nations would fly off at random when the thong was let go?

Quote:
when fixed in the sling it could be so whirled round as to fly out as though from the string of a bow.


What are the characteristics of a bow string which releases an arrow?

Ok, so what is Livy talking about?  A unique sling so accurate it could target the parts of a man's face, in skilled hands.

I know someone besides myself can put this puzzle together.

Benjamin

Throwsticks Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzu32QSVpthgB2FraSmc0ag

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Re: Achaean Sling Design?
Reply #3 - Aug 31st, 2016 at 6:09am
 
i ve tried different slings  but more consistent than a split pouch (i use ) could be a pouch, only because if i put perfectly smooth small and round stones in a split pouch it may slip through the split, that is the main reason i cant use a split pouch for lead projectiles .

Quote:
Their slings, too, were not made of a single strap, like those of the Baliarics and other nations, but they consisted of three thongs, stiffened by beings sewn together. This prevented the bullet from flying off at random when the thong was let go;


if we take it literally then balearics  used something wider than thong ,it says strap so maybe it was like a tappered belt which if you try throwing with this you ll find that the drag is huge.

so maybe achaeans liked slimmer slings like split pouches but they liked also small smooth round stones which gave them flyiers through the split so they put an extra thong in the middle forming some kind of pouch .


Quote:
when fixed in the sling it could be so whirled round as to fly out as though from the string of a bow.

livy saw it that way ...
if i remember correctly ancients believed that lead melt in mid air because of the velocity so it was capable of piercing armor.

but lead indeed heat up but only at the moment of impact . so they observed something true but explained it wrong.

the only extraordinary in this passage is the mastery of those men not the tools they used , we have better tools today but only half if not less mastery than they had ...
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Re: Achaean Sling Design?
Reply #4 - Sep 1st, 2016 at 7:49am
 
think pouch not sling and you'll be more on the right lines Smiley

Anyone watching a balearic slinging competition will witness stones flying off in random directions.
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Re: Achaean Sling Design?
Reply #5 - Sep 1st, 2016 at 10:58pm
 
Got me thinking now..... Gonna experiment and come back! I'm thinking top spin....
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Re: Achaean Sling Design?
Reply #6 - Sep 2nd, 2016 at 4:21am
 
I think that the interpretation of the this text as referring only to the pouch and not the entire sling is a plausible explanation but I don't think it's the best one. 

First, he says that the issue that is resolved is that the bullet doesn't fly off at random when the cord is let go.  I don't believe that any specific number of strands in the cradle or pouch would make a difference there. 

He also says that their slings were highly unique and that all the other nations were not this way. 

He highlights the three thongs as if that was special.  But we know that split cradles of two or more thongs were common in some places and not unique. 

And he compares the release of this sling to a bowstring.  How would this unique sling eliminate random releases when the thong is let go? 

My thought is that all slings are not instantaneous in their release due to frictional forces and the release cord and release part of the cradle being in the way. 

And that no amount of cords in the cradle change this.

Also, it seems the whole sling is being referenced by Livy because did the Balearics ever use a single strap in their cradle anyway? 

What made the Achean sling different from everyone else?

Ben


Throwsticks Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzu32QSVpthgB2FraSmc0ag


 

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Re: Achaean Sling Design?
Reply #7 - Sep 2nd, 2016 at 7:19am
 
Quote:
lso, it seems the whole sling is being referenced by Livy because did the Balearics ever use a single strap in their cradle anyway?


ask luis, if he doesn't know - nobody does Smiley

But you have to realise that 10 historians could interprate the same text and we'd get 10 different descriptions of the sling.

And a three srand pouch would make a lot of difference over a 2 strand one, where stone frequently go through the pouch hole. 
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Re: Achaean Sling Design?
Reply #8 - Sep 2nd, 2016 at 10:13am
 
i don't know what you are looking for,
but a " holy grail " of slings as you describe would need to not be a sling but another artifact.
slinging is something dynamic and without sights,anchor points, reference points the only way to aim is instictive as they call it in other sports . There will be wild shots while learning, until you become a master.

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Re: Achaean Sling Design?
Reply #9 - Sep 3rd, 2016 at 1:34am
 
If Livy is only referring to the cradle then why are we interpreting him as calling a split cradle a single strap when it is actually not a single strap but a double? 

And obviously "single strap" cradles are extremely secure as well, if they are wide enough.  They don't cause more or less randomness than 2 or 3 strands.  But regardless, again, he's not comparing two to three, he's comparing one to three.  One strap to three thongs more specifically.

The information I recall on the old Balearic slings was that they featured multiple parallel straps for the cradle.  Much more than 2 or 3.  These may or may not have been joined at intervals by trading strands.  If anyone wants to weigh in on that with better information, go ahead, but obviously these days the Balearic slings are not a single strap cradle but a double strap cradle on a single strap sling.  They always used natural plant materials, which lends itself to these designs. 

So the Balearic slings wouldn't fit with what Livy is saying in terms of "single strap" if he is only referring to the cradle.  He must be referring to the whole sling, in which case the number of strands forming the cradle is irrelevant.  But if he's referring to the whole sling instead of just the cradle, then what does he mean?

