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Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment (Read 8368 times)
Thearos
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Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Oct 11th, 2014 at 7:34pm
 
Aulus Gellius (C2nd CE author), quoting the earlier (much earlier) Roman historian Claudius Quadrigarius (9.1ff)

1 When Quintus Claudius, in the nineteenth book of his Annals, was describing an attack upon a town by the proconsul Metellus, and its defence against him by the townspeople from the top of the walls, he wrote these words:1 "The archers and slingers on both sides showered their weapons with the utmost vigour and courage. But there is this difference between shooting an arrow or a stone downward or upward; for neither missile can be discharged accurately downward, but both upwards with excellent effect. Therefore the soldiers of Metellus suffered far fewer wounds, and, what was of the greatest importance, they very easily drove the enemy back from the battlements by means of their slingers."

2 I asked Antonius Julianus, the rhetorician, why what Quadrigarius had said was so; namely, that the shots of missiles are closer and more accurate if you discharge a stone or an arrow upwards rather than downwards, in spite of the fact that a throw from above downward is swifter and easier than one in the opposite direction. 3 Then p155Julianus, after commending the character of the question, said: "His statement about an arrow and a stone may be made about almost any missile weapon. 4 But, as you have said, throwing is easier if you throw downwards, provided you wish only to throw, and not to hit a mark. 5 But when the direction and force of the throw must be regulated and guided, then, if you are throwing downwards, the control and command of the marksman are impaired by the downward impulse itself, such as it is, and by the weight of the falling missile. 6 But if you throw your weapon upwards, and direct hand and eye to hitting something above you, the missile which you have hurled will go to the spot to which the impulse which you have given bears it." 7 It was to this general effect that Julianus chatted with us about those words of Quintus Claudius.
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Bill Skinner
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #1 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 7:42pm
 
As far as archers, you can move your anchor point further back to the corner of your jaw if you are firing upwards, when you fire downwards, your anchor point is up by your ear, somewhere.

For slingers, the battlements get in the way, unless you forgo their protection and stand on them.  You can throw at something way out there pretty good, as they get closer, you are limited by the parapet.

Try this, Get on one side of a park bench, try to hit something on the ground in front of the other side of the bench.
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #2 - Oct 15th, 2014 at 1:02pm
 
There are people on this site (DM, C_A-- others ?) who actually have slung downwards from ramparts. I can't remember their remarks in detail, but believe that they did find it a bit hard to get used to. The Roman text seems to say that (to translate into our own concepts) drop / gravity adds to the difficulty of aiming.
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #3 - Oct 16th, 2014 at 9:28am
 
Correct, but they were standing on the ramparts of a hill fort.  If you have a parapet in front of you, it gets even more difficult.
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #4 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 4:12pm
 
Let us forget the parapet for a second, though for sure ancient walls had them and they got in the way. Is shooting downwards, wth sling and bow, harder in terms of accuracy ? And if so, why ? because you have to compensate for extra drop ? Because you don't know which direction to compensate in ?
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #5 - Aug 21st, 2016 at 7:10pm
 
I just did a bit of slinging (large-ish stones, short-ish sling) standing on a cliff edge and aiming at a bush. I expected shots to go much further for the same amount of force-- and I suppose they did, but I found aiming disconcerting and difficult. The cliff edge also did rather cramp my style.
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #6 - Aug 22nd, 2016 at 6:50am
 
no it's not harder, just takes a little getting used to - which ancient defenders would be.

I think in the final analysis I was actually more accurate defending than attacking. Defending was all downhill.
I do remember 4 head shots in a row at the 20 meter mark slinging into the bottom of the big ditch.
Even had a few bounce outs. Ie it hit the net hard enough to bounce back out.

rat man's got pete's book - he can dig out the final statistics.

But once you're used to it, I wouldn't say it was a problem. 

Can't answer for bowmen, but again - if you've trained for it - it shouldn't be an issue.
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« Last Edit: Aug 22nd, 2016 at 9:05am by Curious Aardvark »  

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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #7 - Aug 22nd, 2016 at 9:49am
 
interesting.

i ve slung downwards off  cliffs . at around -30 degrees i had no problem i may even was a little better. at much steeper angles there would be problems.

the main reason i think "it is more difficult" is because nobody trains lower than horizontal ,but everybody trains from 0 to 45 degrees, practice is much easier since angle is varying depending on distance and the body learns the mechanics of those angles.
probably those on the walls didn't train as they fought.

also i read somewhere about marksmanship that if you aim uphill or downhill you should aim lower than your target because your shot will go higher in both situations.
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #8 - Aug 22nd, 2016 at 10:53am
 
As i said - if you've practiced and it's the normal situation you sling in - there is no reason for it to be any harder slinging down than up.

I suspect there is a lot of relevant detail that hasn't been recorded.

ramparts and pallisades are what would make life difficult for the defenders, not the actual angle of release.

And if you have to step into  a gap to sling the attackers know where to aim, whereas they can move around and make it harder for the defenders to quickly take aim and fire at a moving target.

It's the fixed defences that cause the problems, not the firing angle.
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #9 - Aug 22nd, 2016 at 9:24pm
 
I didn't think about the crenelations actually making the defenders a target but it stands to reason that if you have to step into a gap to throw or shoot, then all that the attackers have to do is send a steady stream of arrows and rocks into that gap.  They don't even have to hit the defenders, all they have to do is make the defenders ineffective. 

