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Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment (Read 8400 times)
Thearos
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #15 - Aug 24th, 2016 at 8:37am
 
C_A: " if you can hit the outer ring (you are shooting uphill) then the inner ring - elevation advantage and shooting downhill - will definitely be able to reach you."-- That's a crucial point, actually.
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #16 - Aug 24th, 2016 at 11:25am
 
next time you're in the uk -we could find us a hill fort and do some experiments.
david's always up for nonsense like that Thumbs Up
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #17 - Aug 24th, 2016 at 4:37pm
 
what i wanted to ask: can't the defender's slingers  hit their targets without exposing themselves to the " steady stream of arrows and rocks into that gap" ?
slinging behind or over rampards and palisades  while they remain protected, this will lower accuracy but could work .
archers wouldnt be able to "hit" straight in the same manner, they would need to volley the arrows.
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #18 - Aug 25th, 2016 at 5:56am
 
yes that's possible, but think about how much ammo you not only waste, but give to the attackers to shoot back at you.

Plus the attackers move around so you can't just learn to blind target a specific area.

Realistically you'll need to aim.

While a high lob is effective, it's nowhere near as powerful as a targeted straight trajectory throw.
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Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #19 - Sep 11th, 2016 at 7:14am
 
We used to spend a lot of time slinging from an elevated "fort" (ok, it was a dam)

6:15 in the video, 'Castle Slingenstein"



Never had any issues slinging down. Takes a few throws to get dialled in, but its not difficult at all.

Same for slinging up...although the closer you get to straight up, the less power you have.
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #20 - Sep 11th, 2016 at 2:08pm
 
Although, if you are on top of a wall, you stand out against the sky nicely...plus, you can't have as many slingers in depth, so you don't have the same amount of rocks going back as you do coming in.
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #21 - Sep 12th, 2016 at 7:01am
 
Quote:
although the closer you get to straight up, the less power you have.

Not if you use underhand Smiley It's pretty much optimised for straight up Smiley

There is another aspect to ancient texts that hasn't been mentioned yet.
Transcription.

Bear in mind that All ancient texts were copied out by hand, often by monks, often by professional transcribers who worked for 'book' dealers.
Many of whom would have added, subtracted or changed small parts of the text. Either for convenience or because they thought the original was wrong.
Printing is a very recent innovation. So some of these 'historical' texts would have been copied out an translated hundreds of times.  Kind of like a very long game of chinese whispers.

Between the transcribers & translators very few texts (probably none)  actually remain in their original form. 

So applying practical knowlege and common sense becomes fairly important. Something most historians aren't actually qualified to do - the practical side of things I mean.
In short never take an ancient text entirely at face value Smiley 
What you read today is never going to be exactly what the original author wrote.
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Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
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Thearos
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #22 - Sep 12th, 2016 at 11:40am
 
I'd say Mr Aardvark mentions this once in a while. I'd say that "very few texts remain in the original form" is greatly exaggerated, though some post-modern scholars do believe that. In any case, there are pretty effective scholarly techniques to try to establish texts with at least some security: textual criticism and philology. The first works on the fact that there are multiple copies, some old, some new, some good, some bad; and that after by now over a thousand years of continous work on ancient languages, including about two centuries of high scientific standard, we have some idea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_criticism

https://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/A-kingdom-in-splinters-8106

I also wonder about historians not having practical knowledge. Practical archaeology and ethnoarchaeology are flourishing, and historians do like to find out about things. I know I do. An example: work on ancient agriculture. Here's Paul Halstead--

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2015/2015-07-05.html
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Thearos
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #23 - Sep 12th, 2016 at 5:28pm
 
So note that the text is a fragment of the Roman Annalist Claudius Quadrigarius, whose works have not survived, perhaps writing in the C1st BC. He's quoted by the Roman writer Aulus Gellius, writing in the C2nd AD. So there are two possible levels of corruption: transmission of Quadrigarius to Gellius, transmission of Gellius to us.

Here's the Latin. People might tell if anything looks wrong with the text (obviously corrupt, bits missing), or if the language is ambiguous. I think on both counts, it's OK.


QUINTUS CLAUDIUS in undevicesimo Annali, cum oppidum a Metello proconsule oppugnari, contra ab oppidanis desuper e muris propugnari describeret, ita scripsit: “Sagittarius cum funditore utrimque summo studio spargunt fortissime. Sed sagittam atque lapidem deorsum an sursum mittas, hoc interest; nam neutrum potest deorsum versum recte mitti, sed sursum utrumque optime. Quare milites Metelli sauciabantur multo minus et, quod maxime opus erat, a pinnis hostis defendebant facillime finditore.

2. Percontabar ego Antonium Iulianum rhetorem, cur hoc ita usu veniret quod Quadrigarius dixisset, ut contigui magis directioresque ictus fiant, si vel lapidem vel sagittam sursum versus iacias quam deorsum, cum proclivior faciliorque iactus sit ex supernis in infima quam ex infimis in superna.

Tum Iulianus, comprobato genere quaestionis, “Quod de sagitta,” inquit, “et lapide dixit, hoc de omni fere missili telo dici potest. ” Facilior autem iactus est, sicuti dixisti, si desuper iacias, si quid iacere tantum velis, non ferire.“ [5] Sed cum modus et impetus iactus temperandus derigendusque est, tum, si in prona iacias, moderatio atque ratio inittentisque praecipitantia qualicumque ipsa et pondere cadentis teli corrumpitur. ” [6] At si in editiora mittas et ad percutiendum superne aliquid manum et oculos conlinies, quo motus a te datus tulerit, eo telum ibit quod ieceris.”
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #24 - Sep 13th, 2016 at 9:36am
 
Um, Mr Aardvark-- you've posted in the wrong thread. In the case of the Livy transmitting Polybios, the problems are
1. What Polybios said (if we had the original, we'd be well off-- and we would know pouch and cords, probably).
2. The transmission of Polybios' text to Livy
3. What Livy thought it meant
4. What Livy wroge
5. The transmission of Livy's text to us
6. What we think Livy meant.

-- that's frankly a lot more stages. I freely admit bafflement.
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #25 - Sep 13th, 2016 at 12:53pm
 
Actually, if you use a fairly short sling, about 24 to 30 inches, (roughly 2/3 rds of a meter) and just lean back and throw upwards without any sort of wind up, you can get a good bit of force behind your throw.  Accuracy isn't too bad, either.  Provided you practice a bit. 

I have really scared some squirrels throwing like that.   Grin
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #26 - Sep 15th, 2016 at 2:08pm
 
lol oh yeah Smiley
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Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
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