In terms of stability, 3 cradle strands would be inherently less stable than 2 or 1, since the center strand may not be on the correct curve to fit the stone, causing it to flip to one side of the cradle or other.  Two points are on the same curve if the curve is big enough so a split cradle is ideal where a solid pouch is not used.

Split cradles only allow stones to release through the hole if the stone is smaller than the size the sling is suited for.  This is certainly not an issue even worth mentioning for Livy since no skilled slinger or sling maker would ever have this issue at all with any sling.  I've never had that issue since I was a beginner experimenting, and Livy would not mention it because it's a non-issue for military forces.  It's an issue for little boys playing in the field and that's about it. 

It's doubtful that all the nations had poorly constructed slings but only one figured out how to make a secure cradle....  A split cradle is really ideal on a regular sling.  I've braided a lot of Andean slings and never have problems with stones slipping through them.

I'm not looking for the Holy Grail, I'm merely trying to interpret what Livy said, since he had some fairly extensive information on these slings and slingers and how they trained, etc.... 

I have come up with a useful sling design that fits with what he said very literally.  I was hoping someone else would catch onto what he appears to be saying.  When piecing the past together it pays to pay very careful attention to the text and not gloss over it because we haven't made sense of it easily.  Sometimes ancient texts are difficult to work with, but I've always found that I should look more deeply at the text, not less so, when things don't quite make sense.  I think it's obvious that Livy is describing a sling that is entirely unique in design.

Quote:
This prevented the bullet from flying off at random when the thong was let go;


Again, the issue Livy seems to be addressing is that all normal slings delay on release at the precise moment that the thong is let go, creating some slight randomness in the release of the stone, which disturbs accuracy, even if the slinger isn't random himself in his skills.  Note that he doesn't complain that slingers release their cords randomly but rather that slings release bullets randomly at the moment when the cord is let go.  This is a huge distinction.  I do not think he means that sling stones were flying everywhere but only that accuracy was diminished.   

Any thoughtful and experienced slinger knows that this delay between release of cord and release of stone is dependent on stone weight, texture, size, sling stiffness, material, design, etc..., and maybe even humidity and the twist in the sling or angle of the cradle in relation to the target as release occurs.  With these ingredients being imperfect, even if slightly so, accuracy is a challenge without consistent stones, slings, and conditions.  But stones aren't consistent and neither is slinging with traditional slings.
 
The Achean sling seems to largely (but not totally) overcome this deficiency so that the stones are released as if from the string of a bow, allowing a skilled slinger to have more consistent accuracy than with all other slings, with practice, of course.  In sort, the Achean design, though only used by only one nation, was demonstrably more accurate than all of it's single strap cousins the rest of the world over.  I'm sure that the single strap cousins were telling the Acheans that their slings weren't slings, but the proof is in the damage they could do to their opponents faces. 

To think that the striking uniqueness of the Achean sling is merely the addition of an extra cord in the cradle is too far fetched for me and too much of a cut on the other nations and their slingers.  No, this was a new design entirely.   

Anyone want to have a final crack at reading the text and taking Livy literally to see where what he's saying might lead?  That's all I'm doing and it's how I came up with this sling design.  I didn't invent it, I built it after thinking through what Livy was saying. 

I can think of 3 or 4 different ways to do what I'm doing and I don't know exactly which one the Acheans used, but they all share the quality of a more instantaneous release between cord and stone, and they all basically fit with the description that Livy gave of the Achean slings.

And of course I could be wrong, but then Livy accidentally helped me invent something new and useful by my wild imaginations being triggered by what what he wrote.  That would be hilarious as well.  I have learned that historians and scientists are often very poor at understanding ancient weapons and tools compared to experimental archaelogists who recreate these items and use them in the field.   
  
 
Ben

Throwsticks Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzu32QSVpthgB2FraSmc0ag


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Re: Achaean Sling Design?
Reply #10 - Sep 3rd, 2016 at 4:30am
 
in the past i made some slings having livy's passage in mind . I found out that generally the simpler the design the better the sling.

Whipartist wrote on Sep 3rd, 2016 at 1:34am:
Any thoughtful and experienced slinger knows that this delay between release of cord and release of stone is dependent on stone weight, texture, size, sling stiffness, material, design, etc..., and maybe even humidity and the twist in the sling or angle of the cradle in relation to the target as release occurs.  With these ingredients being imperfect, even if slightly so, accuracy is a challenge without consistent stones, slings, and conditions.  But stones aren't consistent and neither is slinging with traditional slings.


yes there is true in that but its a minor problem and is obvious when you change ammo type.

any weapon system has such flaws ,this is the way it is.

this will sound stupid but,
this reminds me of kung fu panda 1 when the dragon scroll was handed at Po (This scroll contains the ultimate kung fu secret—"the key to limitless power")
and when he opens it the scroll is blank.i believe it 's the wisest scene of every animation movie ive seen.

i think you are looking for that "key to limitless power" and the sling you are gonna find will be the simplest one your hands are gonna make.

The best thing you can do is experiment toward your current goal and in the way there you may find things you never thought of.



