If you want to talk sport science, there is a reason the fastest pitchers in baseball pitch overhand, not sidearm. While a few side-armers have reached 100mph, they don't last long. Quarterbacks also throw overhand, javelins the same as well.



That is a video I did comparing an overhand fig-8 to an overhand throw. Its basically the same motion.

Also, one of the drawback of Balearic when going for distance is that as you increase your release angle up toward 45, instead of the competition oriented flat release, you compromise your power.

Not so with fig-8.

The Balearic style is a direct result of a 20m competition.
Google Assyrian Slingers, they are very clearly slinging overhand, because Balearic also doesn't work in a tight military formation, slinging down from a parapet...or up at one either.

Now now Mr. Harrop, you seem to be forgetting something. I did not mention baseball to argue overhand was less effective than sidearm. I mentioned baseball to support my thesis that the lower body is key to power. And let me tell you that Balearic sidearm is miles different than baseball sidearm which you are using to refute my claim.

Let's not forget that we are using a sling here with a stone in it.

Balearic sidearm is not specifically sidearm. It is Balearic sidearm which entails a different range of motion in perfect sync with the lower body to produce extreme power.

See Balearic sidearm is really a combination of overhand AND sidearm motion together in conjunction with the lower body. This is the secret to Balearic sidearm's power. It is also MUCH more ergonomically efficient than Figure 8. I suspect that's why you're elbow is giving you problems as you yourself admit Mr. Harrop.

As Parmenion says, "a good style is the one you can do repeatedly the same way(accuracy & consistency) without hurting your body."

See in Figure 8 style all the pressure is exerted on the elbow in a hinge action as you throw. In Balearic sidearm it is a fluid motion where every muscle and tendon is in harmony. Balearic is equal to the power of the whole body while Figure 8 is limited to the strength of the elbow even if the lower body is effectively used.

The Balearic throw also starts from behind, comes over the head and finishes in a side/ overhead combination. Because the throw starts from behind there is maximum time for the lower body to be fully utilized and is not limited by a hinging elbow as in Figure 8. This is equal to the "work" part of the physics power equation.

Also you are right, Figure 8 is better in line formation because it requires less space and it works better if you are throwing down from a castle as you say. So go ahead and have fun in your castle with all your lines of slinging friends that I guess hang out in castles with you? lol.

Mark-Harrop wrote on Feb 12^th, 2016 at 7:52am:

The fact that you think the Balearic style came from a 20m competition is shocking. It's been used for combat and hunting for thousands of years and you think its origins are for a 20m competition...

The fact that you think Balearic style cannot "throw upwards" at a target is also shocking. You just change the angle of rotation. You CLEARLY don't have a clue and should do more research before continuing to comment about the Balearic form..

I too enjoy a healthy debate Mark and I'll be honest you made me scratch my head for a second, but just a second

I'm standing firm that Balearic is more powerful and through my research AND personal experience I know it's also safer on the body than the power limiting hinging elbow of Figure 8 style.

I can basically sling with some competence, but I have much problem with "chasing the slack", so that my shots are really not quite as powerful as I'd like. I can see the point about the Balearic sidearm, but I find it hard to be accurate with it. I shoot helo+ overarm, but if the vectors aren;t just right, the shot is slack.

I like Huntsman's vid of himself shooting Balearic sidearm, in that he looks exactly like some of the Balearic guys.

And

We can argue this all day....

The proof lies in distance and speed.

HuntsmanSling, you have devoted a lot of time to the Balearic style and traditional sling making. I understand your attachment to it and passion for it.
In your (only) video, you claim 70m at 190kph.

I get about 2 seconds of flight time (I'm rounding down) so thats about 35m/sec....or about 125 kph or 77mph....give or take.

As far as Balearic style in combat and hunting, I don't buy it. When slinging was used in combat, it was a ranged weapon fired in volleys (like arrows) or in hit and run skirmishing. Anyone who has ever been on any kind of battlefield knows that you want to limit your exposure to enemy fire, so standing still twirling a sling around would probably get you an arrow in the chest. Same thing goes for hunting...you'll just spook the game.
As far as the magnus effect and accuracy, a rifle spin is the way to go. An overhand motion is the best way to achieve this, like with an American football.
...and its not my elbow, its my right shoulder. I'm 50 and have had 2 shoulder surgeries (not slinging related) and arthritis. But I still manage pretty good for an old man with a bad shoulder and unharmonious technique (speeds at end of video)


I suggest if anyone wants to prove their point, they make a video.

Talk is cheap... and we all have smartphones and the internet.

