Slinging.org Forum - The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ?

Mark-Harrop Funditor Offline cracker of zombieskulls Posts: 553 worldwide Gender:	Re: The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ? Reply #30 - Aug 26^th, 2014 at 6:10pm Just in case…. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
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Thearos

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Re: The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ?
Reply #31 - Aug 26^th, 2014 at 6:42pm

Anyway, it goes without saying that this idea of a new style of slinging should be greeted with the utmost scepticism by people on this forum: test to destruction. At most, it will survive as an experiment; at best, it will join the pantheon of weirdly named slinging styles. Most likely, it will be a trick in the toolbox of some slingers.

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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ? Reply #32 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 2:15am (Confirmation bias is, I think, refusal to take into account new data. Disagreement with alternative interpretations of the same data is plain old polemics, which can be good for the furthering of knowledge).
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Mark-Harrop

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Re: The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ?
Reply #33 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 6:31am

I posted a link that explains, in detail, what confirmation bias is.

You can't even be bothered to read it and instead, post what you think it is.

Grin

If you can't grasp the simple fact that Makron (and his contemporaries) were fooling around with perspective foreshortening to make his paintings more interesting to sell more pottery…and you insists that he was a technical illustrator interested in accurately portraying correct Greek slinging technique, in a circle motif, on a vase….. I don't really know what to say.

I wish you luck in your studies, may you find what you are looking for and make all your data fit your presuppositions.

Polemics don't seem to work here either. When, in the face of overwhelming common sense, one party puts his virtual fingers in his ears and goes la la la la la la…..

Well, thats not good for furthering anything.

We would be better served teaching people how to correctly plant their base foot in preparation for a strong throw, instead of fabricating dubious techniques that come from our favorite vase painting.

Thats just my opinion based on decades of training people in real martial skills, not martial arts that charge $150 per head for a seminar or seek to profit from a ranking system.

What do you base your opinion on?

An illustrator who sells sword-training seminars and illustrated books and your feelings?

Even the title of this thread, "The Makron position, a new way of slinging" is misleading, because you are deducing the movements of a an entire technique based on a static position.

The drawbacks in your logic have already been explained and not just by me. If there is a flaw in my logic, please…enlighten.

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Re: The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ?
Reply #34 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 7:41am

Okay - Thearos. We're not disputing that you may indeed have developed a style of slinging unique to you.
Most of us have our own peculiar quirks and styles.

And if it improves your slinging, then great, that's a good thing. You've been stuck on the 25 meter mark for a long time now.
To finally find a technique you're happy, with that improves your distance is great Thumbs Up

What we're saying is that you simply can't deduce your entire new technique from that picture, on that vase/cup with any kind of historical veracity.

Nobody is saying you haven't invented a unique style of slinging - just that the picture on the vase does not depict it in the detail you seem to think it does.

That's the issue - not the slinging style itself.

There are a number of slingers who use the face away from the target technique. Larry bray uses one as does timpa and no doubt others.

And that you used the picture as a basis for developing your technique, is also not in question.
Inspiration comes in a variety of forms, for all of us.

But that the slinger depicted is about to perform the same technique as you use. That's highly debateable.

IF you want a tie that connects you to slingers through the ages - then simply making, owning or using a sling does that in spades. There are so few slingers left in the world today that just being one is the strongest connection you can have to our sling wielding ancestors.

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Re: The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ?
Reply #35 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 10:27am

curious ...das selbe gilt dann aber auch für alle anderen Stile. Auch diese sind von Bildern abgeleitet oder frei erfunden. Ausgenommen der balearische Stil oder Stile aus dem Anden Bereich. Sorry, die meisten wursteln sich ihren eigenen Stil zusammen. Doch wie erfolgreich sind sie wirklich?? auf jedenfall doch oft sehr zweifelhaft. Sie werden zitiert bis es weh tut. Vielleicht fängt man einfach einmal an von denen zu lernen die es auch heute noch sehr gut können.

Die Makron Tasse mit dem Slinger zeigt mehrere funktionale Techniken. Darüber hinaus ist es dem Künstler sehr gut gelungen viele kleinigkeiten auf einer begrenzten Fläche darzustellen. Der Beutel mit denn Steinen gehört zu einem Slinger. Wie hätte man ihn noch darstellen können? So wirkt er als wäre er von der Schulter gerutscht. Das ist durchaus glaubhaft.
Besonders die Stellung des Daumens deutet auf eine Helikopter Methode. Sie ist nämlich typisch. Beachtet man dieses Detail nicht, kann es passieren das der Stein beim andrehen herausfällt. Die Neigung der Schleuder ist ebenfalls bei einer Helikopter Methode Sinnvoll. Vor allem dann wenn man in einem spitzen Winkel schießen möchte oder von irgendwo oben herunter. Ich kenne noch ein weiteres Bild, wo fast die selbe körperhaltung dargestellt wurde

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Re: The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ?
Reply #36 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 11:18am

Tschüss Jaegoor-- gut, von Dir zu hören. Danke für die allgemeinen Bemerkungen, die mir höchst interessant sind.