The assault troops can set their ladders and climb the walls without having to worry about arrows and stones. And once they get to the top, the slingers and archers are not armed for a hand to hand fight.
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #10 - Aug 23rd, 2016 at 7:46am
 
Yeah it's one of the things we couldn't do at hodd hill.

I'd like to mock up a battlement and do an actual attack and defend at the same time with tennis balls or sock balls.


But it does limit how the defenders can shoot.
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #11 - Aug 23rd, 2016 at 10:07am
 
Did they have some type of log parapet on the hill forts?  I haven't been able to find out one way or the other.  Lots of suppositions, very, very few hard facts from excavations.
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #12 - Aug 23rd, 2016 at 10:25am
 
In the gaul village I'm taking part in constructing, we have a plank parapet on top of the "murus gallicus".
The best way I've found to sling over to a roman downway was apache style.
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #13 - Aug 23rd, 2016 at 12:08pm
 
There was a long discussion a while back. I wrote this

"As I remember from reading "Fire and Stone" by Christopher Duffy, on early modern siege warfare, the principles are that the attacker has the advantage, because he can resupply in everything (food, ammo), and because he can concentrate greater amts of firepower. So let's game this.

I assume that the outer ring has some form of stockade on top of the earthwork. I choose not to attack the gates, because they're death traps. The outer ring is held ? I choose a position from which I can concentrate fire (my own slingers, supplied abundantly from carts of slingstones and arrows), but out of the range of the second ring. I should be able to suppress the defenders on the outer ring: either kill them and drive them off, or make them hide behind the stockade. That allows me to move assault infantry (shielded) moving quickly through the beaten zone of slingstones from the inner ring until they get into the "shadow" or the dead zone of the first earthworks.

That bit is easy. The next bit is not. I want to do the following: 1. remove the stockade so that I can 2. move up slingers to suppress defenders on the inner ring, which will allow me to 3. bring up assault troops which will 4. kill the defenders trapped btw inner and outer ring and 5. storm the inner ring. BUT the outer ring has the following effects: 1. it keeps my own slingers a bit too far to suppress the defenders on the inner ring and 2. it allows the defenders in the inner ring to fire at my men as they take down the stockade and mass and 4. it is too narrow and cramped to allow me to concentrate slingers to fire close up at the inner ring, or move up troops. In other words, the outer ring segments and isolates the attacker and prevents him from using any superiority in numbers and ressources. In addition, the inner ring allows the defenders to fire at my assault troops while they chase and try to kill or shoot down the defenders on the outer ring or in the ditch-- maximum tactical discomfort: I will fail to eliminate the outer ring defenders and lose men.

Therefore, I must find a solution to bring up more firepower. The traditional means of large armies has been to construct a mound, earthen platform, timber platform, anything, that allows me to mass a large number of missile chuckers, close enough and dense enough, to overwhelm the defenders in the exchange of missiles. This could be a heaped-up mound against the outer ring, or an assault tower, or a scaffolding + wooden platform. This will allow me to do to the inner ring what I could do easily against the outer ring, mass fire and suppress defenders and move up assault troops with ladders, etc.

If I don't have time, manpower, money for this kind of siege works (and they can take months: how do I keep my men fed and free from disease ?)-- I can try other things (scaling the *strongest* point of the defences by surprise, diversionary attacks, infiltration by small groups of elite troops who seize the gate, fire to burn down the outer stockade and overwhelming the inner ring defenders by long distance sling fire while assault troops seize the outer ring under the curtain of suppressive fire) but they take lots of people who know what they're doing."

From this thread
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1363016879/0
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Re: Claudius Quadrigarius on slinging downwards / upwards (and Gellius' comment
Reply #14 - Aug 24th, 2016 at 5:35am
 
okay to start with if you can hit the outer ring (you are shooting uphill) then the inner ring - elevation advantage and shooting downhill - will definitely be able to reach you.

Defenders have a significant advantage of range.

To attack a hillfort I would always work attacking slingers in pairs with a dedicated shield man.

This way You keep your overall mobility while having the same defensive abilites as the defenders - who have no effective mobility.

You effectively negate the advantages of the defenders while maximising your own advantage of mobility.

You also need to factor in just how steep the sides of most hill forts were.

It nearly killed david just walking up the hill to the fort. Yes our ancestors would have been a lot fitter than most modern men. But still can't run at any noticeable speed up a steep slope. And the attackers have the range to attack anything on the approach hill.

It's not just the outer and inner ramparts you have to deal with but the physical nature of the hill itself.

Obviously once you're at the top and established a shield wall. the situation changes. But if the defenders spot your initial approach - you are in deep excrement.

So you need to factor in the range of the defenders and the possibility of the attackers using mobile shields.
They weren't idiots - some one in every tribe would have thought of it.

Plus if it were me, I'd have the ditches planted with dog roses and spikes below those. And spike every slope as well.
Once you've got the buggers in the bottom of the ditch - they are sitting targets.

We did blind shooting. And while it's almost impossible for an attacker to hit anything he can't see - it's actually really easy for the defender to hit a hidden target in the bottom of a ditch.
As long as you can see where your shots are going - you can easily hit a target you can't see - as long as you know where it is.
Well I could Smiley   
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