Tomas wrote on Feb 13^th, 2016 at 6:10am:


In overhand, as in Figure 8 style, the arm is working against gravity to come up and over all the while pulling up a weighty stone against gravity. This fight against gravity occurs with a bent elbow and thus results in greater pressures on the muscles, tendons, and ligaments. This pulling up against gravity to bring the stone up and over the back and down again is where the strain on the elbow and shoulder occur. Simultaneously this also results in decreased speed and a loss of power.

In Balearic form the arm does become bent but at that point the twist of the lower body is doing most of the load bearing work as it comes full circle in a more horizontal path rather than in a vertical path against gravity as in Figure 8 style. This is why Balearic shooting style is not only ergonomically most efficient but yields the greatest power most efficiently as a direct result.

I think this also answers your question Parmenion.

Mark-Harrop wrote on Feb 13^th, 2016 at 7:43am:

Here is a video of Luis Livermore, a Balearic slinging champion with international fame, who also "claims" to be throwing at 190 kph, yet he is using 200-250 gram stones, over a half pound. Simply amazing. He slings at 1:00 minute into the video. Considering that you can only throw 125 kph Mr. Harrop you might want to pay attention.



I have found another video clip of Luis Livermore launching stones out hundreds of meters into the ocean if you need to see that as well.

And my 70 meter throws in my personal video are not my maximum distance with a Balearic sling. Those throws are my maximum distance with THAT particular sling which is only 25ish inches in length. & if I angle up I can get another 20 meters on my throws but I sacrifice power which was the point of the video.

Everyone knows the longer the sling the longer range you have. With a 30 inch Balearic my range increases drastically, up to 180 meters and I drop my stone weight down to about 100 grams.

Mark-Harrop wrote on Feb 13^th, 2016 at 7:43am:

Ever hear of bravery? The Balearic slingers have a rich history of being drafted as skirmishers by both the Iberian Carthaginians and later the Romans. It's documented.

The below Balearic Island documentary & written citations of classical accounts from classical historians, including modern day historical Balearic Island archaeologists, all support my claims regarding the existence of Balearic slingers in combat AND the Balearic style's ridiculous range/power. They used a short sling for close combat, medium for medium, and a long sling for distance attacks, all using the Balearic form.

Since you once again refuse to do your own research on the Balearics, Mr. Harrop, (why don't you use your smart phone? lol)

Here is a historical account from 123 BC regarding the Roman conquest of the Balearic Islands by the Roman Gerneral named Quintus Caecilius Metellus and their fight against the defending Balearic slingers.

It's a translated documentary supported by Balearic Island archaeologists and credited historians on the subject.

Skip through the beginning of the video. The two key parts are from 7:17-11:41 & from 11:42-12:41 where it describes the Romans failing in their first invasion due to the Balearic slingers raining shots down on Roman landing craft, killing the men aboard and even sinking the ships themselves before reaching shore. These are shots up to 300+ meters. They used close range shots as well as the invasion fleet got closer to landing which is also documented.



Here is another nice summary of classical historians Strabo and Pliny describing the Balearic slingers as military combatants LONG before any silly 20m competition that you incorrectly believe is the origin of Balearic shooting style Mr. Harrop.

(Ethan Leuchter)

I hope this sheds some light on the power, range, and speed of the Balearic slingers. I hope it also puts to rest any notion that the Balearic style originated from some 20m shooting spectacle of modern times. At this point, if anyone denies the documented rich history of Balearic slinger's being used in combat then you are simply in denial of the TRUTH.

Mark-Harrop wrote on Feb 13^th, 2016 at 7:43am:

I have proven it with a video and videos of other Balearic slingers who are professionals. Why don't you show us a video where you aren't slinging a dog toy in a 20 ft apartment...

And saying that the spiral on an American football proves that overhand is better for the Magnus effect, lol! Have you even thrown a football before? it has laces so the hand can deliver the spin on the ball with the follow through, and again, an overhand throw with a football is miles different than a sling with a stone in it. Stop comparing completely different things to try to squeeze some sense into your dis-proven theories regarding figure 8...I'm not denying figure 8 has ballistic spin, just not near that of Balearic slingers.

If you want to see the amount of spin you get with the Balearic form take a tennis ball. Draw a fat black line around the tennis ball. Throw the sucker and you can see the ballistic spin.

Thearos wrote on Feb 13^th, 2016 at 11:52pm:


Indeed. I completely respect the Figure 8 style in its own right but it's like using a .38 special vs a .44 mag when compared to the Balearic style.

I think that the debate that is happening here is not being viewed in the right way, through personal experience figure-eight works best with lighter slings and ammo, whereas balearic-sidearm is much more heavy ammo and slings. thus they both have they're place in the use of slinging, whether one is better than the other is for each person to decide what works best for them. Sure some parts of figure-eight are better for range and certain parts of balearic-sidearm are better for power, but what does it matter if one way works better for you use it. Just my 2 cents