Ja, das mit dem Daumen hattest doch Du mich bermerken lassen ! Danach fang ich an, das Bild ein bisschen näher zu gucken...

Ich habe diesen "Stil", mit leicht nach hinten gedrehtem Körper, nun vielmals probiert. Es gelingt mir zwar gut, ist aber keine Wunderlösung meiner Slingen-probleme ! Gute Kraft bei fast jedem Schuss stelle ich fest, fühle aber Stress im Ellenbogen und auch in den Knien (bin auch nicht mehr so jung…).

Die biomechanischen Ereignisse beim "Makron-Stil" sind auch schwer zu beschreiben (beim Video sieht es ja ziemlich wie ein gewöhnlicher Helikopterschuss aus !)-- meistens würde ich sagen, dass der Körper plötzlich nach vorne sich öffnet und dem Schuss ein längeres Rennen erfordert.

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Thearos

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Re: The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ?
Reply #37 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 11:20am

Today's session, every shot done "Makron style". Very good results at 40-45m, getting straight whangs and giving much longer point blank range. But it is not a miracle solution, alas: it just gives the shots more power, which CAN work to improve accuracy. The key is the sudden opening out of left shoulder and chest, just before the pitch; careful timing necessary to avoid slack. It does put extra stress on shooting elbow and wrist, and both knees (remember to slightly bend the left knee even though most weight on right leg).

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Thearos

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Re: The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ?
Reply #38 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 11:33am

So: careful observation of a naturalistically represented image from the C5th (very skilfully inserted in the cup medallion); noting the detail of the position of the hand, which is obviously realistic and immediately makes sense in terms of biomechanics of slinging and can be paralleled in photographs and even videos, as David Morningstar observed (a non-slinging art-historian would not have picked this up); recently, experimenting based on the more surprising position of the feet, with a parallel ancient image, and parallels from modern photographs and videos. This is my methodology; the aim is to see if the position of the feet (and consequent position of the body) is as realistically and naturalistically represented as the cock of the hand.

If the hypothesis is correct, it is interesting as part of an exploration of the body in RF painting, and for slingers, it gives a little trick-- face slightly away from the target. Admittedly, the BM cup shows BOTH feet pointing away from the target (which, by the way, is also feasible).

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Re: The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ?
Reply #39 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 11:40am

Quote:

The key is the sudden opening out of left shoulder and chest, just before the pitch;

are you forgetting the fully loaded slingstone pouch you've got hanging off your left upper arm ?

That's obviously not something the depicted slinger would have done.

Anyway, you're obviously determined to over anylyse and ignore any reasonable arguments.

Good luck to you Thumbs Up

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Thearos

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Re: The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ?
Reply #40 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 11:44am

I suspect the pouch is squeezed in the crook of the elbow and used in the swing, or it could drop down to the left hand and be balanced there. Fundibularius tried and said it could work.

Anyway, I must confess to be pleased here. I don't know many art historians who would note a detail in a painting and go outside to try it themselves ! I must admit that slinging being so cheap does help-- I would love to be able to experiment with a lot of things, but to be able to do them at a level of quality takes too much time and expense (for instance archery, which does really intrigue me, or the art of throwing a javelin with an amentum, on which I read David Morningstar carefully). Slinging-- a spool of string, 1-hour of braiding and weaving, a pile of rocks, then my three go-to sling sites: a lake with pebbles, a sea beach with pebbles, a cliff with good stones (and which in on an ancient fortification site: I have found good round stones, among all the jagged cliff fall, and wondered if these were ancient sling ammo).

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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ? Reply #41 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 11:46am (sudden opening does not mean "jerky" opening: smooth and fast, followed by whip-like pitch).
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Re: The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ?
Reply #42 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 11:49am

(what reasonable arguments ? The only ones I've seen have been "this image can't be realistic", repeated a million times, which begs the question based on presupposition. Give it a try-- in good faith ! You might be surprised. And it's always interesting to try something biomechanically new).

A parallel is when you see medieval images of e.g. people gripping swords a certain way which at first surprises some and intrigues others. Is it convention ? Did they not know how to draw ? Or is it people knowing how to draw and showing a real way of gripping ? You try it out, you don't say "hey sometimes they drew ducks as big as houses".

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Morphy Slinging.org Moderator Offline Checkmate Posts: 8102	Re: The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ? Reply #43 - Aug 28^th, 2014 at 2:26pm I have no dog in this fight but I also question the ability to discern an entire throwing motion from a static starting position. That's not to say you are wrong, it just means you can't know if your right.
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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: The "Makron" position: a new way of slinging ? Reply #44 - Aug 29^th, 2014 at 1:09pm Sure-- it's still worth the experiment.
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