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Re: Achaean Sling Design?
Reply #11 - Sep 3rd, 2016 at 8:16pm
 
I've been reading this thread, and, while I have seen Livy's account before, I never thought too much about it. The three cord statement does remind me of some slings posted to the forum awhile ago made by a member named Thomas: http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1227069230/15. The three-way pouch allowed the ammo to be released without having to let go of the cord.

While I don't think that was what Livy was describing, it may be related. I can imagine a similar three-way pouch, but with a long loop of cord connected to two of the ends of the pouch. If this loop was griped in the middle, it could serve as the release cord, but the grip could be similar to the grip used on a bowstring. Thus the sling would appear to have three cords, and the bowstring statement would have some relevancy.

This is just a thought, and I have no idea if it would work, if it is at all what Livy was actually describing, or if it would have any practical advantage, but it's at least an interesting idea [to me].

-Timothy Potter

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Re: Achaean Sling Design?
Reply #12 - Sep 3rd, 2016 at 11:40pm
 
Timothy,

Thanks for digging that up!  I knew that I wasn't the first to figure out this design, because it's too obvious.  Great work. 

Now there are several ways to do this and obviously the release cord does not need to go beyond a certain distance to make it work, but that doesn't matter either way.  The pouch can just be stiff, or it can extend around the stone, or the twin release cords can be spaced with a light weight wood or bone bar, several inches from the stone, or they can just extend well down the release cord to provide space.  All of these can work in the design. 

Quote:
Their slings, too, were not made of a single strap, like those of the Baliarics and other nations,


My and Thomas' design fit with this statement perfectly. (please see my attachments)

Quote:
but they consisted of three thongs, stiffened by beings sewn together.


And this statement.  Sewn together either by a stiff cradle, by being joined together in a yoke, etc..., but in all cases the cradle is made stiff by this design.  "Sewn" doesn't necessarily refer to a needle and thread but rather to being joined together.

Quote:
This prevented the bullet from flying off at random when the thong was let go;


And this statement.  Since the release on this design is instantaneous and/or adjustable depending on how far back the retention cord is held. 

In Thomas' design, the precise fold over of the pouch is always the same.  And in that design all three of his cords are joined.  In mine, the release is adjustable depending on how much of the release cord you take up in your hand.  This allows for windage or elevation adjustments depending on your style of throw, the weight of rock, etc....  No need for Kentucky windage anymore, or for adjusting your technique to reality instead of reality to your technique.   

Quote:
when fixed in the sling it could be so whirled round as to fly out as though from the string of a bow.


Yes because the bullet is held right on the edge of the cradle and releases instantaneously. 

Quote:
They used to send their stones through rings at a great distance, as targets, and were thus able to hit not only the head but whatever part of the face they aimed at.


Anyone capable of doing that with their sling design should be paid attention to.  The variable release on a traditional sling does throw shots off slightly whether we like it or not.  It's not a big deal if you aren't doing fine targeting but if you are, then the Achaean design would be a benefit to developing precise accuracy. 

In my design attached, I used I stiffened the cradle with a bit of wire.  There are multiple ways to do this design and this is just a quick one I was able to throw together in about an hour of work to try out for fun.  I like it, but on future experiments I would make the whole thing lighter in weight and more aerodynamic.  That said, this design works very well and it's elegantly simple.  I like the ability to adjust my release timing, but I think long term it would call for me to adjust my technique to the most instantaneous release possible so that sling error is reduced to a minimum. 

I'm rather used to the delayed release from 23 years of using it with my traditional slings.  And when I try this new design, I find out just how much delay there really is in a sling's release, since all my shots are going outside of where they were before.  Release delay is a big factor.  If you don't think so then try this new design and you'll feel and see the difference.   

I hope that this thread will encourage others to experiment with it.  I'm hopeful that someone will refine the design and develop some impressive accuracy.  I'm sure slings of this sort could be made with some real beauty and efficiency.

I think that there is a very high probability that what Thomas and I have stumbled on here is a version of the Achaean design.  Whether or not it is popular then or now, it has some clear advantages. 

Ben

Throwsticks Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzu32QSVpthgB2FraSmc0ag



 



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Re: Achaean Sling Design?
Reply #13 - Sep 5th, 2016 at 8:54am
 
Interesting...

How do they do with rifle spin?
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My daughters can figure-8...
 
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Re: Achaean Sling Design?
Reply #14 - Sep 5th, 2016 at 9:36am
 
i tried a similar sling today , i made it yesterday as fast as i could . i used 3 nylon strands and a piece of cloth instead of leather with minimal amount of sewing, a low quality contruction...
i didnt used it enough either, but i think that it releases better with a backspin than a riflespin.
and probably it puts less spin in comparison to the traditional design.

i made the release cord attached to the retention cord like Thomas/jax's design ( see the link posted by Whipartist ) , it seems that this way it has cleaner release.

it's nice to try new things but i cant see why this would be better than the simple design.
i ll make one more with better quality.
the feel of release is like when a stone slips out of the sling, there is no whip crack and the retention cord doesnt fly around after release.
until now different but not better
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